Thats pretty much standard play....the tight players vs the cannons.....cannons win in the short term because the tighter players don't adjust fast enough or pick up enough information on the cannons before waging assault back.
Thats pretty much standard play....the tight players vs the cannons.....cannons win in the short term because the tighter players don't adjust fast enough or pick up enough information on the cannons before waging assault back.
Agree with this.
Playing 2/5 last week and had a pair of guys who would cap it pre-flop every single hand.
I finally get KK and just limp call the current bet $4 knowing the raise and re-raise is coming to 8. Pay the 8.
Flop comes KQ5, I check and make it look like "wtf am I doing in this hand", first guy bets, second guy raises (again to 4), I agonize for a moment and call the 4, and it's capped to 8 again. I just shake my head and call the 4 more.
Turn is a Q, Now the only thing I worry about is QQ, but I can't think that either guy has that hand.
First guy bets, second guy raises... Now I have a 'hard' decision. Do I pull the trigger with a re-raise on the turn or just call and see what they do and hope it gets to be raised to me on the river again... I choose to just call and the action is stopped with $10 a piece in the pot.
River comes a beautiful 7, and again bet, raise to me, now I re-raise and get 1 caller.
I let him show his Q3 and I flip my KK to the delight of the table.
They stopped going completely crazy for about an hour... and I'd just shoot them a look when one of them raised that seemed to legitimately spook them.
At one point they raise and re-raise and I ask them, "Are your chips lonely for their brothers and sisters over here??, Don't worry little ones, I'm coming to get you." Cracked the table up and totally threw them off their game, they left 2 minutes later.
At one point they raise and re-raise and I ask them, "Are your chips lonely for their brothers and sisters over here??, Don't worry little ones, I'm coming to get you." Cracked the nits at the table up and totally threw the fish off their game, they left 2 minutes later and then all of us good players had a great time! In the end the rake was the only winner on the night. Good Times
Solid post Zunni. I took the liberty of filling in a few blanks.
Since this is fcking Limit, you should have just re-raised another $5. Brantford :fish: won't fold because of a $5 raise when there is still one card to come. With a rake taken just for seeing every flop at Brantford, winning an extra bet or two is critical for you to beat the rake in a 2/5 Limit game.
By the way, is there any word on the forever-delayed tournaments and satellites at Brantford??
Solid post Zunni. I took the liberty of filling in a few blanks.
Thanks for the assistance, except you got it completely wrong..
In Brantford 2/5, you don't worry about fish because invariably 3 fish leave, 3 fish sit down.
Side note, I play better without paying $8 to see every flop, perhaps this is an indication of my skill level not knowing how to correctly play 77's on a 8K4 flop after I've already dropped $8 pre-flop 8 or 9 handed, and know to see a turn it's costing me another $8. YMMV..
Flop comes KQ5, I check and make it look like "wtf am I doing in this hand", first guy bets, second guy raises (again to 4), I agonize for a moment and call the 4, and it's capped to 8 again. I just shake my head and call the 4 more.
Turn is a Q, Now the only thing I worry about is QQ, but I can't think that either guy has that hand.
....
I let him show his Q3 and I flip my KK to the delight of the table.
They stopped going completely crazy for about an hour... and I'd just shoot them a look when one of them raised that seemed to legitimately spook them.
At one point they raise and re-raise and I ask them, "Are your chips lonely for their brothers and sisters over here??, Don't worry little ones, I'm coming to get you." Cracked the table up and totally threw them off their game, they left 2 minutes later.
Oh god how did I miss this? I assume that this is a troll post like JAH's AA thread.
but really, my usual response to someone from here that plays 2/5 is to move up. But with all the pokerlogic you've just burned onto my retinas, i think you are better off looking for a smaller game.
Oh god how did I miss this? I assume that this is a troll post like JAH's AA thread.
but really, my usual response to someone from here that plays 2/5 is to move up. But with all the pokerlogic you've just burned onto my retinas, i think you are better off looking for a smaller game.
I'm doing alright playing live and online. Thanks for the concern
Solid post Zunni. I took the liberty of filling in a few blanks.
okay, i'm not one to want to start shit, but i'm seriously starting to get annoyed with the way cadillac responds to people in this forum. i completely agree with your "issue" with zunni's post. i agree that you, obviously, want to keep the fishies at the table and let them keep doing what they are doing (because that makes it easier for me to make money off them). now that being said, cadillac, you have a very demeaning way of getting your point across. how about you try to pose it as constructive criticism as opposed to your usual sarcastic i'm-so-better-than-thou attitude?
people post their opinions in this forum so we can all help each other out and learn and understand poker better. you telling/suggesting to people that they're idiots is not helpful imho.
if you disagree with me, then let's consider it from your point of view. your actions are highly ironic according to your own position. that is, you are just like zunni and your sarcastic noise is driving the fish away.
from either perspective, it seems like you should try to be a little more kind with your opinions towards others.
Edit: *sigh* i await the onslaught, and i apologize ahead of time.
people post their opinions in this forum so we can all help each other out and learn and understand poker better. you telling/suggesting to people that they're idiots is not helpful imho.
This is a CPF 2004 debate, not CPF 2008.
from either perspective, it seems like you should try to be a little more kind with your opinions towards others.
Are your opponents on the table blowing you kisses when they take your money? Why would you expect the internet to be any different?
okay, i'm not one to want to start shit, but i'm seriously starting to get annoyed with the way cadillac responds to people in this forum. i completely agree with your "issue" with zunni's post. i agree that you, obviously, want to keep the fishies at the table and let them keep doing what they are doing (because that makes it easier for me to make money off them). now that being said, cadillac, you have a very demeaning way of getting your point across. how about you try to pose it as constructive criticism as opposed to your usual sarcastic i'm-so-better-than-thou attitude?
people post their opinions in this forum so we can all help each other out and learn and understand poker better. you telling/suggesting to people that they're idiots is not helpful imho.
if you disagree with me, then let's consider it from your point of view. your actions are highly ironic according to your own position. that is, you are just like zunni and your sarcastic noise is driving the fish away.
from either perspective, it seems like you should try to be a little more kind with your opinions towards others.
