Am I a pussy? Bottom end of a straight
Hand from Friday night. Not sure if I was a pussy on this hand but I kind of feel I could have been a bit more aggressive.
BB special (K6 off). Five players see a flop of 7910 with two spades. I check on the flop and a player bets $10 into a $10 pot. Everyone folds and I decide to call. The turn brings the 8d giving me the bottom end of the straight. I bet $20 and the other player min raises to $40. What do you do in this situation? Can you get off the hand on the basis that you have the low end of the straight and he likely has a jack? What do you do in these situations when you have the bottom end of a straight? Do you bet the river or check?
BB special (K6 off). Five players see a flop of 7910 with two spades. I check on the flop and a player bets $10 into a $10 pot. Everyone folds and I decide to call. The turn brings the 8d giving me the bottom end of the straight. I bet $20 and the other player min raises to $40. What do you do in this situation? Can you get off the hand on the basis that you have the low end of the straight and he likely has a jack? What do you do in these situations when you have the bottom end of a straight? Do you bet the river or check?
Comments
fold turn.
I probably wouldn't have called the flop, but if I did, with that board and a min raise, I'm getting away from it unless the other player is aggressive in which case I'd just call, check the river and try to show the hand down cheaply.
Not seeing the flop would have been wrong, considering he was the big blind. Otherwise though, with a bet on the flop, don't think I would have called it. Now on the turn with OESD, I'm still not sure I want to chase it down. Foldsies.
I meant see the flop (obviously not going to fold it's free) but fold to the bet on the flop.
but fold the flop if he can spell NL... or jam it if he has 2pr and can't... or smooth call if he is bluffing...
in general, chasing a gutshot with 1 card to make the bottom straight is pretty friggin horrendous. at least the guy will never put you on it when you hit!
If your plan was to represent if the board flushed it can (almost) be justified.
Playing for implied on the gutshot on this hand is spew. You are not stacking him with a 4 str8 board.
If for some reason I saw the turn in this hand, I would check-call. Leading out is just asking to be raised and you really don't know where you're at. Also, you want to keep the pot small.
/g2
Where was this game, and how do I get a seat?
This is so bad I can't even convert my thoughts into words. Just brutal.
I would guess Georgetown.
Well unlike a lot of forum members who only choose to post their fabulous wins and perfectly played hands, I prefer to try and learn from my mistakes. Granted, calling the raise was very questionable, and I know that, but that's not the point of this thread.
If my logic was flawed, please explain why. This guy was in middle position, LAG and chased a lot of hands down. He usually came out betting when he had a decent hand (did not bluff much).
You are correct, it would be difficult for me to double up with a 4 str8 board. I guess I also thought that he might be bluffing so a bet on the turn might also take down the pot. Hitting my gut shot was only a bonus until he came out with the raise.
The river brought the 3s and I checked with the possible flush on board and not really knowing where I stood with the bottom end of the straight. If he bet on the river, I was done with the hand. He checked as well.
btw, not Georgetown.
Small club north of the city near York U.
Right, so where was all this info in the OP? Re: the bolded statement, if you really believed that then why would you ever call a pot-sized bet?
Also, how is he a LAG who didn't bluff much?
At this point I figure I have 6-7 outs (not sure about Ks) and still have the chance of winning the hand with a bluff on the turn (if the turn was no help). This was my thinking when I called the $10. Not sure why you are focusing on the flop decision as my initial question pertains to the decision on the turn. Obviously the $10 call on the flop was a -ev play. So be it.
Based on cards I have seen him call opening raises with, I would categorize him as LAG. He would typically prefer to do the betting if he got a piece of the flop. Definitely not passive.
Thanks for all this great FLOP analysis guys, it was really helpful. Maybe this different scenerio will get you past the FLOP.
Scenerio #2 - on the flop other player checks. What do you do on the turn when the other player re-raises to $40?
