6 max med PP play
Been looking at my at PT, reviewing some hands, and there are quite a few hands that stick out and before I post them - with some plays with PP that is speculative, I would like to get some opinions.
Assuming table players are all unknown, what is the "default" play with med pocket pairs in various position (UTG, MP, CO, Btn, SB, BB). Are you looking to set-mine, etc?
Assuming table players are all unknown, what is the "default" play with med pocket pairs in various position (UTG, MP, CO, Btn, SB, BB). Are you looking to set-mine, etc?
Comments
- if I get 3bet (3x my raise) I will call most of the time if effective stacks are approx 100bbs
- with limpers sometimes I raise, sometimes I call. More often raise in co/but
- with a raise I call behind looking to setmine. Might float/playback either in position post flop, or c/r if oop or crappy flop.
- not much dif that with small pp, other than straight draws that might change my play once in a while
You don't want to be calling 3 bets with them for set mining purposes especially if there is a fair amount of 3 betting going on at the table.
Take 100NL for example, 100BB effective.
You open to $3.50 from CO and button 3 Bets to $11. You pay $7.5 to try and hit your set. Since you are basically 7-1 you pay $60 to hit your set (8 X $7.5) What about the times he has AK or AQ or if he can lay down AA or KK on the turn. You just don't make enough money the times that you do hit to justify the cost of making the pre-flop call.
I would 4 bet 99 against an aggro player much more often than I would flat his 3 bet.
I don't mind limping behind limpers with 77 or worse if I am in MP but usually I am going to still raise from CO or button.
I will oftentimes 3 bet 88+ from the blinds:
CO or button opens who is like 18/16 or anything looser I will 3 bet unless I have been doing it a ton lately and he thinks I am full of shit.
MP raise I will 3 bet 22/20ish types in good spots but anything tighter I will just call. Considering he is positionally aware.
UTG needs to be pretty splashy for me to 3 bet or again positionally unaware.
I think that is pretty spewy... not saying you should never 4 bet it but i think it is a mistake to be 4 betting it much more often than calling, especially if you are in position
as a general rule you want 20x the amount you put in preflop in the opponents stack to set mine due to all the factors someone listed above me -- basically for when you hit and don't get paid a stack or hit and lose
He C-bets because he has initiative. Where are you? The pot is getting pretty big now because of the pre-flop action. Do you peel a card and re-evaluate on the turn? Your equity with a hand like 99 is getting worse every time you throw another card on the board. Do you raise? Raising a CBet on the flop in a 3 bet pot is gonna be expensive, are you prepared to go all the way with it?
4 betting keeps things a lot simpler IMO.
Well it depends on a lot of things but in general there are not a lot of flops im folding and even fewer flops that im raising.
Simpler doesnt always mean most profitable
1/2NL up to 3/6NL
I sometimes limp with them in the first 2 positions if I have aggro monkeys behind me who are always going to make the raise for me but this is very seldom and totally read dependant.
First off. I like this discussion.
Here is my thought when I used this scenario and called this guy aggro: Not loose, just aggro esp from position. I play $50NL on tilt and there are a ton of guys I would categorize like this. VPIP between 16 and 20. Always raising pre-flop and flat call like never. Maybe 2 point spread in their PFR stats.
These guys can give you nightmares if you can't adjust. What I like to do when the table is too good to just leave is tighten up a bit and start putting them to the test. You know they are 3 betting their entire range against you so you start 4 betting back at them a wee bit light. Pick your spots obviously.
When you flat call the 3 bet and just station the hand like you described you end up playing marginal hands that have virtually no chance of improving for lots of bets. I don't get it. But if you can explain how it make sense I am all ears.
What kind of a range are you assigning this guy and how do you find playing bloated pots OOP with middling Pocket pairs to be profitable?
I like to open 22-88 MP for pot, in EP I tend to limp more and expect a raise which I can 3bet or call depending on opponent.
When I call, I am never looking to checkfold a flop after limp/call. My line really is opponent dependent, but I am either opening or check raising.
15%CF, 30% B, 40%CR
My style is a little more laggy, 30/20/4 so I am really depending on post flop skills. BTW this is for full tilt, where you get alot more opportunity to 4bet on pitbull (my cash cow during work) I rarely do anything but straight forward poker.
The biggest rule here for my style is aggression. I am not calling in position, I not check folding. Although I do both sometimes, I probably 4bet as much as I Check/fold or call/fold.
Oh, and you need to be prepared for variance. I regularly have 500BB swings, but my average PTBB/100 is very profitable and this is over 40k hands.