Edit: *sigh* i await the onslaught, and i apologize ahead of time.
All right. Buckle your seat belts...
Just kidding.
A lot of what I post on here is tongue in cheek and I do it with a smile on my face. When I post advice in a strategy thread I am dead serious and I try my best to give sound advice and include a solid explanation of said advice.
When people post garbage they get garbage. Zunni's post is garbage and he is the one who is feeling smug in this thread, not me. He was so proud of what he did at the table that he had to inject it in to this thread where it is not even relevant. It is lesson number one in poker that you keep your customers happy. Berating or belittling fish is bad for business. If you do it at a table I am playing at I will tell you to your face that you are a fucking idiot. It is the same as throwing a rock in somebody's fishing hole.
Zunni should know better and if he doesn't by now he probably never will. You find a lot of different motivations at the poker table. Some people play to win money. Some people play poker to swagger when they drag a pot. If you play for the former reason you learn to placate the fish, compliment their terrible play, buy them a beer when they lose a pot and do anything to keep them at the table. When you play for the latter reason you are happy to chase them away after you have made a little score. That way you can feel good about yourself because that is really what you care about, not the money.
As far as that goes, Zunni seems like a nice enough guy. But the post is still shit.
I never really posted much when I first joined here and at 2+2. I read and read and read. Then I read some more. When I was ready to start getting involved I had a clue about what I was talking about. I have neither the time or the patience to educate people who can't be bothered to educate themselves. I have made more posts on this forum about the stupidity of berating the fish than I care to count. They are all here, you just have to read them. You want to make a post about folding AA pre-flop? I am gonna tease the rat shit out of you too.
I respect both your opinion and your right to have one. Your point about me driving the fish away is the only one I would really debate. This is a forum, not a card table. If you make stupid plays at the table I profit and I won't correct you. If you make stupid posts in the forum I don't profit so I'll tell you if they suck and you can either learn from it or dig your feet in. I am not about to sugar coat my response.
If you want the truth this forum needs some stickies. Lots of them. People should be able to utilize the resource of our better discussions and be expected to read the stickies so that when they make stupid posts on issues that have been done to death we can say, "Hey Duke, read the Damn stickies."
Sorry you think I am an asshole. I make every attempt to contribute to the threads where people are honestly trying to improve their game and try to have some fun in the off topic stuff. I have been around long enough to know that not everyone is going to like me or my style.
cadillac, i never said (or thought) you were an asshole. i was merely stating that you should voice your criticisms more...nicely let's say. i absolutely understand that you've been on this forum (and others) for a long time and you're tired of reading stupid shit that people post. however, i'd still suggest that you voice your opinions nicely or not voice them at all. obviously i can't stop you from doing what you want, i'm just suggesting that the nicer approach is probably the better choice imho.
BBC Z...um...well what should i say to you? nothing i said was directed to you. you felt like adding your opinion in though, so i guess you'll get to read mine in reference to you now. congrats on being here since 2004. i guess in all those years you've learned it all and no one else should question/comment on anything that's ever been mentioned in this forum in the past (note the sarcasm). and i expect different from this forum (in relation to playing at a poker table) because "most" (i have to categorize this because there are people like you and cadillac who frequent this forum) people on this forum are here to help each other and learn about poker. some prefer to come and simply berate those who are not as educated in poker. even for those few who choose to do so (i.e. sarcastically criticize/berate others) i really don't have any problems with them doing so. however, i will (for a third time now) suggest that it may be better for all involved if they did so in a "nicer" way. if you have a problem with that BBC Z, well i guess i'm sorry for asking you to treat others as you'd like to be treated. i must be crazy to suggest that in an internet forum according to you, i guess.
congrats on being here since 2004. i guess in all those years you've learned it all and no one else should question/comment on anything that's ever been mentioned in this forum in the past (note the sarcasm).
My point is that we've already been through all this "why can't everyone just be nice" bullshit four years ago when I first started posting here. I believe that everyone that is still here has accepted that you have to be (wo)man enough to accept being called wrong without the sugar. I have no interest in coddling you on why that 72o preflop cap may not have been the most optimal play and if that attitude invalidates my message to your brain so be it, it's not my problem.
some prefer to come and simply berate those who are not as educated in poker.
Aside from very isolated cases, there's been very few posts on this forum ever that are nothing more than 'simple beration'. If someone tells you you suck, the generally provide a reason why. If they don't provide a reason why, it's usually because it should be part of your own self-learning experience. The onus is then upon you (the suckee) to figure out why. It's called learning, and it's not all hand holding, touchy feely hugs and kisses.
This isn't a forum about puppy dogs, it's about how to put yourself over at the expense of the other players at the table. At the same time, they're trying to do the same to you. It's a cold, cruel, ruthless, unforgiving, varianceathon and the sooner you come to that realization, the better.
And yes, this is a very touchy subject with me. I've fought your kind of "dismiss the message due to the tone" thinking for too long now and I get sick of it.
Give up zunni, you aren't going to win this one. Actually, keep trying to defend it, I could use some entertainment.
(Sorry pkrfce)
Only in Canada would we all be apologizing for hijacking a thread.
So here's mine, can't have a thriving forum without discussion, sucks to have hijacked this thread for that purpose.
