I did a similar analysis with a more defined range for the bettor. I gave him a range of hands that both would have let the flop check through and now have a made hand on the turn. I excluded overpairs and Jx top pairs, but included sets who might be making an idiotic slowplay.
Vs that range and 5 random hands our equity is 31% to the bettor's 25%, and 8.5% for everyone else.
Since we have an equity edge a raise is clearly correct, and we don't mind any number of callers. If we are 3bet we can assume we are behind, and possible c/fold some rivers.
Vs a passive player's 3bet on the turn, I think we could fold river Q's, 9's J's 8's. A case could be made for folding any non-T or 4 if we know the bettor well enough (wouldn't 3bet a pair+draw).
It's important to note that while us just calling may let other hands in, increasing the size of the pot, that is not guaranteed. Therefore we may simply be missing out on value by ending up hu on the river with the bettor, where we need to bet our boat and might not even get called, let alone raised, by many of the bettor's possible hands (that would certainly have called the turn c/r.)
It's important to note that while us just calling may let other hands in, increasing the size of the pot, that is not guaranteed. Therefore we may simply be missing out on value by ending up hu on the river with the bettor, where we need to bet our boat and might not even get called, let alone raised, by many of the bettor's possible hands (that would certainly have called the turn c/r.)
Valid point, though highly unlikely at the 2/5 limit game. Most players will spend 1 big bet on the turn to try to hit their draw on the river, so 6 players folding is almost certainly not going to happen. Though 1-2 folds is certainly possible.
Valid point, though highly unlikely at the 2/5 limit game. Most players will spend 1 big bet on the turn to try to hit their draw on the river, so 6 players folding is almost certainly not going to happen. Though 1-2 folds is certainly possible.
Well, 5 folds is possible too, because that's what happened to the OP
And since they're inclined to call, they may call with decent draws anyway, and each of their calls can then make us twice as much.
Since we have an equity edge a raise is clearly correct, and we don't mind any number of caller
"Since we have an equity edge, a raise is clearly correct as it will force everyone who is putting in negative equity to fold."
Make sense? Nope.
Having an equity edge means that we are trying to maximize the NUMBER of bets that are entering the pot. If you think that raising will do that, then you do it. It's not a 'cause and effect' relationship.
"Since we have an equity edge, a raise is clearly correct as it will force everyone who is putting in negative equity to fold."
Make sense? Nope.
Having an equity edge means that we are trying to maximize the NUMBER of bets that are entering the pot. If you think that raising will do that, then you do it. It's not a 'cause and effect' relationship.
Yeah, I may not have been entirely clear there. I really meant that a raise cannot be wrong. There is a time that one would want overcalls instead of the raise. On this board, however, anyone calling is drawing live against our hand. Many of those hands will call two cold, either correctly or incorrectly. If you want 5 overcalls for one bet, don't you want 5 overcalls for 2 bets?
By wrong I mean it cannot be -ev given the ranges assigned to the opponents, which I believe are fair. It may not be the highest possible ev, of course that's what we're debating.
The correct play is to not play 2/5 at BCC where its a horrible game to start with. How do you fold preflop, your always getting odds. If you want to play bingo with 6 other players you can visit my grandma on Wednesdays with her friends and win a toaster or slippers.
The correct play is to not play 2/5 at BCC where its a horrible game to start with. How do you fold preflop, your always getting odds. If you want to play bingo with 6 other players you can visit my grandma on Wednesdays with her friends and win a toaster or slippers.
+1
although my first couple of months of B&M was at BCC 2/5 limit, before i realized the game is a crapshoot on steriods. save your money and maybe play some 5/10, even then, it's still a crapshoot.
second, fold pre. yes you're getting huge odds to call, but 10 4 off? if flop comes 10 high, then what? c/c? hope to hit a 4 on the turn? save your $3 to tip the waitresses or something. junk hands like that don't justify a SB complete. you're playing OOP with a hand that has almost no possibility to make the best hand in a multiway pot. but then again, everyone sitting at a 2/5 game has that same "pot odds" mentality, which is the reason the games are crapshoots
as for the actual hand, the turn is a definite c/r, c/c-ing is horrible. you're giving someone behind you with a bare 9 correct odds to call for their OESD.
as for the river, i like your lead, but you should've definite 3bet it. he doesn't stand to have a set, and if he had J4 or 84 he would've bet the flop so jam away.
although my first couple of months of B&M was at BCC 2/5 limit, before i realized the game is a crapshoot on steriods. save your money and maybe play some 5/10, even then, it's still a crapshoot.
