While exposing your hand makes it dead at Casino Rama, Fallsview lets two heads-up players do whatever they want. I hate it when 2 or 3 buddies at Fallsview keep soft-playing each other and expose their hands to each other then check down the nuts. :mad:
vaguely similar situation at our friendly, neighbourhood casino last night at the table beside me. 5/10 table, guy in seat 2 or 3 goes all-in on the river. guy in seat 10 hems and haws and starts talking out loud, saying 'not sure if i should call or FOLD', with the FOLD part being said much louder than the rest. all-in guy hears 'fold' and tosses his cards into the middle (not yet in the muck...) and reaches out to rake in the 1200+ pot and the dealer grabs his arm to stop him.
can you guess the rest of the story? the game broke up immediately after this. NEVER let go of your cards until the dealer pushes you the monies...
guy in seat 10 hems and haws and starts talking out loud, saying 'not sure if i should call or FOLD', with the FOLD part being said much louder than the rest.
guy in seat 10 hems and haws and starts talking out loud, saying 'not sure if i should call or FOLD', with the FOLD part being said much louder than the rest. QUOTE]
it sure seemed like an angle shot, ya. but also a stupid error. especially since it's the 'big' 5/10 game and these guys 'should' know what they are doing. i'm relating the story from the all-in guy, who moved to our table after the game broke up. he filled in some of the blanks from what we heard going on beside us.
apparently the other guy claimed he said 'call' to the dealer but didn't put any chips in. so when the dealer looked to the all-in guy, all-in guy (based on hearing only the word 'fold' and not seeing any chips move into the pot) assumed the dealer was waiting for his cards. when it became apparent what had happened, the all-in guy tried to grab his cards and turn them over but the dealer would not allow it. the floor ruled the cards were mucked.
from the dealer's perspective he heard 'call' and saw the all-in guy toss his cards in(which does happen a fair bit there, too, when the guys don't want to show their bluffs).
there was definitely a lot of shouting and swearing. always great on a session fee. lol. no surprise that table broke up. when the dealer at our table started looking over, i reminded him WE were on a session fee, too.
bottom line, the all-in guy made a mistake. after talking to me a while at the table, he calmed down and realized he'd learned an expensive lesson. and then donked off a shitload more...
A card "slammed" onto the table at showdown and then bouncing onto the floor will be considered a live card IF the back of the card hit the felt FOR EVEN ONE INSTANT as that is all is required to be properly tabled.
This is yet another reason why the all-in player should have had his nut hand ruled live. Both his cards hit the felt when he tried to table his hand, and just because one card landed face down on the felt does not make it dead. If two cards that are slammed and land face-down on the FLOOR are considered to be properly tabled, then it is even more obvious that the all-in player's nut hand should also be considered live.
ok, so yesterday at our favourite poker pit, UTG+1 raises, folded around to SB, who calls. UTG+1 wasn't paying close attention, sees BB muck (misses SB's call) and tosses his cards to the dealer face down. mucked hand?
ok, so yesterday at our favourite poker pit, UTG+1 raises, folded around to SB, who calls. UTG+1 wasn't paying close attention, sees BB muck (misses SB's call) and tosses his cards to the dealer face down. mucked hand?
I think we've all learned the rules of Fallsview by now, so yes it is a mucked hand... ship the pot to the SB.
However, for lack of consistency's sake I'm going to guess the cards were ruled live and the hand continued.
ok, so yesterday at our favourite poker pit, UTG+1 raises, folded around to SB, who calls. UTG+1 wasn't paying close attention, sees BB muck (misses SB's call) and tosses his cards to the dealer face down. mucked hand?
Please read Bob Ciaffone's (Robert's Rules) latest article on Card Player magazine - Fairness Should Triumph.
"My 10 caught a card edge and rolled over to land facedown. No one said anything, and inasmuch as my card was obviously the top card on the pile, I simply turned it back over. The hand played out, with me winning. As I was raking the chips, someone else at the table said that my hand was technically mucked and that I should forfeit my chips."
:
This writer was entitled to win the pot, and should not be disqualified on a technicality when anyone could see that he made an honest mistake when holding the winning hand. This is exactly the kind of nitpicking, letter-of-the-law thinking that runs contrary to fairness and can produce poor rulings.
I haven't said much in this thread because I don't have as much experience in live play as the rest of you but 13CARDS I think you might be missing the point. IMHO the tournament vs cash game is irrelevant in this example. Blondefish bolded (that's not even a word is it) the part that says "This is exactly the kind of nitpicking, letter-of-the-law thinking that runs contrary to fairness and can produce poor rulings.". The first thing you do is point out that this was a tournament and the player was all in, which IMO is nitpicking and looking into technicality too much.
I know a lot of people here ask for Fallsview Casino Poker Room to post their book of rules for everyone to see. As one Fallsview dealer explained to me, think of the implication of every player pulling out their little rule book and nitpicking at all the little technicalities in there every big hand that they are involved in. It is bad for the game whether a player is doing this or the floor is doing this when it is time for a decision.
Don't get me wrong, I think rules are definitely needed and it is a fine line to walk when you choose to ignore rules for the sake of fairness. I understand it is a tough job and I don't think I would want to do it. I would however listen to posters here, players in the room etc., and be prepared to accept the fact that mistakes will be made.