I can't disagree with BBC_Z's point. Absolutely looking long term over thousands and many thousands of hands is the correct way to look at things.
My point to him was rather since he wasn't specific in terms of his criticism of my original post... or response, I would rather him save the reply at all.
So BBC_Z, what's your issue with my post? Was it the poker play? If so, what do you feel I did wrong? Was there something else in the tone of my interaction at the table that was an issue for you? I have thick skin, so please help me get better. I await your sage advice
<edit> reading the last post, I guess this is one of those 'self-discovery' voyages I need to get on. I'll send a post card
When people post garbage they get garbage. Zunni's post is garbage and he is the one who is feeling smug in this thread, not me. He was so proud of what he did at the table that he had to inject it in to this thread where it is not even relevant. It is lesson number one in poker that you keep your customers happy. Berating or belittling fish is bad for business. If you do it at a table I am playing at I will tell you to your face that you are a fucking idiot. It is the same as throwing a rock in somebody's fishing hole.
Zunni should know better and if he doesn't by now he probably never will. You find a lot of different motivations at the poker table. Some people play to win money. Some people play poker to swagger when they drag a pot. If you play for the former reason you learn to placate the fish, compliment their terrible play, buy them a beer when they lose a pot and do anything to keep them at the table. When you play for the latter reason you are happy to chase them away after you have made a little score. That way you can feel good about yourself because that is really what you care about, not the money.
As far as that goes, Zunni seems like a nice enough guy. But the post is still shit.
To be fair, in terms of poker maturity I am still a very young student of the game.
The earlier post (or the one where I lost my temper in the other thread) are certainly not indicative of my attitude or demeanor, if I came across smug in this thread or eager to stop bad players from playing then I apologize as that certainly wasn't my intent.
I also didn't intend to hijack the thread and truly thought my original post was on topic with the this thread. I'll have to re-read my original post to see where I was wrong.
I also need to be clear. I'm not a child that can't handle criticism, I'm an adult and I know that I sometimes say things I shouldn't or that I make mistakes. I appreciate the time taken to help me fix and understand where I went wrong.
My point wasn't that I was scaring these players off the table, but rather the 2 players involved were preventing the other 6 or 7 players from having a good time. We had already lost a few players to table changes and while I didn't poll the players as they moved, I did get asked by a player I knew at the other table, what was with 'those 2 guys'. So those 2 players were effectively preventing myself and the other 7 players (certainly not nits, just regular touristy folks) from playing the game and I'm sure many more dollars that were available were taken off our table in a quest to find a 'better spot'. As you stated, keeping fish happy is a goal, but if the fish aren't playing or playing for an hour, getting frustrated and then leaving it's not helpful in terms of your win-rate either.
It was frustrating in part because I didn't know how to counteract it. So sure maybe I was much more arrogant than usual when I finally was able to be in a hand and took down a nice pot. Maybe I was also a continued D-bag in an attempt to keep the game we had re-established that was more comfortable for me and the other players, and keep the other guys outside their comfort zone as well (which is a valid poker strategy too I believe).
Side note: Good for those 2 guys who figured out how to take advantage of the 2/5 table, I'd love some suggestions on things that can be done to counter-act this type of situation.
Anyway.. Sorry to have stirred up all of this controversy and conversation about what amounted to a single hand out of about a couple hundred for that night.
And don't worry cadillac, no harm no foul from me. You pointed out something that was a valid point, but I still feel that in the circumstances I found myself in, I made the right call. Maybe not, but I stand behind it.
I finally get KK and just limp call the current bet $4 knowing the raise and re-raise is coming to 8. Pay the 8.
I can live with this play considering you don't want to be too overt about the monster hand that you hold. I assume by 8 you mean that it was 3-bet preflop. If you had a looser image, it's a cap.
Flop comes KQ5, I check and make it look like "wtf am I doing in this hand"
Theres no need to hollywood, these guys just want to gamble.
, first guy bets, second guy raises (again to 4), I agonize for a moment and call the 4, and it's capped to 8 again. I just shake my head and call the 4 more.
Again, I don't mind not cold-3betting but you have to be concerned that it may not get capped here without you doing some raising.
Turn is a Q, Now the only thing I worry about is QQ, but I can't think that either guy has that hand.
Jebus, QQ is so far out there that you should be more focused on the boat you just made than the MUBS quads.
First guy bets, second guy raises... Now I have a 'hard' decision. Do I pull the trigger with a re-raise on the turn or just call and see what they do and hope it gets to be raised to me on the river again... I choose to just call and the action is stopped with $10 a piece in the pot.
You have to bet at some point, you likely don't lose either of them in this pot.
I let him show his Q3 and I flip my KK to the delight of the table.
Just show down as soon as the last bet is called, you don't need to potentially embarass him at showdown.
They stopped going completely crazy for about an hour... and I'd just shoot them a look when one of them raised that seemed to legitimately spook them.
You don't understand where profit comes from at a poker table. Fundamentally, it comes from the bad players. When you chase bad players away, your profit goes DOWN.
At one point they raise and re-raise and I ask them, "Are your chips lonely for their brothers and sisters over here??, Don't worry little ones, I'm coming to get you."
This isn't TV, you don't have to trash talk people. Especially not ones that are donating.
Cracked the table up and totally threw them off their game, they left 2 minutes later.
Fail.
So really, i just hate your attitude towards your profit centers. You don't have to hollywood your showdown, you don't have to pick on them, you dont have to 'shoot them looks'. Just play the game. Are you playing to win money or look cool infront of 9 other generates that will forget about you forever the minute you leave the table?
but rather the 2 players involved were preventing the other 6 or 7 players from having a good time.
