You Be The Floor....

$5-$10 No Limit Cash Game

HUGE POT!! The preceding action has the pot at approx. $3,500 with one player all in. Two other live players remain. The board looks like this:

Q-J-10-x-y rainbow

Chair #1 moves all in for $1,200. Chair #6 is already all in. Chair #8 insta-calls. No more action. 3 players total.

Chair #1 calmly and quietly turns over A-K for The Nuts, his cards are both face up, on the felt and still in his possession.

Chair #8 stands up and throws his cards to the table, apparently attempting to table his A-K for the chop. HOWEVER, only the Ace lands face up on the felt. The other card, which may or may not have been a King, lands face down near the center of the table. The player expects the dealer to turn over the face-down card. The dealer does NOT. The player then reaches to turn over the card himself. The dealer blocks the player's outstretched arm and informs him that he will have a floor supervisor rule whether the card is live or not. The player begins to loudly protest, saying that he has A-K as well and the hand should be a chop.

You are called over, given the above information, and now must rule on the $5,000+ pot.

What is your ruling and why?

(I know, I know. I love posting these things. I promise not to post anything other than MY RULING this time tomorrow night.)
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Comments

  • I rule chair #2s hand dead because he exposed his hand without calling. Chair #8 gets a warning for acting out of turn.
  • moose wrote: »
    I rule chair #2s hand dead because he exposed his hand without calling. Chair #8 gets a warning for acting out of turn.

    I think he means chair #2 was already all in. #8 was the only one with action on him (not out of turn) and therefore action was closed. At least that's the way I read it...
    My ruling (if it's described properly here) would be #2's hand live since it didn't hit the muck and was easily identifiable. (See rule 54 of WSOP 2008 rules.)
    http://www.worldseriesofpoker.com/pdfs/wsop.tournament-rules.08.pdf
  • CN and Fallsview, at least when I dealt there until Nov 06, would rule this as a mucked or folded hand. 2 mistakes here: 1. player stood up which is not allowed and your hand may be folded for that reason. 2. cards were tossed over the line, showing one is not tabling your hand. This hand is mucked and dead. Still the rule 13cards?
  • I say hand is live also.... is there some rule that says if you throw the cards down and it accidentally turns a card over the card is then void?
  • pokrgod wrote: »
    2 mistakes here: 1. player stood up which is not allowed and your hand may be folded for that reason.
    You're not allowed to stand up during a hand at Fallsview? Wow, now I remember why I don't play there anymore...
    As for the rest, I stand by my ruling in the interest of fairness... I do realize that Niagara has some rather unique rulings.....
  • Please see my edit in the original post. I apologize for incorrectly labeling the players.
  • Poll votes reset to 0 at request of OP
  • What changed...i dont see it?
  • Graham wrote: »
    What changed...i dont see it?

    Only 3 players in the hand (Chairs #1, #6 and #8 ).

    No Chair #2.
  • Now I can't vote again...I am gonna try and delete the poll and recreate it.


    EDIT... I think its fixed now.
  • I voted based on not knowing what the rules are there... but I don't see the big deal. If you could identify his hand, then award it to him IMO.
  • I voted LIVE, due to the fact that all actions were closed to all in bets and a call. Once the all in was called, all cards are turned over and pot is awarded. Mind you, that may not apply in a cash game, I'm not sure.
  • Pretty much the exact same situation came up at Fallsview a couple months ago and it was ruled live.
  • I've never played at a cash table in a Casino so I'm not aware of all the rules, but if I were to guess I'd say that since he said 'Call' first before attempting to table his cards, the hand is still live.

    P.S. Is it just me or does the no standing during a hand rule seem a bit ridiculous?
  • If theres any answer that involves killing the hand, you should be immediately fired. That is not the right answer for the spirit of the game.

    Edit: I'd just like to add that if I Chair #8 and you killed my hand, I'd start stabbing people and wouldn't stop till I fried in the electric chair.
  • As you described it here, it's good. The face down card has not hit the muck, and is easily identifiable. If something else was different, my ruling would change (this isn't the hand you told me about the other night, because one detail is different). But hey, I'm a dice-meister... what do I know... keep your poker guys away from my chips.
  • BBC Z wrote: »
    Edit: I'd just like to add that if I Chair #8 and you killed my hand, I'd start stabbing people and wouldn't stop till I fried in the electric chair.

