Bankroll Management - Handling Loses

When you start a session, do you set an amount that you are willing to lose and if you reach it stop playing or do you just play until you think its time to stop?

The reason I ask is I think this is one of the problems I have because I often will build up a nice bankroll over several days or weeks then take a serious hit to it in one bad day. I am just curious to see what other people do.
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Comments

  • for live games, I usually bring 300 x BB as my bankroll (three max buy-ins); luckily, I have only once had a loss over 300BB in a single session (which included a tournament - around 50BB); I think it really depends on how you are playing that day; if you are down because of bad play or bleeding chips vs suckouts, then I would likely keep playing (suckout situation). if your mind is not on the game and you are losing because of bad play, better to leave once you come to this realization.

    I also usually only play for a predetermined amount of time and leave when its time to go. My sessions are usually from 4 - 6 hours max. Sometimes I do cut my game short if I am up a certain amount (around 200BB), which I know is not a sound idea, but if its near the end of my session anyways, I may just leave to call it an early night.
  • I'm curious as to what you mean by bankroll -- it should be next to impossible to lose a large portion of your bankroll in one day if you have an appropriate bankroll for the limits that you are playing.
  • GTA Poker wrote: »
    I'm curious as to what you mean by bankroll -- it should be next to impossible to lose a large portion of your bankroll in one day if you have an appropriate bankroll for the limits that you are playing.

    I guess I use that term a little loosely as I don't really practice proper bankroll management and play games way higher than I should. But I will usually try to have at least 300x BB in my account before I am playing. I will often take money out of my account instead of just leaving it in there to build up as I am worried I will do something stupid with it. I know that sounds retarded, but I probably like to be overly cautious.
  • GTA Poker wrote: »
    I'm curious as to what you mean by bankroll -- it should be next to impossible to lose a large portion of your bankroll in one day if you have an appropriate bankroll for the limits that you are playing.

    Do you have a daily limit you would lose before you would call it a session? personally, I find 300BB an adequate bankroll for any given session and my sessions usually fluxuate historically between +250BB and -150BB, with the majority (unfortunately) close to flat. Only one outlier in the -300BB range.
  • My live loss is usually 2-3 buy ins of 300 for 5/5. I find that for most of the games I play no one ever buys in for the full amount (max 500) so I am fine with that. If I am at fallsview I usually do the max issue.

    I find if I am in more than 2 buy ins (basically on my third) I should have stopped at my second because it is never a good day....most days I never even have to use more than 1 buy in.

    However my stop is 1-2 buy ins depending on the game. I am to double up and then I leave. I work full time so there is no need for me to pull all nighters (although I have). I find within 2-3 hours I am at my quota and I leave. I try also to stay if by me leaving I am breaking the game, but I will announce early on my time limits...just so everyone is aware (at the casino its a different story...could care less)
  • Everyone has suggested it, but no one really wants to look inside enough to take the advice. Play, or leave based on your pyschological state, not the size of your wallet.

    Unless you are playing for a living (which most of us I assume are not)bankroll management is almost entirely based on psychology, especially outside a single session.

    In theory, when headed to a session you should bring as much money as you can possibly afford to lose. But I wouldnt suggest doing that right away. Not until you are 100% confident in your ability to put your emotions aside and think logically while evaluating your state of mind and your opponents abilities.

    You should also keep track of how long you can play before your play starts detiorating. Generally speaking, after 6 hours I evalute everything thoroughly, and I would suggest doing the same, perhaps even after 3 or 4 hours if you arent used to long sessions.

    Set your watch alarm if you have to, check in with your emotions every time you order a drink, go to the washroom, or have a cigarette. If youve been getting cold cards for 3 hours pack it in, not because you will continue to get bad cards (if you believe that, you might as well give up on poker now) but because your mind is probably wandering and hasnt been paying attention to opponents due to boredom.

    Again, if you lose a string of pots in a row it might be time to leave. Not because your "running bad" or "unlucky" but because you are probably going to be frustrated.

    I can see these problems arising online, because you cant really distance yourself from the game. The best I can suggest for that is have a plan to do something RIGHT after you decide its time to quit. Then you wont be drawn with tempation to just sit back down.
  • I am a 2-3 max buy-in kind of guy. After that, if its not your night, its not your night. Time to pack your bags and wait another day.
  • Jay Jay has a good point.....I used to be known to steam off a buy-in just because I suffered a bad beat.