What are you, the grand ambassador to poker who ensures that everyone at a table is having fun? Who cares.
but if the fish aren't playing or playing for an hour, getting frustrated and then leaving it's not helpful in terms of your win-rate either.
My definition of a fish is someone who puts too much money into pots with the incorrect odds. Sound familiar?
Side note: Good for those 2 guys who figured out how to take advantage of the 2/5 table, I'd love some suggestions on things that can be done to counter-act this type of situation.
Understand that if they're raising and re-raising every hand, then they must be betting light on the flop and turn, so you need to lower your showdown requirements. 2nd pair is a monster and you'll probably win with 4th pair or unimproved big aces.
I'm lying around sick and bored out of my mind for three dead forum days and I finally manage to get out of bed and accomplish something and a potential flame war breaks out and I miss it!
I'm coming to all of your houses and licking your toothbrushes.
First, thanks for taking the time BBC_Z.. I meant what I said in my previous posts.. I can't claim to be perfect and any help given is help I will take.
I can live with this play considering you don't want to be too overt about the monster hand that you hold. I assume by 8 you mean that it was 3-bet preflop. If you had a looser image, it's a cap.
If you are including the blind a 3-bet would take it to 6, otherwise if you count the first raise to 4 as being the 1-bet (not a term I know) than yeah a 3-bet would be 8 (also the cap).
They had been raising every hand they played. Every hand they played together was capped pre-flop. So I knew I didn't need to bet.
Theres no need to hollywood, these guys just want to gamble.
Yeah, you are right about this one. I guess I felt that since I had played almost no pots to this point they may wonder why I'm sticking around. More likely they wouldn't have even noticed.
Again, I don't mind not cold-3betting but you have to be concerned that it may not get capped here without you doing some raising.
this was their MO all night long, raise and re-raise til they had driven pretty much everyone out of the pot. They didn't check it down at that point any other time and often had $20 rivers with one legit hand showing when it was just HU. The other would muck. Perhaps a little collusion but I didn't get that impression.
Jebus, QQ is so far out there that you should be more focused on the boat you just made than the MUBS quads.
Correct, I was just acknowledging that I did realize I wasn't holding the nuts, and that I couldn't realistically expect either player to hold QQ in that situation.
You have to bet at some point, you likely don't lose either of them in this pot.
This is the street I spent time thinking about. If I raise to 15, does one go away? Do both since I hadn't shown any strength to this point? Not sure. But yeah that was something I certainly considered
Just show down as soon as the last bet is called, you don't need to potentially embarass him at showdown.
I always show down promptly, however in this case I wanted to see what he held and since I hate the IWTSTH rule, I decided to wait. I need to stress I NEVER do this, this was a rare thing for me. And the wait wasn't long, nobody had to ask. It took a couple of seconds, and he flippped. That didn't translate well from my first post.
You don't understand where profit comes from at a poker table. Fundamentally, it comes from the bad players. When you chase bad players away, your profit goes DOWN.
No argument from me, however as I said elsewhere. I didn't have an effective strategy to beat these guys. For me to be profitable, they were better off the table imo. I felt like I was using the tools and skills I had to give me my best chance for success. I can't hold KK everytime they are raising to 8. I also won't call 4 handed with 88 or 77 when it's been capped pre-flop. Is that a mistake against 2 loose players with one touristy guy as the fourth?
This isn't TV, you don't have to trash talk people. Especially not ones that are donating.
If you know me, I talk at the table, and nothing I say is in a vindictive tone. This came across more arrogant here than was the case to my mind when we were live. I might be wrong, and it's something I'll watch for.
Fail.
Could have been an epic, gotta look on the bright side
So really, i just hate your attitude towards your profit centers. You don't have to hollywood your showdown, you don't have to pick on them, you dont have to 'shoot them looks'. Just play the game. Are you playing to win money or look cool infront of 9 other generates that will forget about you forever the minute you leave the table?
Valid point, as I stated above I think it didn't translate here well, but it was mostly in jest trying to lighten the mood of the table. (as you state below, maybe that's not something I should be worrying about either)
What are you, the grand ambassador to poker who ensures that everyone at a table is having fun? Who cares.
I've seen the difference between a really quiet and cold table and one that's friendly and fun. The 'fun' tables are always more profitable in my experience. People come to the casino to gamble their money, but they expect to enjoy themselves while they do it. (as you know it becomes entertainment $$$'s)
So yeah I do try to get people having a good time when and where I can.
My definition of a fish is someone who puts too much money into pots with the incorrect odds. Sound familiar?
I don't disagree and believe that fits the description of 90%+ of the players sitting 2/5. I just couldn't get the money in pre-flop enough of the time to see enough flops to take advantage of how light they were calling though.
Understand that if they're raising and re-raising every hand, then they must be betting light on the flop and turn, so you need to lower your showdown requirements. 2nd pair is a monster and you'll probably win with 4th pair or unimproved big aces.
Thanks for this especially, I tend to play fairly tight and try to loosen up in position but I do know this is a weakness in my game. I can't bring myself to call K8o on the button for a capped preflop. I'm more likely to raise when I can in that situation, but these guys made raises expected and because of that they lost some of their effectiveness imo.
I'm lying around sick and bored out of my mind for three dead forum days and I finally manage to get out of bed and accomplish something and a potential flame war breaks out and I miss it!
I'm coming to all of your houses and licking your toothbrushes.
Limit is awesome... Discuss...
my toothbrush is the Hello Kitty one, help yourself..
My point is that we've already been through all this "why can't everyone just be nice" bullshit four years ago when I first started posting here. I believe that everyone that is still here has accepted that you have to be (wo)man enough to accept being called wrong without the sugar. I have no interest in coddling you on why that 72o preflop cap may not have been the most optimal play and if that attitude invalidates my message to your brain so be it, it's not my problem.
okay, what the hell are you talking about? all i suggested is to speak nicely to people. never said you shouldn't disagree with stupidity.
