Limit Hold'em hand...thoughts?
I played this hand a few weeks ago at a Casino Brantford 2/5 limit game. I won the hand but.....I'll explain it below and will read what you think.
I was in the SB with 10-4 offsuit. There were 5 limpers when it got to me and I decided to complete the bet. The BB checked. With 7 players, the flop came:
J-8-4 rainbow.
It gave me bottom pair with a backdoor straight draw...not much of anything. I checked with really the intention of folding the hand if any real action occurs. It gets checked around.....turn.....
J-8-4-10.
I checked again. In all honesty, it was an insta-check as my plan beforehand was just to check the turn...I then realized afterward that I had 2 pair. It was checked around to the guy 3 to my right who bet. So the pot was now about 4BB with people to act after me. Given the size of the pot and possibly some bets coming afterwards, I decided to call. Everyone else folded leaving the river heads-up. Here comes the river....
J-8-4-10-4.
I bet out here with the full house but was insta-raised (so quick in fact that the bet had barely left my hand). Ultimately, I just called and he showed the losing straight (9-7 offsuit).
My thoughts with this hand is the river. With the insta-raise, it was telling me that he didn't fear the board being paired. This was a guy who was filling out a ProLine form while playing which indicated (to me anyway) that he may be a tighter player than normal at that game....I don't know. I think I just screwed the river play up...
I was in the SB with 10-4 offsuit. There were 5 limpers when it got to me and I decided to complete the bet. The BB checked. With 7 players, the flop came:
J-8-4 rainbow.
It gave me bottom pair with a backdoor straight draw...not much of anything. I checked with really the intention of folding the hand if any real action occurs. It gets checked around.....turn.....
J-8-4-10.
I checked again. In all honesty, it was an insta-check as my plan beforehand was just to check the turn...I then realized afterward that I had 2 pair. It was checked around to the guy 3 to my right who bet. So the pot was now about 4BB with people to act after me. Given the size of the pot and possibly some bets coming afterwards, I decided to call. Everyone else folded leaving the river heads-up. Here comes the river....
J-8-4-10-4.
I bet out here with the full house but was insta-raised (so quick in fact that the bet had barely left my hand). Ultimately, I just called and he showed the losing straight (9-7 offsuit).
My thoughts with this hand is the river. With the insta-raise, it was telling me that he didn't fear the board being paired. This was a guy who was filling out a ProLine form while playing which indicated (to me anyway) that he may be a tighter player than normal at that game....I don't know. I think I just screwed the river play up...
Comments
And yes, on the river you are capping every time. If you think about villans hand, he's not betting when theres a large field on the flop with a set? Only hand he can have is TT in your scenario.
Edit: Oh and move up to Play 5/10 instead of 2/5.
Any two broadway cards now have at least a gutshot and possibly a pair - make it incorrect for them to call. 4bet the river every time, but only call a 5bet.
I agree with BBC to move up to 5/10 from 2/5.
And next time, fold T4o in the small blind. It is not +ev. T6o is a call though.
Wow.. bolding the must.. thats powerful.
The check-raise does nothing more than shut everyone else out of the small pot and force us to play against a hand that might be better than ours.
The check raise gives us the best chance to win the pot with a very vulnerable to pair against a hand that might be better than us but very likely is not.
Check calling is the worst option after c/raising (1st) and betting out (2nd).
This pot is not that small, there are 7 limpers in it.
If you are implying that the CR could get the player who bet the turn to fold to the CR, or to a single bet on the river, you are sadly mistaken. This hand is most likely going to get to showdown regardless as played, this is just a spot where you are looking to find a play that can maximize your gain when ahead but minimize your loss when behind.
Of course he's not going to fold, unless he has air in which case we'd want him to call. This c/r is for value, meaning we figure to be ahead most of the time. It will also have the added benefit of protecting our hand from any draws out there. Remember that a hand like AT, which may fold to our c/r if it makes them call 2 bets cold but call for one, can catch any 8, J or Ace and beat us.