BTW, I have cut back from Multitabling. I found that when I was 8 tabling I was not nearly as profitable. I am now down to 2-4 tabling depending on the action I have on my tables.
Against a 30/20 I would be 4betting a very wide range including SPP.
Against a <15/<15 it would be an instant fold.
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On a good table wouldnt this almost always be raised from Button or blinds?
The same but I would also 3bet with 22-77 and AJ-A9s, if I am going to play OOP I want a wide range projection.
QFT
Position makes all the difference. OOP against someone who is 3 betting a wide range i think folding > 4 betting > calling with small and mid pairs. Now if there has been a ton of 3 betting going on, you should be 4 betting a decent amount but i would go as far as saying that if those situations come up often at 50NL that you should table select better because there are definitely softer games out there at 50NL.
In position you can definitely get away with calling more since most people play bad in 3 bet pots and won't fire a second barrel unimproved. The only time i think 4 betting a hand like 99 would be better than calling is if the dynamics are such that your opponent would get it in lighter than 99 or you can get them to fold TT, JJ and AQ type hands.
True and I don't mind that. If it gets raised behind me from the button or the CO I am going to have last action pre-flop. So my relative position is good and I am not going to be calling a raise and getting squeezed, I will be seeing a multi-way flop with potential to win a big pot.
The biggest leak that I see in my games is people 3 betting too wide from the blinds. There is a lot of $$$ to be made against people who are 3 betting this type of range out of the blinds. From the button you can flat a lot of 3 bets from these guys, float their inevitable C bet on the flop especially when it is wet and take away the pot on the turn or the river. Pick your opportunites and you can put them in a lot a of tough spots.
100% agree. The scenario given was with hero OOP and I was saying fold is best, 4 bet second best and calling sucks.
Agreed. Making calls here can be done with a bigger piece of your range than just med PP because you can represent such a wide range of hands against the nittier post flop types and take away a lot of good sized pots that they will just abandon on the turn.
Excellent thread!
I'm looking at moving from full ring to 6max.
I'm a clueless newbie at 6max so I welcome any criticism.
Here's what I think based on my full ring thinking.
If I'm totally out of whack please tell me.
I base what I do on the effective stack sizes.
For full ring paradigm: I'm not looking to win the blinds with made hand values. I want to stack people with a set.
In early position with short stacks, say 50bb, I'm probably 80% limp 20% raise. I'm not a big fan of raising. If you raise to say 3BB then your stack to bet, is 47/3 which is a little shallow for set mining. The stack to pot ratio (assuming you're covered) will be 47/7.5. Also if you get raised you can't call for a set mine and get blown off the hand.
With 100BB stacks;
Now if you raise 3bb your stack to pot ratio is 97/7.5 is 13, which is a little small for set mining. I want a stack to pot ratio of 20+ to set mine.
So I would take a quick look at the 3 bet frequency of the people after me before I raised, (you do display 3 bet frequency don't you?)
With no reads I would flat call because I don't want to be blown off the hand. If you get raised to 9bb set mining is not profitable.
With 400BB stacks,
Now you don't get blown off the hand if you raise 3bb and get repoped. Raising is fine since you still have implied odds since the stacks are so deep.
For 6 max:
I'm clueless.
How much of my full ring thinking applies? What else should I be thinking about? I understand that made hands like 88 go up in value in 6 max. I also understand that fighting for the blinds is more important. How much does that effect your strategy?
Reading over this thread you six max guys seem to be thinking on a totally different paradigm than the way I think.
This thread has been a big eye opener to me!
It is still deepstack NL so most of the same theory still applies. Here are few quick points off the top of my head. I haven't played FR in a long time FWIW.
1. Ranges get wider because people are forced to play more hands.
2. You get better reads on your opponents because they are involved in more situations.
3. You need to bring more aggression to the table.
4. Stealing the blinds is very important to your winrate.
5. More action = more fun =D
I don't think 3 betting hands that are easily dominated (A9, QJ...) is very good, especially out of position. I would rather 3 bet T9s than A9s.
Although moreso than full ring, stealing blinds is still not really a factor in NL play.
A solid win rate is 4 PTBB/100. PTBB are calculated at BB X 2.
Every time you steal the blinds you earn 0.75 PTBB.
Think about that. 1 extra blind steal in 100 hands (usually over an hour of online play) is equal to 18.75% of your hourly winrate.
It is definitely a factor!
I really analyzed this thoroughly. Small Pockets 22-66, Medium Pockets 77-JJ and Big Pockets QQ-AA. I used my last 8 months on Party (most hands there) and have 110,000 hands and 6530 pairs. Oddly enough, the odds work out.