If they don't provide a reason why, it's usually because it should be part of your own self-learning experience. The onus is then upon you (the suckee) to figure out why. It's called learning, and it's not all hand holding, touchy feely hugs and kisses.
okay, what the hell are you talking about? so if an idiot (let's say you) posts a response to a thread (something sarcastic obviously), that simply means that the original poster is wrong and you are right (with absolutely no discussion involved). wow BBC Z, that's a great attitude. why discuss anything when you know it all? perhaps you should just stop posting here altogether and go seek some deeper wisdom that the rest of the idiots will just never understand (and you'll never tell them because it's a "self-leraning experience" apparently).
This isn't a forum about puppy dogs, it's about how to put yourself over at the expense of the other players at the table. At the same time, they're trying to do the same to you. It's a cold, cruel, ruthless, unforgiving, varianceathon and the sooner you come to that realization, the better.
okay, what the hell are you talking about? because poker makes you compete against others, a poker forum is necessarily also a competition? wtf? so you just never help anyone ever is what you're saying here? why do we have all these discussions about how to play hands and strategy and such if we are all just competitors? perhaps you should tell everyone now that whatever you say/comment/suggest to them is just a means of competing against them (if that is what it is. that seems to be what you're suggesting, otherwise you're making no sense at all).
And yes, this is a very touchy subject with me. I've fought your kind of "dismiss the message due to the tone" thinking for too long now and I get sick of it.
well then. i love when the person i'm disagreeing with presents things so clearly (and ironically i might add). perhaps someone (i.e. you) is not learning from their own "self-learning experiences". my advice to you is heed your own advice. not the first time people have told you that you have a bad attitude, maybe you do then, eh? and for the record, i never "dismissed the message". if you actually read my post about cadillac, i said i totally agreed with his comment, just not the way he chose to say it.
I do see your point m_dolens (though I don't ever recall finding BBC_Z offensive)
but:
Having been on this forum for a while there are some topics I've grown past: OBV example "when to fold AA preflop"
but there's a lot more than just that one.. many posts/threads/questions have grown redundant and boring, and some even frustrating- as we tell the 400th nit in the BB with 1010 and a S.S. that he must shove.
And I've only been on half as long as BBC/GTA etc.
I can't imagine what it must be like for them. So you have to ask yourself why do we keep posting?
There's a reasonable chance that the FIRST time they discussed a topic on this forum they carefully considered it and submitted an awesome well rounded post..but now, by its 400th inception I'm sure that it's going to be a few things:
a: more succinct, their opinion will be fully developed. Less of a discussion, more of a statement.
b: having a + outcome for themselves, which means that a certain number of these redundant posts will make them (and us) laugh, bolster their ego...w/e
The reality is that they don't have to teach you what they've learned in a way that you're comfortable with; and just like you, they will only be members here based on a + result for themselves...
We should consider ourselves fortunate when posters with such a wealth of knowledge DO stick around for the one liners and fun...because otherwise we'd have lost the opportunity to learn from them long ago.
honest to god, don't talk to me about contributions to the poker community until you are at your two thousandth post in a relevant forum. I've given way more back to everyone here than I've ever taken. For the benefit of that contribution, I require that you deal with my attitude and whatever the fuck else I feel like doing.
You don't like my message? You think I'm short? Then just fuck off, I don't care.
There's a reasonable chance that the FIRST time they discussed a topic on this forum they carefully considered it and submitted an awesome well rounded post..but now, by its 400th inception I'm sure that it's going to be a few things:
a: more succinct, their opinion will be fully developed. Less of a discussion, more of a statement.
I'd prefer a 'this has been discussed before, use the search' to 'you are a moron' type of approach. But I can't hold everyone to my standards.
b: having a + outcome for themselves, which means that a certain number of these redundant posts will make them (and us) laugh, bolster their ego...w/e
And by pointing a new-ish person in the right direction by linking them to your previous brilliance will allow an even bigger ego boost as we will link the awesome response directly with the person who gave it.
I see m_dolens point, if all you are going to do is insult the person without providing them any redeeming value, what's the point?
** Note:** Insult me all you want, I'm married.. I'm used to the abuse.
Comments
Agree with this.
Playing 2/5 last week and had a pair of guys who would cap it pre-flop every single hand.
I finally get KK and just limp call the current bet $4 knowing the raise and re-raise is coming to 8. Pay the 8.
Flop comes KQ5, I check and make it look like "wtf am I doing in this hand", first guy bets, second guy raises (again to 4), I agonize for a moment and call the 4, and it's capped to 8 again. I just shake my head and call the 4 more.
Turn is a Q, Now the only thing I worry about is QQ, but I can't think that either guy has that hand.
First guy bets, second guy raises... Now I have a 'hard' decision. Do I pull the trigger with a re-raise on the turn or just call and see what they do and hope it gets to be raised to me on the river again... I choose to just call and the action is stopped with $10 a piece in the pot.
River comes a beautiful 7, and again bet, raise to me, now I re-raise and get 1 caller.
I let him show his Q3 and I flip my KK to the delight of the table.
They stopped going completely crazy for about an hour... and I'd just shoot them a look when one of them raised that seemed to legitimately spook them.
At one point they raise and re-raise and I ask them, "Are your chips lonely for their brothers and sisters over here??, Don't worry little ones, I'm coming to get you." Cracked the table up and totally threw them off their game, they left 2 minutes later.
Solid post Zunni. I took the liberty of filling in a few blanks.
That's funny, I think I have seen these two IT ladies at Rama at the 2/5 table.
