Legality of Home Poker Games
Hi -- I'm new to this forum.
I was going to post a question about the legality of home poker games but decided to do a search first to make sure I wasn't being a forum donk... and I found some older threads on the topic. But after reading them, I recognized that there was (in some cases) a lot of arguing and lack of clarity on the subject.
I realize that what I'm saying has already been said on this forum, and it's obvious that most people here are well-informed on the subject, but because the facts seemed buried within a lot of debate, I thought it would be helpful to have a quick summary of the law in Canada as it relates to home poker games... and I want to run it by you all to make sure I've got it right, so if I've got it wrong, please let me know.
Background:
I used to attend a friend's game which grew to two tables, then too many people started showing.
I have a big loft so we moved the game to my place, where we usually have 3 to 5 tables playing tournament style, about once a month or so. Everyone is a friend -- or friend of a friend. We play tunes, have fun, BYOB etc. so it's as much a social thing as it is a poker tournament. For the past two years, I've been hosting this game regularly in downtown Toronto. No rake, no entry fee... the buy-in, re-buys and top-ups go into the night's prize pool and if we, say, order pizza, it comes out of the prize pool.
What my research has found about the Law with respect to home poker games:
The relevant Criminal Code is Part VII " Disorderly houses, Gaming and Betting".
The relevant sections of Part VII are sections 197, 201, 204.
Section 197:
This section gives definitions. Under the definitions, a home used for a poker game would fall under the definition of either a "common betting house", or a "common gaming house", depending on how the game is run. Both of these fall under the more general definition of a "disorderly house", which also includes a "common bawdy-house".
Thankfully, Section 197 states that an exemption for these definitions exists when: (1) the keeper of the house does not get any portion of the bets, (2) he does he charge the participants of the games played therein any fee to play or enter the house.
Section 201:
This section simply states that any keeper of a common betting house or common gaming house is guilty of an indictable offense, as well as any persons found on the premises of such a house. The maximum sentence if found guilty is up to two years.
Section 204:
This is the critical part of the Criminal Code (for us) that allows home poker games to be conducted legally.
Two explicit exemptions are already found in Section 197's definitions relating to common betting/ gaming houses, but Section 204 provides a broader exemption to offenses under Section 201, by allowing for "private bets between individuals not engaged in any way in the business of betting".
Interpretation:
The interpretation of the Criminal Code, Part VII, s.197, s.204 used by the courts and by the police (as far as I know) is as follows:
Home games are legal, provided that the host ("house") doesn't make a business of it, that is, as long as the host (or anyone else involved) doesn't take a rake, charge an entry fee, make money from it, or profits from it in any way.
Question to the forum:
Is my take on this correct? This is what I'm going by... so I hope it's right.
Thanks.
I was going to post a question about the legality of home poker games but decided to do a search first to make sure I wasn't being a forum donk... and I found some older threads on the topic. But after reading them, I recognized that there was (in some cases) a lot of arguing and lack of clarity on the subject.
I realize that what I'm saying has already been said on this forum, and it's obvious that most people here are well-informed on the subject, but because the facts seemed buried within a lot of debate, I thought it would be helpful to have a quick summary of the law in Canada as it relates to home poker games... and I want to run it by you all to make sure I've got it right, so if I've got it wrong, please let me know.
Background:
I used to attend a friend's game which grew to two tables, then too many people started showing.
I have a big loft so we moved the game to my place, where we usually have 3 to 5 tables playing tournament style, about once a month or so. Everyone is a friend -- or friend of a friend. We play tunes, have fun, BYOB etc. so it's as much a social thing as it is a poker tournament. For the past two years, I've been hosting this game regularly in downtown Toronto. No rake, no entry fee... the buy-in, re-buys and top-ups go into the night's prize pool and if we, say, order pizza, it comes out of the prize pool.
What my research has found about the Law with respect to home poker games:
The relevant Criminal Code is Part VII " Disorderly houses, Gaming and Betting".
The relevant sections of Part VII are sections 197, 201, 204.
Section 197:
This section gives definitions. Under the definitions, a home used for a poker game would fall under the definition of either a "common betting house", or a "common gaming house", depending on how the game is run. Both of these fall under the more general definition of a "disorderly house", which also includes a "common bawdy-house".
Thankfully, Section 197 states that an exemption for these definitions exists when: (1) the keeper of the house does not get any portion of the bets, (2) he does he charge the participants of the games played therein any fee to play or enter the house.
Section 201:
This section simply states that any keeper of a common betting house or common gaming house is guilty of an indictable offense, as well as any persons found on the premises of such a house. The maximum sentence if found guilty is up to two years.
Section 204:
This is the critical part of the Criminal Code (for us) that allows home poker games to be conducted legally.
Two explicit exemptions are already found in Section 197's definitions relating to common betting/ gaming houses, but Section 204 provides a broader exemption to offenses under Section 201, by allowing for "private bets between individuals not engaged in any way in the business of betting".
Interpretation:
The interpretation of the Criminal Code, Part VII, s.197, s.204 used by the courts and by the police (as far as I know) is as follows:
Home games are legal, provided that the host ("house") doesn't make a business of it, that is, as long as the host (or anyone else involved) doesn't take a rake, charge an entry fee, make money from it, or profits from it in any way.
Question to the forum:
Is my take on this correct? This is what I'm going by... so I hope it's right.
Thanks.
Comments
But I think taking the pizza out of the prize pool could be a sticky subject... might I suggest just collecting $ separately, so you can definitively say that in no way was any monies removed from the prize pool?
Mark
I think even collecting the money to collectively order the food is an issue.. I'd suggest each player bring their own snacks pot-luck style... nothing stops a few guys from ordering pizza for the group..
But thats just me . . .