    Currently, I don't mind re-loading multiple times, as long as I know I'm playing at my best. Sometimes I'll leave after one, because I'm not mentally there....tough part is knowing when that time is. Same rules online or live.
  • Thanks guys, great feedback so far!
  • I see alot talking about bankroll management from the "past time" point of view. I play for a living and use bankroll managment in a totally different way i think. When heading out for the day to play, i bring 200x BB, my session time is never brought into question(my longest session was approx. 32 hours(with small breaks for smokes and to eat), but generally my sessions vary so wildly that i never consider it.) Doing it for a living, i have everything calculated down to the last dollar as to what my $$ winnings goal per week must be(minimum). That includes +30% profit(15% goes straight to bankroll/ 15% goes to tournament entry fees) By only bringing 200x BB as my buy-in, i tend to bring my "A" game to every table i sit at. I have found that many, by bringing excess, wait till a last ditch effort to bring their A game once they realize they have just dipped into the 'reserve" pocket. Discipline is also a major factor, which, after years of playing, has served me well. But, table discipline should probably be a whole other post and thread all together. So, basically, in a nutshell. I think bankroll management differs widely from the "past time" player and the "for a living" player.
    When i was playing as a past time, bankroll management was easy, as long as my bills were paid, and i had excess, i played. Now, for a living, its all about making the "required" $$ amounts, keeping track of profit/loss on a daily basis and adjusting the figures daily to reflect it.
    One key i have found through out the years...Never play out of your comfort zone. The second you sit at a table limit out of your comfort zone, you go on the defensive, and the more skilled players will see it right away and exploit it. In the end, you will only regret the decission to try it.
  • xTiltThisx wrote: »
    When heading out for the day to play, i bring 200x BB, my session time is never brought into question

    what if you have a couple bad beats which wipe out your 200BB? do you just call it a day even if it is after a couple hours? you must have had a couple of these bad days? I have been down a couple sessions before over 200BB but was usually able to recover by the end of the day, or at least minimize my loss.
  • 2 things come into play before even sitting at a table, whether its NL or L. These are the only 2 factors that effect the cards i play and in esence the way i play. I will be the first to admit i am a meticulous and methodical player. I am not there to make friends, i am there for one reason only.
    In saying this, it comes down to this..if i have lost my days bankroll in a session, i will not chase it. Chasing only tends to lead you in the wrong direction. If i am truley playing my A game, then chances are i am going to hit my target in stead of bottoming out. But, if i do lose my days BR for that particular day, then the figures are recalculated for the remainder of the week, to then give me new targets the rest of the week.
    Instead, i simply leave, evaluate my play and the hands i have lost on/what cards beat me/how the betting process went and learn from it.
  • 200bb is one buy-in for most games I play (NL/PL) -- would be rather silly to lose one buy-in in a good game and go home...I could see setting a stop loss at 3 buy-ins if you think it affects your game mentally or emotionally, but 200bb seems very shallow.
  • Especially if you lose it in what looks like a juicy game. For full time I would never set an amount that low
  • GTA Poker wrote: »
    200bb is one buy-in for most games I play (NL/PL) -- would be rather silly to lose one buy-in in a good game and go home...I could see setting a stop loss at 3 buy-ins if you think it affects your game mentally or emotionally, but 200bb seems very shallow.


    I guess in Calgary at the $1/$2 $300 max, 200BB could disappear pretty quickly some nights. If he is making a decent living playing poker, must be doing something right.
  • Ok, i see the responses to the 200BB as a rule, for me anyway. I also see the mention of 1/2 tables. Ok, first off, to make a living at poker, unless ya got horseshoes surgically implanted in every region of the body, it pretty much can't be done at a 1/2 table..lol. My games are usually played at 10/20 or 20/40 tables. The 1/2 tables i used to play when first starting out, but, as the game got better and BR increased(from the business) the table limits had to increase. And, the level of play increased. It could be just me, but i think the 1/2 tables are more for new-low level players to hone their skill. But, in the end, as your play level increases, it is only natural to move up in limits.
    If you are a mid level or higher player, sitting at a 1/2 limit table will more then likely leave far more room for bad beats and immense suckouts. 1/2 limit tables leave way more room for pretty much any call with any 2 cards, hense way more major bad beats.
  • I have no clue what you are saying -- you play 10/20 and 20/40 limit with a 200bb stop loss? Now that just went from insanely low to insanely high.
  • Ok, so now the 200xBB rule does not apply to any limit of table? Ok, so lets put this in a situation type of scenario, and let me know how your take is on it. Heading out for the day/night to do, what is now your job and not just a past time. For scenario sake, lets say you need to make approx. $1500/$2000 per week(this is to pay the bills, maintain the BR, cover all card related expenses(fuel costs-a 3 hour drive each way costs money)food/drink/smoke while at work(playing cards) This includes a +30%. That translates into roughly $300-400+ per night that must be made. Would you head to a game and pop $500 on a table where the average stack is 2-3-or 4 times that(on average) and start your night off as small stack? Or jump on the table with $1000+ and be an even or higher stack average at the table.
    Personally, when i am on a table, whether it be regular game or tournament,casino or private game, my first sight is set on the small stack. A position i try never to be in. So, in general, i bring $4000 to the office to get the job done.
  • I think both GTA POker and I assumed you were talking about NL as 200bb is nothing. But losing or winning 200xbb in limit is pretty crazy.
  • before you sit down at the table, you need to establish 3 things....

    1. How much you want to make

    2. How much you want to lose

    3. How many hands you want to play

    when one of these 3 things occurs...leave, no questions asked

    cheers and gl
  • goodwooter wrote: »
    before you sit down at the table, you need to establish 3 things....