By the way, is there any word on the forever-delayed tournaments and satellites at Brantford??
Thanks for the assistance, except you got it completely wrong..
In Brantford 2/5, you don't worry about fish because invariably 3 fish leave, 3 fish sit down.
Side note, I play better without paying $8 to see every flop, perhaps this is an indication of my skill level not knowing how to correctly play 77's on a 8K4 flop after I've already dropped $8 pre-flop 8 or 9 handed, and know to see a turn it's costing me another $8. YMMV..
pkrfce9: My apologies...
Oh god how did I miss this? I assume that this is a troll post like JAH's AA thread.
but really, my usual response to someone from here that plays 2/5 is to move up. But with all the pokerlogic you've just burned onto my retinas, i think you are better off looking for a smaller game.
I'm doing alright playing live and online. Thanks for the concern
..because if there's one thing we've all learned at CPF over the years, it's that results and only results matter.
Give up zunni, you aren't going to win this one. Actually, keep trying to defend it, I could use some entertainment.
(Sorry pkrfce)
okay, i'm not one to want to start shit, but i'm seriously starting to get annoyed with the way cadillac responds to people in this forum. i completely agree with your "issue" with zunni's post. i agree that you, obviously, want to keep the fishies at the table and let them keep doing what they are doing (because that makes it easier for me to make money off them). now that being said, cadillac, you have a very demeaning way of getting your point across. how about you try to pose it as constructive criticism as opposed to your usual sarcastic i'm-so-better-than-thou attitude?
people post their opinions in this forum so we can all help each other out and learn and understand poker better. you telling/suggesting to people that they're idiots is not helpful imho.
if you disagree with me, then let's consider it from your point of view. your actions are highly ironic according to your own position. that is, you are just like zunni and your sarcastic noise is driving the fish away.
from either perspective, it seems like you should try to be a little more kind with your opinions towards others.
Edit: *sigh* i await the onslaught, and i apologize ahead of time.
This is a CPF 2004 debate, not CPF 2008.
Are your opponents on the table blowing you kisses when they take your money? Why would you expect the internet to be any different?
All right. Buckle your seat belts...
Just kidding.
A lot of what I post on here is tongue in cheek and I do it with a smile on my face. When I post advice in a strategy thread I am dead serious and I try my best to give sound advice and include a solid explanation of said advice.
When people post garbage they get garbage. Zunni's post is garbage and he is the one who is feeling smug in this thread, not me. He was so proud of what he did at the table that he had to inject it in to this thread where it is not even relevant. It is lesson number one in poker that you keep your customers happy. Berating or belittling fish is bad for business. If you do it at a table I am playing at I will tell you to your face that you are a fucking idiot. It is the same as throwing a rock in somebody's fishing hole.
Zunni should know better and if he doesn't by now he probably never will. You find a lot of different motivations at the poker table. Some people play to win money. Some people play poker to swagger when they drag a pot. If you play for the former reason you learn to placate the fish, compliment their terrible play, buy them a beer when they lose a pot and do anything to keep them at the table. When you play for the latter reason you are happy to chase them away after you have made a little score. That way you can feel good about yourself because that is really what you care about, not the money.
As far as that goes, Zunni seems like a nice enough guy. But the post is still shit.
I never really posted much when I first joined here and at 2+2. I read and read and read. Then I read some more. When I was ready to start getting involved I had a clue about what I was talking about. I have neither the time or the patience to educate people who can't be bothered to educate themselves. I have made more posts on this forum about the stupidity of berating the fish than I care to count. They are all here, you just have to read them. You want to make a post about folding AA pre-flop? I am gonna tease the rat shit out of you too.
I respect both your opinion and your right to have one. Your point about me driving the fish away is the only one I would really debate. This is a forum, not a card table. If you make stupid plays at the table I profit and I won't correct you. If you make stupid posts in the forum I don't profit so I'll tell you if they suck and you can either learn from it or dig your feet in. I am not about to sugar coat my response.
If you want the truth this forum needs some stickies. Lots of them. People should be able to utilize the resource of our better discussions and be expected to read the stickies so that when they make stupid posts on issues that have been done to death we can say, "Hey Duke, read the Damn stickies."
Sorry you think I am an asshole. I make every attempt to contribute to the threads where people are honestly trying to improve their game and try to have some fun in the off topic stuff. I have been around long enough to know that not everyone is going to like me or my style.
BBC Z...um...well what should i say to you? nothing i said was directed to you. you felt like adding your opinion in though, so i guess you'll get to read mine in reference to you now. congrats on being here since 2004. i guess in all those years you've learned it all and no one else should question/comment on anything that's ever been mentioned in this forum in the past (note the sarcasm). and i expect different from this forum (in relation to playing at a poker table) because "most" (i have to categorize this because there are people like you and cadillac who frequent this forum) people on this forum are here to help each other and learn about poker. some prefer to come and simply berate those who are not as educated in poker. even for those few who choose to do so (i.e. sarcastically criticize/berate others) i really don't have any problems with them doing so. however, i will (for a third time now) suggest that it may be better for all involved if they did so in a "nicer" way. if you have a problem with that BBC Z, well i guess i'm sorry for asking you to treat others as you'd like to be treated. i must be crazy to suggest that in an internet forum according to you, i guess.
My point is that we've already been through all this "why can't everyone just be nice" bullshit four years ago when I first started posting here. I believe that everyone that is still here has accepted that you have to be (wo)man enough to accept being called wrong without the sugar. I have no interest in coddling you on why that 72o preflop cap may not have been the most optimal play and if that attitude invalidates my message to your brain so be it, it's not my problem.