There ARE times in LHE when you want to minimize your loss when behind, but this is not one of them. You have a good hand but it is vulnerable, put that extra bet in to protect it.
The OP wanted comment on the river - did he put enough bets in. The fact is it doesn't really matter if it's 3 or 4 (maybe 5). It's a difference of one BB. C/raising the turn could be the difference between winning or losing a 4.5 bb pot! And similar situations will come up far more often than having a boat on the river and not knowing what to do with it.
I'm not trying to be antagonistic to anyone, but in order to maximize your profit at a loose game such as this, you really do have to c/r this turn. It's not even close.
Yeah, but he was behind in the hand:
Clearly the action would have been 3 bet.
Doesn't matter, the correct move is to c/r here. He didn't know he was behind at the time.
This is also why if anyone is starting a thread asking about their play they should leave out results for unbiased opinions.
So you c/r and it's 3 bet back to you? You still cap it knowing you're behind?
No you call to hit your 4 outer. Have you played 2/5 at Brantford?
If you c/r and are 3bet you call and just call the river UI (folding the river is an option but only against the most passive and readable of players).
I didn't say to cap the turn. His threebet lets you know you're probably behind. Before that you figured to be good. If you know he has a straight when he bets, you should just fold your two pair, right?
No, i haven't played 2/5 at Brantford, but i have at Niagara and Point Edward. I'm sure it's quite similar, and the c/r is correct everywhere
Played as is I completely agree that raising is the way to go.
Because betting out will not protect your hand. Any two broadways are going to call thinking they have at least a gutshot and two overs that may be good. The 10 almost has to hit someone so there isn't much chance a bet won't go in on the turn.
Also, by betting, you pretty much have to call a raise, but have no idea if you're ahead. If you check, there's a bet and a raise before it gets back to you, you can pretty safely fold.
Betting out isn't a bad option, btw. I believe it's much better than checking and calling, but slightly worse than c/raising.
btw, are you actyper also on the PSO forums? I thought i recognized that name.
The turn is a *clear* CR. Force the field to call 2 Big bets.
Getting re-poped will cost you a big bet, But losing the pot will cost you 5.5 Big bets.
Calling is a huge blunder and the worst advice possible.
Totally wrong thinking.
We want to win this 5.5 big bet pot. Playing passively won't protect our hand. This is a clear check raise situation.
Holy shit 5 bets is now a big pot? Are you retarded or just mathematically un-inclined?
Edit: I propose this thread is renamed: "Why people will always suck at limit poker".
5.5 big bets is not a huge pot, but it is worth trying to win. If you are ahead you will also get another bet on the river, more if you improve.
I don't want to insult you, honest - but the difference between being an OK limit hold'em player (quite possibly still a winning player mind you), and an expert who crushes the game is that on this hand the expert makes this c/r.
(ignoring the fact that an expert wouldn't play the hand in the first place, most likely).
And people will suck at limit poker only if they refuse to learn from those with more knowledge/experience. Hopefully at least the OP is learning that there's often a lot more to winning LHE play than capping a boat.
If I had not checked the turn, I'm still not a 100% convinced that CR is the best play here. Unless the 2/5 game at Brantford has changed, will anyone bet a draw here? I think if you are still good on this board then it gets checked around again. If you are behind you probably get 3bet. I think I lead out in order to get some money in the pot. I would call a raise but fold if it was more than 1 bet to me.
Raise the river a few times but if he keeps reraising you then you gotta consider a higher boat.
Pot $19 + $5 call = 5:1 for any draw to call, and successively better odds with every call that follows, until finally the guy with 22 decides, what the hell, lets call to hit my 2 outer. Give me a break.
Pot $19 + $10 c/r = 3:1, incorrect for draws to call
There is 5 other people left to call in this pot. Are we going to make it correct or incorrect to call? Are we there to make the other players make the mistakes or not?
BBC Z, You need to review/improve your understanding of limit poker.
There are two kind of difficult points here.
Why we checkraise the turn:
In this situation we risk losing an extra bet checkraising, in return we try to win this pot by offering bad odds to the other players. It's okay to risk losing an extra bet in order to try to win the 5 big bet pot.
