Your situation was hardly as extreme, but I cannot really find too much fault with your AA fold, and for what it is worth that was a much more interesting hand to discuss then any of the OPs ramblehands...
I have to agree with that, your thread steal turned into a much better discussion than the OPs bad beats ever could have. Well done.
Monteroy, you said you ran the hands through a few scenarios, did you find one where AA was almost +EV? At what point did KK become a +ev fold?
While I am inclined to agree that the preflop folding of AA discussion is more valuable, the OP is new...give him a break. Not everyone is a pro..and the forums are here to promote discussion of all aspects of poker..
/sermon
Folding Aces preflop....still not in my vocabulary.
Hmmm, played around a bit more and I did find 1 situation where you fold AA. If and only if the 2 big stacks are even and both all in. (which was not the case here) Even a gap of 10k between the big stacks moves AA back into a call.
Other than that unless the big stack raises and the other stack just calls you are pretty much limited +ev wise to KK+
Hmmm, played around a bit more and I did find 1 situation where you fold AA. If and only if the 2 big stacks are even and both all in. (which was not the case here) Even a gap of 10k between the big stacks moves AA back into a call.
Other than that unless the big stack raises and the other stack just calls you are pretty much limited +ev wise to KK+
How about scenarios where your stack is ultra tiny say 30,000 to 25,000 to 300. My gut feel is that also can be a determining factor (though not in this situation).
While I am inclined to agree that the preflop folding of AA discussion is more valuable, the OP is new...give him a break. Not everyone is a pro..and the forums are here to promote discussion of all aspects of poker..
/sermon
Folding Aces preflop....still not in my vocabulary.
Issue is more his inability to post the bad beats in the correct forum. You know, the one titled Bad Beats
The fact that they were all utterly mundane and routine did not help I admit when determining the level of snarkiness in a reply.
hehe..true enough Mont. though..technically they aren't really bad beats when he is getting beat by the best hand are they? He is wanting to "guard" against them..which..I am not sure is possible is it? I guess you could fold everything that isn't aces...maybe better suited for "strategy"?
How about scenarios where your stack is ultra tiny say 30,000 to 25,000 to 300. My gut feel is that also can be a determining factor (though not in this situation).
base on the original post, he's in the BB.
So I ran the scenarios base on him having 1500/2000/2500/3000 before posting (and adjusting the relative stacks of the 2 opponents).
Based on the action described raise/shove anything < 3k before posting is always a fold.
if only one of the players act, then AA is a call.
How about scenarios where your stack is ultra tiny say 30,000 to 25,000 to 300. My gut feel is that also can be a determining factor (though not in this situation).
Issue is more his inability to post the bad beats in the correct forum. You know, the one titled Bad Beats
The fact that they were all utterly mundane and routine did not help I admit when determining the level of snarkiness in a reply.
nothing wrong with my ability to read forum titles thank you. I posted this here not only because I was frustrated but mostly because I was looking for tips on how to avoid this situation in contrast to inevitable bad beats.
I have learned a bit from reading the replies, partly I've been trying to study my own patterns of thought when holding aces, and trying to detect similar betting patterns in the final stages of tournaments and partly I've toned down the way I play TJs to QKs preflop, I limp much more, especially from early positions and I fold hands in this range with greater ease. For me this is an important topic I need to study to improve my playing and I don't see why it can't fit in this forum
hey richard, try posting a HH with some reads on your opponents and there might be one or two people here who can offer some useful advice. good luck on the tables.
monty (and hobbes but i think you figured this out already),
* at 20/10/0 AA is profitable but i'm not sure if it is measurable
* at 400/200/25 is barely a call
* at 2000/1000/200 AA is a stronger call
* at 10000/5000/1000 any 2 is a call
in general, as the BB's M shrinks it shifts to a much stronger +$ev call. on the other hand, if you vary the opponents' stacks and make them larger and closer together, calling is much less +$ev. from the situation posted, it was a moderate +$ev call but if he had an M of something crazy like 100 it would be a fold (but again, if your opponents are willing to get all in with Ms over 1000 with the hands they had, they are insane)
hey richard, try posting a HH with some reads on your opponents and there might be one or two people here who can offer some useful advice. good luck on the tables.
monty (and hobbes but i think you figured this out already),
* at 20/10/0 AA is profitable but i'm not sure if it is measurable
* at 400/200/25 is barely a call
* at 2000/1000/200 AA is a stronger call
* at 10000/5000/1000 any 2 is a call
in general, as the BB's M shrinks it shifts to a much stronger +$ev call. on the other hand, if you vary the opponents' stacks and make them larger and closer together, calling is much less +$ev. from the situation posted, it was a moderate +$ev call but if he had an M of something crazy like 100 it would be a fold (but again, if your opponents are willing to get all in with Ms over 1000 with the hands they had, they are insane)
That final bit is sort of the spice of the situation, and it is something I do see variations of once in a while, namely the requirement that multiple opponents being utterly insane create scenarios that are tricky to figure out because by default it is hard to imagine such insanity existing.