Aside from very isolated cases, there's been very few posts on this forum ever that are nothing more than 'simple beration'. If someone tells you you suck, the generally provide a reason why. If they don't provide a reason why, it's usually because it should be part of your own self-learning experience. The onus is then upon you (the suckee) to figure out why. It's called learning, and it's not all hand holding, touchy feely hugs and kisses.
This isn't a forum about puppy dogs, it's about how to put yourself over at the expense of the other players at the table. At the same time, they're trying to do the same to you. It's a cold, cruel, ruthless, unforgiving, varianceathon and the sooner you come to that realization, the better.
And yes, this is a very touchy subject with me. I've fought your kind of "dismiss the message due to the tone" thinking for too long now and I get sick of it.
Only in Canada would we all be apologizing for hijacking a thread.
So here's mine, can't have a thriving forum without discussion, sucks to have hijacked this thread for that purpose.
I can't disagree with BBC_Z's point. Absolutely looking long term over thousands and many thousands of hands is the correct way to look at things.
My point to him was rather since he wasn't specific in terms of his criticism of my original post... or response, I would rather him save the reply at all.
So BBC_Z, what's your issue with my post? Was it the poker play? If so, what do you feel I did wrong? Was there something else in the tone of my interaction at the table that was an issue for you? I have thick skin, so please help me get better. I await your sage advice
<edit> reading the last post, I guess this is one of those 'self-discovery' voyages I need to get on. I'll send a post card
To be fair, in terms of poker maturity I am still a very young student of the game.
The earlier post (or the one where I lost my temper in the other thread) are certainly not indicative of my attitude or demeanor, if I came across smug in this thread or eager to stop bad players from playing then I apologize as that certainly wasn't my intent.
I also didn't intend to hijack the thread and truly thought my original post was on topic with the this thread. I'll have to re-read my original post to see where I was wrong.
I also need to be clear. I'm not a child that can't handle criticism, I'm an adult and I know that I sometimes say things I shouldn't or that I make mistakes. I appreciate the time taken to help me fix and understand where I went wrong.
My point wasn't that I was scaring these players off the table, but rather the 2 players involved were preventing the other 6 or 7 players from having a good time. We had already lost a few players to table changes and while I didn't poll the players as they moved, I did get asked by a player I knew at the other table, what was with 'those 2 guys'. So those 2 players were effectively preventing myself and the other 7 players (certainly not nits, just regular touristy folks) from playing the game and I'm sure many more dollars that were available were taken off our table in a quest to find a 'better spot'. As you stated, keeping fish happy is a goal, but if the fish aren't playing or playing for an hour, getting frustrated and then leaving it's not helpful in terms of your win-rate either.
It was frustrating in part because I didn't know how to counteract it. So sure maybe I was much more arrogant than usual when I finally was able to be in a hand and took down a nice pot. Maybe I was also a continued D-bag in an attempt to keep the game we had re-established that was more comfortable for me and the other players, and keep the other guys outside their comfort zone as well (which is a valid poker strategy too I believe).
Side note: Good for those 2 guys who figured out how to take advantage of the 2/5 table, I'd love some suggestions on things that can be done to counter-act this type of situation.
Anyway.. Sorry to have stirred up all of this controversy and conversation about what amounted to a single hand out of about a couple hundred for that night.
And don't worry cadillac, no harm no foul from me. You pointed out something that was a valid point, but I still feel that in the circumstances I found myself in, I made the right call. Maybe not, but I stand behind it.
I can live with this play considering you don't want to be too overt about the monster hand that you hold. I assume by 8 you mean that it was 3-bet preflop. If you had a looser image, it's a cap.
Theres no need to hollywood, these guys just want to gamble.
Again, I don't mind not cold-3betting but you have to be concerned that it may not get capped here without you doing some raising.
Jebus, QQ is so far out there that you should be more focused on the boat you just made than the MUBS quads.
You have to bet at some point, you likely don't lose either of them in this pot.
Just show down as soon as the last bet is called, you don't need to potentially embarass him at showdown.
You don't understand where profit comes from at a poker table. Fundamentally, it comes from the bad players. When you chase bad players away, your profit goes DOWN.
This isn't TV, you don't have to trash talk people. Especially not ones that are donating.
Fail.
So really, i just hate your attitude towards your profit centers. You don't have to hollywood your showdown, you don't have to pick on them, you dont have to 'shoot them looks'. Just play the game. Are you playing to win money or look cool infront of 9 other generates that will forget about you forever the minute you leave the table?
What are you, the grand ambassador to poker who ensures that everyone at a table is having fun? Who cares.
My definition of a fish is someone who puts too much money into pots with the incorrect odds. Sound familiar?
Understand that if they're raising and re-raising every hand, then they must be betting light on the flop and turn, so you need to lower your showdown requirements. 2nd pair is a monster and you'll probably win with 4th pair or unimproved big aces.
I'm lying around sick and bored out of my mind for three dead forum days and I finally manage to get out of bed and accomplish something and a potential flame war breaks out and I miss it!
I'm coming to all of your houses and licking your toothbrushes.
Oh, I hope you are feeling better too. Spring colds suck the high hard one.
P.S. I keep my toothbrush down the back of pants...about 6" below my belt line. Help yourself
dammit! why did you have to be nice?!? ...now I can't make the obligatory "that explains the breath" renut.
If you are including the blind a 3-bet would take it to 6, otherwise if you count the first raise to 4 as being the 1-bet (not a term I know) than yeah a 3-bet would be 8 (also the cap).
They had been raising every hand they played. Every hand they played together was capped pre-flop. So I knew I didn't need to bet.
Yeah, you are right about this one. I guess I felt that since I had played almost no pots to this point they may wonder why I'm sticking around. More likely they wouldn't have even noticed.
this was their MO all night long, raise and re-raise til they had driven pretty much everyone out of the pot. They didn't check it down at that point any other time and often had $20 rivers with one legit hand showing when it was just HU. The other would muck. Perhaps a little collusion but I didn't get that impression.