We don't open bet the turn because betting doesn't protect our hand, checkraising does. ...
Edit: For those who are new to limit poker "big bet" means the bets on the turn and river. Limit poker talks about pot size in terms of big bets on the turn and the river.
FACT: 7 players, so we're against 6 other hands
FACT: This is limit 2/5 at BCC
FACT: Current pot size (on turn) is $14
FACT: The dude insta-checked anyways, so this is moot, but....
We have 2 pair (2nd and bottom) on a board of J-8-10-4 (assume rainbow)
Since just betting out would likely cause cancer anyways, we'll look at the debate b/w the two options of c/r and c/call.
Scenario 1: We check / raise
POT: $19 (after his bet)
"Pros"
- Gets us to heads up
- Puts MINIMUM 4 more BB (his call of c/r, and his re-raise on the river* as shown)
- Taking away odds for hands to draw to beat us
"Cons"
- We have a very weak two pair, and our c/r - if called - is putting money in behind a LOT here (7-9, 9-Q, J-8, J-10, and any set that was slowplayed), meaning we have at best 4 outs to these, and at worse 2.
- We're putting in $10 to win $19
- We're chasing out any other callers with a weaker hand
ASIDE:
- We are at least calling the river with two pair, meaning we are risking MINIMUM $15 to win a pot that was $19
- *he may not be re-raising us on the river with a c/r since it screams set to me
Scenario 2: We check / call
POT: $19 (after his bet)
"Pros"
- Only costs us one BB to win 4 BB.
- If even one caller comes along, the pot becomes 6BB
- Minimizes our losses when we are behind drawing to 2-4 outs, since we're still calling the river
"Cons"
- Allows any hands we're beating to draw out on us (10-9, J-9, QK, PP)
- "Only" puts in one BB from the raiser
ASIDE:
- We are risking $10 to win a pot that was $19
- More likely to get the original check raise from him
Now, let's look at how this may have turned out
Scenario 1: Best case scenario
We c/r, getting one call from the raiser with a worse hand and we hold, or we suck out on the river meaning he puts in 4 more bets, +$20.
Scenario 1: Worst case scenario
We c/r, and get re-raised by any hand better than ours. Now with the pot at $40, we've gotta call for 8:1 odds, but we're at best drawing to 4 outs to the river, making us a 9:1 dog, we still have to call river with 2 pair when we are facing a $5 into $50
Summary: In best case scenario, we win $20 more, in worst case scenario, we're putting in $20 behind. --> push
Scenario 2: Best case scenario
We c/c, trying to entice another caller. If we're ahead, we win 2 more BB out of the caller (if we bet the river and he calls). However, if we get even one caller of the remaining 3, we win 2 more bets from them too. Further, if the hand plays out as it did, we may even get 3BB from each of the others.
Scenario 2: Worst case scenario
We c/c/, don't get a caller, and we're behind. We still call the river bet with two pair. We have now spent $10, in an attempt to win what was a $19 pot.
Summary: Best case scenario, we win $20 more (with one caller) with potential for $30 more. Worst case scenario, we lose $10.
And this is why I agree with BBCZ. It's the limit equiv. of big hand / big pot, small hand / small pot. 2nd and bottom pair is shit in a 7 way pot IMO.
Mark
What's better? a 70% chance to win a 5.5 bet pot or a 50% chance of winning an 12bb pot? because in your scenario, you fight for a 5 bet pot, in my scenario I fight for a 10+ bet pot.
When you checkraise, you ensure that you are playing against the best remaining hand who is likely way ahead or way behind you. When you call, you entice all those other medium one pair hands and overcards to play.
Here's a concept you probably forgot. More players means bigger pots. Also, more players mean you win more with less risk (My way sees two bets go in on the turn/river, with the loss of the extra checkraise bet made up for the 1-2 players who come along for the ride).
In retrospect after reading the responses, I agree that the turn check/raise is the best move here....and now I feel a bit stupid about not thinking about it at that point in time.