    1. How much you want to make

    2. How much you want to lose

    3. How many hands you want to play

    when one of these 3 things occurs...leave, no questions asked

    cheers and gl

    #1, no. #2, no. #3 sure.
  • xTiltThisx wrote: »
    Ok, so now the 200xBB rule does not apply to any limit of table? Ok, so lets put this in a situation type of scenario, and let me know how your take is on it. Heading out for the day/night to do, what is now your job and not just a past time. For scenario sake, lets say you need to make approx. $1500/$2000 per week(this is to pay the bills, maintain the BR, cover all card related expenses(fuel costs-a 3 hour drive each way costs money)food/drink/smoke while at work(playing cards) This includes a +30%. That translates into roughly $300-400+ per night that must be made. Would you head to a game and pop $500 on a table where the average stack is 2-3-or 4 times that(on average) and start your night off as small stack? Or jump on the table with $1000+ and be an even or higher stack average at the table.
    Personally, when i am on a table, whether it be regular game or tournament,casino or private game, my first sight is set on the small stack. A position i try never to be in. So, in general, i bring $4000 to the office to get the job done.

    Now I'm back to thinking that you are talking about NLH -- where are you playing 10/20 on a regular basis? I assume you are making $100/h+ (table time) when you do play 10/20 -- how many table hours a week are you playing?

    And yes, in NLH I want to cover the table unless I am taking a shot at a higher limit and want to get comfortable with the table before splashing around.
  • goodwooter wrote: »
    before you sit down at the table, you need to establish 3 things....

    1. How much you want to make

    2. How much you want to lose

    3. How many hands you want to play

    when one of these 3 things occurs...leave, no questions asked

    cheers and gl

    4. Know when to hold 'em

    5. Know when to fold 'em
  • goodwooter wrote: »
    before you sit down at the table, you need to establish 3 things....

    1. How much you want to make

    2. How much you want to lose

    3. How many hands you want to play

    when one of these 3 things occurs...leave, no questions asked

    cheers and gl

    most will disagree with #1 and #2; personally I don't see anything wrong with #1 if your competition is tough and you are getting tired; if it is still early in the session, I will keep playing.

    I play mainly 1/2 so for me 200BB is a little light.
  • Answer for #2 should be the same for everybody regardless of limit/skill level, or any other factor.
  • Okay, lets answer some questions here. In the scenario i gave earlier, i used those numbers because they are pretty close to what my goals are on a weekly basis. As for the #1,#2 & #3 list, the only thing that applies to me is #1. It's all about the money made. I don't think about losing hands, or how many hands per hour i want to try to play, or how long the session "should" be. I am there for my job...to make money, regardless of the time it takes, or how much per hour i am averaging.
    Generally it is on Limit tables as the amount of high stakes NL tables is no where near as high. usually the only NL tables are 1/2 , up here anyway, vegas is a whole other ball game. To say you want to make or average a certain amount per hour, when doing it for a living, really does not come into play. As the whole objective is to reach or extend past the "daily/weekly" target.
    yes i have had bad weeks where i barely made the target, but on the flipside, i have had nights where i hit my weekly target+ in a single session and IF i chose to go out another night and play, well the BR is changed so as not to put the weekly target in jeopardy. But, the joys of doing it for a living...i set my own hours, i play when ever i want, where ever i want and for however long i want. How can you go wrong with that kind of job.
    So, back to the BR ?? I usually bring 4-5000 as a rule, whether i load the entire thing onto a table at once varies, depending on the stacks that are at the table, the table limit etc. But, i never go to a casino thinking..I am going to go play 10/20...as when i get there, i prefer to look around at the tables, the players, the moods of the tables first, then decide the limit i will play. But a 4-5000k BR allows me the option of jumping on a higher table if i deem that particular table will be better to play at that night then the lower limit ones.
    And NO, i don't just go to a poker room and jump on the first table that has an opening. I prefer to "select" the table i think will be best for me.
  • Where in London do you play 10/20 or 20/40 limit? And where there are enough tables to actually have a selection?
  • London is strictly private games. Unfortunately, for me, if i want to play normal tables 10/20 or 20/40, i have to drive to casino's (usually either Rama or Niagra) Thats why i had to add $3-400 to the weekly target when i calculated everything needed(to cover gas).
  • Does Niagara have 10/20 and 20/40 limit games?
  • Like most casino's, the limit's of the tables varies to suit what the players are after. If there are none looking for a 10/20 game, then they won't have one. There will always be low limit tables, but if you can get enough together to fill a 10/20 or even a 20/40 table ( with some good buy-in's). Then usually pit will find a way to get a table going for you.
    I know once at Rama, all their tables were low limit, but we had 14 of us that wanted a 10/20, so after a few low limit tables had partially cleared, they merged the 2 tables into one and made the empty table a 10/20 for us. Being nice to the pit is always in your best interest. LOL
    OK..dinner done, time for some ZZZZZ's.
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