Correct, I was just acknowledging that I did realize I wasn't holding the nuts, and that I couldn't realistically expect either player to hold QQ in that situation.
This is the street I spent time thinking about. If I raise to 15, does one go away? Do both since I hadn't shown any strength to this point? Not sure. But yeah that was something I certainly considered
I always show down promptly, however in this case I wanted to see what he held and since I hate the IWTSTH rule, I decided to wait. I need to stress I NEVER do this, this was a rare thing for me. And the wait wasn't long, nobody had to ask. It took a couple of seconds, and he flippped. That didn't translate well from my first post.
No argument from me, however as I said elsewhere. I didn't have an effective strategy to beat these guys. For me to be profitable, they were better off the table imo. I felt like I was using the tools and skills I had to give me my best chance for success. I can't hold KK everytime they are raising to 8. I also won't call 4 handed with 88 or 77 when it's been capped pre-flop. Is that a mistake against 2 loose players with one touristy guy as the fourth?
If you know me, I talk at the table, and nothing I say is in a vindictive tone. This came across more arrogant here than was the case to my mind when we were live. I might be wrong, and it's something I'll watch for.
Could have been an epic, gotta look on the bright side
Valid point, as I stated above I think it didn't translate here well, but it was mostly in jest trying to lighten the mood of the table. (as you state below, maybe that's not something I should be worrying about either)
I've seen the difference between a really quiet and cold table and one that's friendly and fun. The 'fun' tables are always more profitable in my experience. People come to the casino to gamble their money, but they expect to enjoy themselves while they do it. (as you know it becomes entertainment $$$'s)
So yeah I do try to get people having a good time when and where I can.
I don't disagree and believe that fits the description of 90%+ of the players sitting 2/5. I just couldn't get the money in pre-flop enough of the time to see enough flops to take advantage of how light they were calling though.
Thanks for this especially, I tend to play fairly tight and try to loosen up in position but I do know this is a weakness in my game. I can't bring myself to call K8o on the button for a capped preflop. I'm more likely to raise when I can in that situation, but these guys made raises expected and because of that they lost some of their effectiveness imo.
Limit is awesome... Discuss...
my toothbrush is the Hello Kitty one, help yourself..
who was it that went nuclear when their thread got hijacked? oh ya, it was me - next time.
lolz @ the scintillating discussion of sick check raises.
okay, what the hell are you talking about? all i suggested is to speak nicely to people. never said you shouldn't disagree with stupidity.
okay, what the hell are you talking about? so if an idiot (let's say you) posts a response to a thread (something sarcastic obviously), that simply means that the original poster is wrong and you are right (with absolutely no discussion involved). wow BBC Z, that's a great attitude. why discuss anything when you know it all? perhaps you should just stop posting here altogether and go seek some deeper wisdom that the rest of the idiots will just never understand (and you'll never tell them because it's a "self-leraning experience" apparently).
okay, what the hell are you talking about? because poker makes you compete against others, a poker forum is necessarily also a competition? wtf? so you just never help anyone ever is what you're saying here? why do we have all these discussions about how to play hands and strategy and such if we are all just competitors? perhaps you should tell everyone now that whatever you say/comment/suggest to them is just a means of competing against them (if that is what it is. that seems to be what you're suggesting, otherwise you're making no sense at all).
well then. i love when the person i'm disagreeing with presents things so clearly (and ironically i might add). perhaps someone (i.e. you) is not learning from their own "self-learning experiences". my advice to you is heed your own advice. not the first time people have told you that you have a bad attitude, maybe you do then, eh? and for the record, i never "dismissed the message". if you actually read my post about cadillac, i said i totally agreed with his comment, just not the way he chose to say it.
but:
Having been on this forum for a while there are some topics I've grown past: OBV example "when to fold AA preflop"
but there's a lot more than just that one.. many posts/threads/questions have grown redundant and boring, and some even frustrating- as we tell the 400th nit in the BB with 1010 and a S.S. that he must shove.
And I've only been on half as long as BBC/GTA etc.
I can't imagine what it must be like for them. So you have to ask yourself why do we keep posting?
There's a reasonable chance that the FIRST time they discussed a topic on this forum they carefully considered it and submitted an awesome well rounded post..but now, by its 400th inception I'm sure that it's going to be a few things:
a: more succinct, their opinion will be fully developed. Less of a discussion, more of a statement.
b: having a + outcome for themselves, which means that a certain number of these redundant posts will make them (and us) laugh, bolster their ego...w/e
The reality is that they don't have to teach you what they've learned in a way that you're comfortable with; and just like you, they will only be members here based on a + result for themselves...
We should consider ourselves fortunate when posters with such a wealth of knowledge DO stick around for the one liners and fun...because otherwise we'd have lost the opportunity to learn from them long ago.
honest to god, don't talk to me about contributions to the poker community until you are at your two thousandth post in a relevant forum. I've given way more back to everyone here than I've ever taken. For the benefit of that contribution, I require that you deal with my attitude and whatever the fuck else I feel like doing.
You don't like my message? You think I'm short? Then just fuck off, I don't care.
I'd prefer a 'this has been discussed before, use the search' to 'you are a moron' type of approach. But I can't hold everyone to my standards.
And by pointing a new-ish person in the right direction by linking them to your previous brilliance will allow an even bigger ego boost as we will link the awesome response directly with the person who gave it.
I see m_dolens point, if all you are going to do is insult the person without providing them any redeeming value, what's the point?
** Note:** Insult me all you want, I'm married.. I'm used to the abuse.