After the J-8-4-10 rainbow board after the turn card, there was $14 in the pot from the 7 limpers. It was checked around to the villian who bets making the pot $19 dollars....so about 4 BB's. If I check-raise now in this spot, it would have folded around to him who, at the least, would have called. It is also possible, since he had the made straight, that he would have re-raised. At this point, I could narrow down his hand range right here. If I put him on the made straight (which I suspect I would have done given the image he had), I was facing a pot now of 19 + 10(my CR) + 5(his call) = $34 or $39 dollars if he re-raised.....so about 7 to 8 BB back to me.
If I put him on the straight, I now know that realistically I have 4 full outs (the other 10's and 4's) so my pot odds would have to be 46/4 or about 11.5 to 1 to call. I would have picked up the extra 3-4 BB on the river via implied odds given his actions on the river with the insta-raising he was doing....since at Brantford there isn't a cap when the pot is heads up.
Yep...I left money on the table here.
Thanks for the analysis (serious) but I fixed your key errors.
I agree with the C/R, though can see the point for the C/C as well.
Hands we are behind (that make sense with the action as given) include:
JT, T8, 44's, 97, Q9, 88
Hands that are likely calling a 1-bet (because we C/C),
Some 4 outers are calling (Qx 7x), hands like KJ, QJ, KT, QT, A8, K8 are also likely calling, plus all the hands below that would call a raise
I guess my question is, by checking/calling the turn, how many hands that have hit a piece of the board will be sticking around and calling a single bet to see the river, which could beat us on the river (hands like A8/K8/Q8 or something, that hit a bigger 2 pair on the end, or 4 outer) because we've allowed them to stick around and see a card for 1 bet. I don't know the answer to that question but have seen it enough at the 2/5 tables to know there is a % of people.
Hands that may call a c/r but we are currently ahead of include:
AT, AJ, A4, KQ, pretty much 9x (chase that 8 outer, it is 2/5 limit after all)
While a 5.5 bb pot is not a monster, neither is our hand. It's decent, has some limited opportunities to improve but hands that call the turn that we beat are pretty obvious and we can tell pretty quickly if the river helps them. We also don't know how many other previous callers will call 2 bets cold.
What's folding here:
Pretty much every thing else.
So after all that, the really big question is what do we do when the player re-raises us (assuming everyone else folds), it really allows us to see where we are and know that we are likely behind to 4 clean outs (he's got the made straight, high or idiot end). It really helps define our hand.
I also ran some math about where we stand in both cases
quick pokerstove analysis against 1 other random hand I'm about a 61% favourite (mixing in the hands that we are losing to and would likely call a C/R in that situation):
Board: Jd 8c 4h Td
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 61.159% 61.05% 00.12% 1028695 1973.50 { Tc4s }
Hand 1: 38.841% 38.73% 00.12% 652575 1973.50 { 88, 44, AJs-ATs, A4s, KQs, Q9s, JTs, T8s, 92s+, AJo-ATo, A4o, KQo, Q9o, JTo, T8o, 92o+ }
I also see that against 7 other players with our 2 pair, we are a 33% dog to win the hand against 7 other random hands:
Board: Jd 8c 4h Td
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 33.643% 32.79% 00.86% 59906 1563.00 { Tc4s }
Hand 1: 09.362% 08.08% 01.29% 14755 2350.58 { random }
Hand 2: 09.487% 08.19% 01.30% 14960 2374.00 { random }
Hand 3: 09.477% 08.16% 01.32% 14906 2409.67 { random }
Hand 4: 09.443% 08.15% 01.29% 14891 2362.50 { random }
Hand 5: 09.515% 08.20% 01.31% 14984 2400.92 { random }
Hand 6: 09.596% 08.29% 01.31% 15143 2389.33 { random }
Hand 7: 09.475% 08.15% 01.33% 14880 2432.00 { random }
So to clarify: I do expect the pot that you are winning from the 7 handed hand is much larger, but you are approx. 50% as likely to win it. However, another point to be considered is you are only contributing 1/7 of the cash for the big pot and 1/2 the remaining bets for the smallish pot.