Curse myself for betting 2x the pot, and then fold. There aren't many hands that check the flop and raise the turn that don't have you killed
Ok, so he's a loose caller preflop and straight forward after the flop. You have already said he rarely bluffs, so what are you hoping will happen if you call his turn raise? It seems like the ideal card for you comes off on the river because he's worried about the flush and you don't have to give him any more money.
Just to note, I am usually folding this hand but if I get a read or want to get frisky or have a good table image or guy is tight, then I will raise here not call.
forgive me if there's overlap.
fold the flop.
once you make the decision to make the crazy call to hit your straight you MUST be sure it is good...so just get as many chips in on the turn as you can, while refraining from yelling BINGO! so as not to give off a tell. (fwiw, your opponent must've been the world's biggest tool if you thought you were getting big $$$ in on a 4-to-a-straight board)
If you really called pot unsure that your gutshot was going to be good IF you hit, and/or not prepared to run with it -then you should take up knitting.
1. You decided to complete, nothing wrong with that.
2. I understand the call, I would have a reason for doing it but a battle plan would be quickly drawn up before I the through the 10.00 in the pot. Once I knew the plan the 10.00 goes in.
3. Flop comes and you have a gut shot. What is the purpose behind your check? If you are looking to see what others do, no problem. What is the plan, check raise? Check call see if you hit the straight? Fold to a bet? Any option can be acceptable as long as the battle plan is being laid out. How long do you plan on playing that night? Do you can use this opportunity to your advantage? If so what is the best way to set this guy up or anyone else at the table? See point 3
4. Do you know have a solid plan if the 8 comes to complete your straight? What is it? Check calling small bet on the river? Or raising to put him to a test? Absorb the loss for a bigger win later on.
Everyone has there own style.
You have to decide what yours is. You bet 20.00 into a 70.00 pot and that tells you what exactly when he min raises to 40.00? Is he trapping because he has a made hand or he thinks might be able to get you off with a min raise trying to make you think he has a great hand. Only you can decide that, you are the one sitting at the table. If you wanted real information, play back at him right now.
Seeing as you haven’t mention how much you each have, lets say 500 each. You play back at him for 100 more you will know if he is drawing himself or not and his 2 pair or A 10 is no good. Trust the read.
Analyzing is easier the hand is after the fact. What are your thoughts as you through the 10.00 in on the flop.
Prophet 22
I know this is part of my game I have to work on. I don't re-raise a lot, usually because I have found that it scares a lot of players away, when I want action. It this situation it may have been warranted, as noted.
This is really my dilemma, knowing when to play the bottom end of a straight aggressively.
If the 8 came, my game plan was to milk him and watch out for too much action (top end of straight). With a flush draw on board, I would typically bet pot in this situation but didn't want to chance a big raise, with the hand I had.
We both had about $200 left. I can see now that a bigger raise would have given me a lot more information, and the $20 bet, trying to milk a little at a time was not a good move.
You missed my point:
If you aren't 100% certain that the straight is good if you hit and also reasonably sure that you're going to get paid off when/if it does...
you really need to fold that flop.
So what you are telling me is that you were pot building, but now he re-raised you and now you are unsure? Pot builders believe they have they best hand when they are building the pot or they potentionial will have the best hand.
I wasn't there. He could very well still have a wide variety of hands J 10, A, K, Q, with a 10, or 9 8, suited and was hoping for the Jack, A 10,.
The real question is this: When you hoped the 8 was going to hit, did you believe you would have the best hand? Your answer is you are trying to milk him. With what, the ass end of the straight? but got a llittle scared when he min raise you. Now you are left with two choices put him all in, make him pay for the river and any draw or fold. If you call you have to go through the same process on the river. If you check he goes all in you fold or call. Best advice is to do it after the min raise. If you are wrong you are wrong. Simple.
You really allowed the cards to play you and not you play cards without any real plan in mind.
Sometimes the your wrong and it is expensive. But lesson learned. Don't call without a game plan in mind.
Prophet 22
probably should have taken more time to think about this; sometimes it hard to make these decisions on the fly.
How true. I was hoping for the straight, but when it got there, I was like a deer in the headlights