Saw it a lot on Crypto satellites where I think many of the players had no idea what a bubble meant. I watched in a 50 seat sat with 52 left the 3rd guy in chips ( who could turn off his computer and make it) do a 40 BB shove into the first guy in chips, as people with below 1 BB watched.
Was it AA/KK, no the 3rd place guy had AQ 1st place guy did not care since he could not lose even if he lost so he called with 48o and won. Then the AQ guy spent a couple minutes calling the other guy a donk from the rail, while many micro stacks hailed them both as their heros, particularly AQ boy.
If I was sitting there with KK and 1 BB with my blind coming up in a few hands I am not sure what I would even do since obviously the 3rd place guy would have to have AA to make that play and even then it was very wrong.
I have no idea how one can even account for this type of extreme multiple insanity required play, but it does happen at times.
Comments
I have to agree with that, your thread steal turned into a much better discussion than the OPs bad beats ever could have. Well done.
Monteroy, you said you ran the hands through a few scenarios, did you find one where AA was almost +EV? At what point did KK become a +ev fold?
/sermon
Folding Aces preflop....still not in my vocabulary.
Other than that unless the big stack raises and the other stack just calls you are pretty much limited +ev wise to KK+
How about scenarios where your stack is ultra tiny say 30,000 to 25,000 to 300. My gut feel is that also can be a determining factor (though not in this situation).
Issue is more his inability to post the bad beats in the correct forum. You know, the one titled Bad Beats
The fact that they were all utterly mundane and routine did not help I admit when determining the level of snarkiness in a reply.
base on the original post, he's in the BB.
So I ran the scenarios base on him having 1500/2000/2500/3000 before posting (and adjusting the relative stacks of the 2 opponents).
Based on the action described raise/shove anything < 3k before posting is always a fold.
if only one of the players act, then AA is a call.
nothing wrong with my ability to read forum titles thank you. I posted this here not only because I was frustrated but mostly because I was looking for tips on how to avoid this situation in contrast to inevitable bad beats.
I have learned a bit from reading the replies, partly I've been trying to study my own patterns of thought when holding aces, and trying to detect similar betting patterns in the final stages of tournaments and partly I've toned down the way I play TJs to QKs preflop, I limp much more, especially from early positions and I fold hands in this range with greater ease. For me this is an important topic I need to study to improve my playing and I don't see why it can't fit in this forum
monty (and hobbes but i think you figured this out already),
* at 20/10/0 AA is profitable but i'm not sure if it is measurable
* at 400/200/25 is barely a call
* at 2000/1000/200 AA is a stronger call
* at 10000/5000/1000 any 2 is a call
in general, as the BB's M shrinks it shifts to a much stronger +$ev call. on the other hand, if you vary the opponents' stacks and make them larger and closer together, calling is much less +$ev. from the situation posted, it was a moderate +$ev call but if he had an M of something crazy like 100 it would be a fold (but again, if your opponents are willing to get all in with Ms over 1000 with the hands they had, they are insane)
That final bit is sort of the spice of the situation, and it is something I do see variations of once in a while, namely the requirement that multiple opponents being utterly insane create scenarios that are tricky to figure out because by default it is hard to imagine such insanity existing.
Saw it a lot on Crypto satellites where I think many of the players had no idea what a bubble meant. I watched in a 50 seat sat with 52 left the 3rd guy in chips ( who could turn off his computer and make it) do a 40 BB shove into the first guy in chips, as people with below 1 BB watched.
Was it AA/KK, no the 3rd place guy had AQ 1st place guy did not care since he could not lose even if he lost so he called with 48o and won. Then the AQ guy spent a couple minutes calling the other guy a donk from the rail, while many micro stacks hailed them both as their heros, particularly AQ boy.
If I was sitting there with KK and 1 BB with my blind coming up in a few hands I am not sure what I would even do since obviously the 3rd place guy would have to have AA to make that play and even then it was very wrong.
I have no idea how one can even account for this type of extreme multiple insanity required play, but it does happen at times.