second, fold pre. yes you're getting huge odds to call, but 10 4 off? if flop comes 10 high, then what? c/c? hope to hit a 4 on the turn? save your $3 to tip the waitresses or something. junk hands like that don't justify a SB complete. you're playing OOP with a hand that has almost no possibility to make the best hand in a multiway pot. but then again, everyone sitting at a 2/5 game has that same "pot odds" mentality, which is the reason the games are crapshoots
as for the actual hand, the turn is a definite c/r, c/c-ing is horrible. you're giving someone behind you with a bare 9 correct odds to call for their OESD.
as for the river, i like your lead, but you should've definite 3bet it. he doesn't stand to have a set, and if he had J4 or 84 he would've bet the flop so jam away.
I like the flop check. I HATE the turn call. That is a must check raise, imo.
This. Also, as played your hand is so so so underrepped. The only hands to worry about are JJ and 88. JJ raises preflop, in these games 88 may limp. So basically one hand to worry about, and it's a monster under the bed syndrome Other times he is raising various 2 pair/straight/A4/K4 type hands. Raise for value!
Comments
JJ-77,ATs,A8s,A4s,KTs,QTs-Q8s,T7s+,97s+,94s,87s,ATo,A8o,A4o,KTo,K8o,QTo-Q8o,T7o+,97o+,87o
Vs that range and 5 random hands our equity is 31% to the bettor's 25%, and 8.5% for everyone else.
Since we have an equity edge a raise is clearly correct, and we don't mind any number of callers. If we are 3bet we can assume we are behind, and possible c/fold some rivers.
Vs a passive player's 3bet on the turn, I think we could fold river Q's, 9's J's 8's. A case could be made for folding any non-T or 4 if we know the bettor well enough (wouldn't 3bet a pair+draw).
It's important to note that while us just calling may let other hands in, increasing the size of the pot, that is not guaranteed. Therefore we may simply be missing out on value by ending up hu on the river with the bettor, where we need to bet our boat and might not even get called, let alone raised, by many of the bettor's possible hands (that would certainly have called the turn c/r.)
Valid point, though highly unlikely at the 2/5 limit game. Most players will spend 1 big bet on the turn to try to hit their draw on the river, so 6 players folding is almost certainly not going to happen. Though 1-2 folds is certainly possible.
Well, 5 folds is possible too, because that's what happened to the OP
And since they're inclined to call, they may call with decent draws anyway, and each of their calls can then make us twice as much.
No argument from me
"Since we have an equity edge, a raise is clearly correct as it will force everyone who is putting in negative equity to fold."
Make sense? Nope.
Having an equity edge means that we are trying to maximize the NUMBER of bets that are entering the pot. If you think that raising will do that, then you do it. It's not a 'cause and effect' relationship.
Yeah, I may not have been entirely clear there. I really meant that a raise cannot be wrong. There is a time that one would want overcalls instead of the raise. On this board, however, anyone calling is drawing live against our hand. Many of those hands will call two cold, either correctly or incorrectly. If you want 5 overcalls for one bet, don't you want 5 overcalls for 2 bets?
Ok strike 2. Of course it can be wrong.
By wrong I mean it cannot be -ev given the ranges assigned to the opponents, which I believe are fair. It may not be the highest possible ev, of course that's what we're debating.
just let me check the book...
+1
although my first couple of months of B&M was at BCC 2/5 limit, before i realized the game is a crapshoot on steriods. save your money and maybe play some 5/10, even then, it's still a crapshoot.
second, fold pre. yes you're getting huge odds to call, but 10 4 off? if flop comes 10 high, then what? c/c? hope to hit a 4 on the turn? save your $3 to tip the waitresses or something. junk hands like that don't justify a SB complete. you're playing OOP with a hand that has almost no possibility to make the best hand in a multiway pot. but then again, everyone sitting at a 2/5 game has that same "pot odds" mentality, which is the reason the games are crapshoots
as for the actual hand, the turn is a definite c/r, c/c-ing is horrible. you're giving someone behind you with a bare 9 correct odds to call for their OESD.
as for the river, i like your lead, but you should've definite 3bet it. he doesn't stand to have a set, and if he had J4 or 84 he would've bet the flop so jam away.
Welcome to the forum,
Good starting post!
lead river, raise once if applicable
This. Also, as played your hand is so so so underrepped. The only hands to worry about are JJ and 88. JJ raises preflop, in these games 88 may limp. So basically one hand to worry about, and it's a monster under the bed syndrome