Well this is just me, but I never understood why people who aren't interested in a forum topic feel the need to question the legitimacy of the topic itself. Especially when they can just move on and read something else.
I think this question is legitimate.
I have up to five tables... that's close to 50 people in a loft apartment, with lots of noise, foot traffic, music and cash. If a player or a neighbour is unhappy for some reason and decides to call the police and they show up at my door, I want to know where I stand.
To say that it won't happen and not to worry about it doesn't tell me where I stand should it happen, as unlikely as that might be.
The other comments are all very helpful. For example, not paying for the pizza from the prize pool or having guests bring pot luck food are great ideas... thanks.
Like I said, I just want to be certain that a rake-free home game is legal, and simply confirming or denying that I'm okay with my games as I've described them is very helpful to me, as well as to my guests.
Again, thanks to everyone here.
Your home game sounds legal.
Taking money out for pizza doesn't make you a profit so I can't see how you would be charged.
The police seem to be interested in people who are making $100,000's of dollars from rake.
The money taken out of the payout is technically a rake... being used to pay for food.... This could be considered illegal.. I know it's nitpicky but it's not something you want to have to deal with at all, it's better to take in X dollars and pay out X dollars nothing missing.
Relax lightspeed. Nothing against you personally. As I said in my post, your game is approaching what I would consider the borderline (in size, anyway) where this is a legit concern. It is just that this crops up every few months or so. You pointed out in your OP that there are numerous threads on this already, and there always ends up beinga dispute at some point in the thread about what constitutes a "rake". This version might even have stayed rational enough, long enough, to justify being "stickied", who knows? Enjoy your game. By the way, what's the buy-in? And are you looking for more players?
So you want to come to my game eh?
I figure poker players are a pretty competitive lot, so if I post a feeler question and you raise me, then I may just come over the top. You called --and I figure it's a chop...
But seriously, you made a good point before... if I can manage to keep everyone happy, then that's probably my best bet.
Thanks.
BTW, the buy-in is only 20 uh, "roses" for 1000 chips, but there's unlimited rebuys if you bust out in the first hour (same amounts)... and at the end of the first hour is an optional top-up for the same amount.
Blinds start at 10-20 and go up every 15 min. but the unlimited re-buys can make for some interesting play in the first hour. Usually people like to top-up so we've got an average of 40-60 "roses" per player in the prize pool -- payout is top 4. Antes kick in after 90 minutes and blinds go up fast enough that the final table gets down to heads up usually by around 1 or 2am. There are also lots of side game action and things morph into a sort of big party by around that time. About 5 to 1 ratio guys to gals.
Just one word of warning I give to guys who come for the first time...
About 75% of the players understand advanced play (with a handful of semi-pro's who earn much their income from poker), and the other 25% are novices who are just there for a good time. Some of the serious players complain that the novices hurt their play with unexpected mistakes, bad calls and inevitable suckouts... but I say that part of the game is identifying everyone's skill level and adjusting play accordingly.
I know that seems obvious, but it's a subject that often comes up from the better players... so be forewarned.
There's another great 2-table home game (50 buy in) I go to weekly, all serious players -- most of us look at the game like a sort of training-ground for casino tournaments... so we have to focus on reads, table image and supressing our own tells -- and not just our betting patterns as in online play. Fallsview is just too far to drive to weekly, and I try to steer clear of the underground raked games, so I find the home games really fill a good niche in terms of regular practice against live players.
Kudos for using the search feature and welcome to the forum..but I FYP
You're asking two different questions, here are your answers:
1. It IS illegal
2. Not likely that anyone (police) would ever give a shit about your home game that takes money out for pizza
As an aside, if you're sooo worried about the legality and have found inconsistencies here..why the fuck wouldn't you ask a lawyer?
I'm sorry, I realize that you aren't intentionally being obnoxious..but this is the most boring/annoying question on this forum..I wish we'd start an insta-delete for all threads on this subject, or Graham..ask a damn lawyer and sticky his response to the top of the section with a disclaimer.
It's cold but I'm getting my lawn chair out anyway
Hey Zunni, I've got some Hot Chocolate in this thermos, you like marshmallows?
We've never met but....ugh...can you be my new best friend? That was awesome!
stp
you're all morons.
ps. and I mean this in the nicest possible way: try to die of AIDS
xoxo
For the record, I tried dying of AIDS prior to my marriage. It did not take. Sorry to have failed you in this way . . .
LOL..you're sfhawt sometimes. Well played.
I suspect we don't hear anything from the OP again.. I heard a rumour Kristy was learning how to remotely rip someone's head off and shit down their necks...
Now Zunni, if you find a link to how Kristy does that please post
It is not illegal. You can take money for pizza. In fact, you can take money for drinks, professional dealers, chip runners, a tournament organizer or anything else that can be legitimally seen as not taking a profit, and assuming the people you are paying, are legitimate and plan to pay taxes. If you want to rent a hall, or a room to play in, you can take it.
This is why its so hard for the police to shut down underground clubs. If simply taking a rake, even hand per hand, was illegal you wouldnt be able to find a single underground game. It often takes months for a G.C.O to figure out that a rake exceeds the cost of the game.
Bottom line is, you cannot take more from the game than it costs to run the game. And everyone involved must be fully aware, or easly capable of finding where and how the money is being distrubuted.
Seriously, talk to a lawyer.
Cletus the slack-jawed yokel, attorney at law.
So wrong I am wondering if it's a level.
Kristy….she’s not a skank. I think she should be offended by the remark.
She does not dance that well to ska - Skank (dance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
While her Guitar Hero skills are well known, she actually isn’t a guitar
Skank (guitar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
And if you were describing the kind of woman who sleeps with guys for money, drugs or popularity then you are wrong as well. She sleeps with guys out of pity. At least that’s what she told me.