    Note to self... don't play poker against BBC Z at fallsview.
  • IMO i think the players cards still should be live, they didn't touch the muck and it sounds like he was merely trying to flip them over at a speedy pace.

    I don't know the rules and regulations in Ontario casinos though.
  • Live and if I were the player with the tabled AK and the other hand were ruled dead I would insist on the other player getting 1/2 the pot (assuming the other card were easily identified and, infact, a king). This is a situation that a DEALER should be able to handle and not slow down the game by calling over the floor. Needless to say, no tips for this dealer for the rest of the night if he can't effectively keep a time-charge game running.
  • Graham wrote: »
    Note to self... don't play poker against BBC Z at fallsview.

    ... Or anywhere else for that matter
  • jpajamas wrote: »
    ... Or anywhere else for that matter
    /g2 's the only one who can play against BBC Z and survive.. Rocks forever!
  • 1. I ruled the hand DEAD. The entire pot was awarded to Chair #1.

    2. Forward, face down and released is mucked. The face down card was never properly tabled.

    3. To win a pot, a player must show all/both cards face up on the table OR be the only remaining player with live cards.

    4. A dealer should NEVER table a player's card(s) for them; the dealer has access to all of the cards and could switch the cards. Only one player to hand means only that player may turn over cards, not a dealer and not another player.

    5. I did not expect BBC_Z to agree with me; BBC_Z has a long history on this forum about disagreeing about mucked cards.

    6. This is not a tournament, STR82ACE; called all-ins do not require cards being faced.

    7. The dealer did absolutely NOTHING WRONG in this hand; the fault lies entirely with the player.

    8. The easiest thing to do in poker is turn over your cards at showdown.
  • I was pretty sure this was the result you would table 13Cards and I heartily disagree with you. The integrity of the game should be paramount, ie correct result is what should count. It should have nothing to do with amounts, whether or not the dealer should turn up any cards, of course he shouldn't but thats all smokescreen. If you described this situation accurately then you ruled incorrectly. In most large card rooms I have played in I'm pretty sure the hand would have been live, cash or tournament.... Now if you are not telling us the complete story and one of the cards hit the muck, then different story. It sounds like he attempted to table them from your description. I don't always agree with BBC Z but in this case I sure do...
  • Horrid just horrid
  • I voted for muck because I knew that's what 13cards would do and that is why you won't see me in Fallsview ever.
  • A PokerForum.ca first! (correct me if I'm wrong)

    First thread posted from a hospital bed.... I assume that's where Chair #8 put you after making that call.

    I echo moose's you'll never see me in Fallsview.

    /g2
  • I'd play at Fallsview all the time if it weren't an hour away. If you're looking for profitable games at 2/5 and over it's a good place to play. I would never flip my cards as described as I wouldn't want to ever put the house/dealer/floor in a position to take money away from me. That being said it was certainly a horrid decision -- the goal should be to give the winning players the chips. If it were possible to turn the un-mucked card then that should have been done. If you can't trust the dealer to do so then have the player who's card it was do it and get on with the game.
  • WOW.... U made the hand DEAD? Thats rough....
  • I would agree with it being live because:

    Hands are live until it hits the muck OR the dealer touches it. If buddy didnt table his hand properly and one card was face down, he had better hurry up and flip it over BEFORE the dealer could get it.

    WHICH in fact he tried to do. The dealer shouldnt have stopped him. I mean if he just sat there and didnt bother trying to flip it over, then sure, the dealer can muck and it, too bad so sad for him.

    Not too sure how many places have that 'forward motion' means fold. Majority of places have what I stated above to be what is considered a dead hand.
  • g2 wrote: »
    A PokerForum.ca first! (correct me if I'm wrong)

    First thread posted from a hospital bed.... I assume that's where Chair #8 put you after making that call.

    I echo moose's you'll never see me in Fallsview.

    /g2

    You in the hospital? Hope it's nothing serious.
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