Now, this is based on my type of game. Rather Boring, Taggish game (18-25/10-18) where I make a decent PTBB/100. IMO, the real value in Mid pocket pairs is seeing the hand through to the river. Not calling/calling to the river -- more flopping a set or making a set and getting paid off.
Sklansky talks about doing the right things in situations which happen the most often. For example folding a straight flush every time you make one will have a very small impact on your win rate. But, playing KQo to a raise from EP will have a very large impact (-EV). (It's an example only). So, the number of times where you need to four bet with a medium pocket pair is very small and if you don't choose the exactly correct situation it WILL have a negative impact on your EV. So, calling the 3 bet is advantageous in a general sense.
IMO, there are four key things when playing pocket pairs, in order of importance.
1) Stack Sizes: The key is to see a flop. So, if I have a medium stack (20-50BB), I will not put myself in a position where I cannot see the flop or I have to push my stack PF. This means I will limp and cold call vs. raising/re-raising with med. pockets. If I have to put in over 10BB the economics are not there PF.
2) My opponent's style -- this is where some folks are saying they would rather 3 bet or 4 bet super aggressive players PF. Personally, I would prefer to pay a small price up front, as I know I can use that aggressive nature to stack them when I flop a set.
3) Position -- I hate making a big commitment up front when there are players behind me. Ie. EP guy raises I'm in MP with a mpp, I much prefer to call here. Also, if there's a short stack monkey in front of me, with some aggressive monkeys behind me, I much prefer to limp than raise PF. The reason is that I'm going after the large stacks behind me, and I don't want to be in spot where I raise, call, shortie pushes and now I don't know what to do because of the large stacks behind me.
4) My Image at that time -- I can cold call more often when I know I have a weak tight player in front. I can take many pots down by floating them.
Here's my stats and different variations. What you will notice, is my button play (ie. leak) can use some adjustment. However, the real value is winning money post-flop. I only made a small amount PF where I got players to fold. Also, cold calling is very +EV for me.
ummm no
Does Raise/call mean that you raised and then called a 3 bet?
Cold call is where you called a raise.
Call/call is for limped pots.
correct me if I am wrong.
I dont agree with this. I think if you are a very tight player you will have to increase your range but solid fundamental NL is still important.
Your range from Button will defintely be wider, but you will get into alot of trouble if you start playing j9s UTG.
Everything else you said is bang on.
... defining mid-pairs as 77-TT...
I open-raise all.
I 3-bet w/ position vs. unknown opponents. I'm a fan of position when 3-betting light.
OOP vs. known LAGs I may 3-bet, but only heads-up. If there exists a chance of a multi-way pot, I call.
Has this been successful for you?... It gives me the shivers just thinking about it... nothing like 4-betting, creating a 50+BB pot and the flop coming KJ3 w/ 2 hearts to create a little variance.
Ranges definitely get wider... they may widen more as you get closer to the button, but even UTG you should be playing a wider range than in full ring. imo.
Why do you say no?
You don't risk 3.5x to steal 1.5x?
As obv mentioned the purpose of "stealing the blinds" is not winning the blinds. It is a combiniation of building pots, playing in position, ...
NL is a game of stacks. Limit is a game of bets.
Its mostly your opening range which gets wider. For example I'm going to open Axs in MP SH, but prob not Axs in MP Full.
Ball til you fall baby. Exploit the leaks you spot until people adjust. Which I think is the biggest leak at the limits I currently play. Most everyone playing 50NL has a well defined pre-flop strategy but they don't know how to adjust and when they do they do it poorly.
There are lots of TAG types who have a too tight of a range out of the blinds. They are smart enough to realize that playing pots OOP sucks but they don't know how to adjust to a button running them over. Either that or they just don't care to pick that fight. It makes them think too much I guess.
If I have 2 16/14's or tighter on my left I will pound on them until they start to 3 bet me. It has gotten fairly common to get 3 bet by one of the blinds the first time you open a button at a new table. People will do it with any 2 to say, "Hi, don't fuck with my blinds." If you keep it up most just stop playing back at you. Some people just never will play back and you can just keep pounding their blinds all session. Gimmie, gimmie.
This isn't big money but it is good money and if the opportunity is there you should take it.
I think your last statement of NL being about playing for stacks was correct online a few years ago. It is still likely correct and lower limits at casinos or live games.
Nowadays I think that in order to really be profitable you need to be able to spot all the little opportunities to add to your win rate. Building big pots with big hands is still a must have skill to making money but stealing blinds, value betting thin spots, stealing your share of mid-sized pots and all the other little things that make you a few bucks here and there are very important.