You seem to ignore everything said in this thread or at least you come off like that in your replies. People keep talking about fairness and you seem to be quoting rules and technicalities. I think there needs to be some middle ground here.
It would be silly to cut and paste the entire article, so I provided the link and like lunatic said, I bolded (yes, it is a word!) the important point that common sense and fairness should not be forgotten in poker rulings. I am willing to bet that if you poll poker room managers who are available online, that the majority would also agree with the forum, e.g., Terry & John from GBH, marinow13 from Caesars Windsor, GBHShift (Lee) from Grey Eagle Casino, John Colville from Golden Nugget, Frank & Jake from Imperial Palace, Leo from Harrah's, Jennifer from Binion's, Garrett from Orleans Casino, Christopher from Treasure Island, Jack McClelland from Bellagio, Matt Savage, Linda Johnston, etc.
Or we can have a friendly bet what the new Fallsview poker room manager would rule after he reads this thread. If he votes in good faith the same as you, then you get a 10% stake in me for the Casino Employees Event I'm planning to play at Binion's on July 5. If he votes like the majority of forumers, then I get a 10% stake in the similar tournament when you play on May 28. Deal? Or do we settle this forum-style and play heads-up for rollz?
BTW: Blondefish, why would you "edit" from the original article and only post an excerpt which disregards the relevant information from the example (ie: that it was a tournament)??
What argument could there possibly be against not being responsible for your two cards in a tournament format as well? I've been to tourneys where someone mucked while all in, and in some they were live and fished from the muck (even when it wasn't obvious what they had) and in some it was too bad for you.
If of course you're referring to the fact that there's a rule around this, that's the same thing you've been doing the whole time - blindly adhering to the written rather than spirit of the rules.... and Blondefish's point once again becomes EXCEEDINGLY relevant.
I don't loathe anything. I certainly don't begrudge their choices. They are free to run their room with badly trained, slow dealers who watch TV instead of deal, make bizarre inconsistent rulings and charge $5 for parking. That's their choice. It doesn't make me upset. Fallsview is clearly not interested in improving anything. I choose not to risk my money there because I have no idea what will happen.
Gambling is a entertainment, service based industry. When I go to a casino I want a reasonably good chance of having a good time. There are plenty of better choices.
Comments
Yep.
Although it may vary from location to location.
But at all the casino's I've been to you can.
I never do this though...
I may be missing out on something but I never do it.
I hate giving information away.... it may not be relevant for this hand.. but for future hands.
What I saw happened at Niagara.
I'm not sure how many of the FV rules apply to Niagara.
can you guess the rest of the story? the game broke up immediately after this. NEVER let go of your cards until the dealer pushes you the monies...
apparently the other guy claimed he said 'call' to the dealer but didn't put any chips in. so when the dealer looked to the all-in guy, all-in guy (based on hearing only the word 'fold' and not seeing any chips move into the pot) assumed the dealer was waiting for his cards. when it became apparent what had happened, the all-in guy tried to grab his cards and turn them over but the dealer would not allow it. the floor ruled the cards were mucked.
from the dealer's perspective he heard 'call' and saw the all-in guy toss his cards in(which does happen a fair bit there, too, when the guys don't want to show their bluffs).
there was definitely a lot of shouting and swearing. always great on a session fee. lol. no surprise that table broke up. when the dealer at our table started looking over, i reminded him WE were on a session fee, too.
bottom line, the all-in guy made a mistake. after talking to me a while at the table, he calmed down and realized he'd learned an expensive lesson. and then donked off a shitload more...
or must they remain a puzzle wrapped in a riddle
However, for lack of consistency's sake I'm going to guess the cards were ruled live and the hand continued.
/g2
Most likely... what happened?
I know a lot of people here ask for Fallsview Casino Poker Room to post their book of rules for everyone to see. As one Fallsview dealer explained to me, think of the implication of every player pulling out their little rule book and nitpicking at all the little technicalities in there every big hand that they are involved in. It is bad for the game whether a player is doing this or the floor is doing this when it is time for a decision.
Don't get me wrong, I think rules are definitely needed and it is a fine line to walk when you choose to ignore rules for the sake of fairness. I understand it is a tough job and I don't think I would want to do it. I would however listen to posters here, players in the room etc., and be prepared to accept the fact that mistakes will be made.
You seem to ignore everything said in this thread or at least you come off like that in your replies. People keep talking about fairness and you seem to be quoting rules and technicalities. I think there needs to be some middle ground here.
Or we can have a friendly bet what the new Fallsview poker room manager would rule after he reads this thread. If he votes in good faith the same as you, then you get a 10% stake in me for the Casino Employees Event I'm planning to play at Binion's on July 5. If he votes like the majority of forumers, then I get a 10% stake in the similar tournament when you play on May 28. Deal? Or do we settle this forum-style and play heads-up for rollz?
What argument could there possibly be against not being responsible for your two cards in a tournament format as well? I've been to tourneys where someone mucked while all in, and in some they were live and fished from the muck (even when it wasn't obvious what they had) and in some it was too bad for you.
If of course you're referring to the fact that there's a rule around this, that's the same thing you've been doing the whole time - blindly adhering to the written rather than spirit of the rules.... and Blondefish's point once again becomes EXCEEDINGLY relevant.
Mark
/g2
zing?
/g2
Gambling is a entertainment, service based industry. When I go to a casino I want a reasonably good chance of having a good time. There are plenty of better choices.