I am not upset because I lost money. I am just saying that I would have been consoled by the frustrating play of the entire evening if I had at least made money from the time I put in at the table.
This seems a bit contradictory, and even at the table your comments were about how long you waited for a hand only for him to have a set. No offense, but you made a horrible play. If you were mixing it up some more, than top pair second kicker might be reasonable. But if you're going to play that tight, getting it all-in with 1 pair is silly. Play tight or don't, but in my opinion it appears you switched gears at the wrong time. And tilting off your remaining stack (which was around a full buy-in) with second pair the very next hand isn't such a good idea either.
Absolutely, the slow play was the part of the game that was most frustrating for me. On top of that, the only play vs. this person was to pick a hand, hope you catch the flop, and hold your breath to the river to see what happens. This is not my idea of fun poker. I don't really think that it is profitable poker either, since you take advantage of a small set of your poker skills.
I totally agree - very frustrating, and definitely not "fun" poker. But you have to ask yourself whether you were there for fun or to win money? The majority of the table was having a blast and wasn't annoyed by the slow play - they were actually more annoyed by us forumers who insisted that basic poker rules were followed. So from what I saw, they don't mind the slow play - only we do.
There may be players at the table that were happy with the situation, but where do you draw the line. Does it have to be everyone or is a simple majority of the players enough to make the decision.
I think it comes down to house/casino rules - sorry to put the burden on you Dave . I don't think the table can vote somebody off the island, even by majority vote. If he's following the rules, it's not a problem, and if it's too slow, call the clock (which did happen a number of times).
I am guessing that all of the forumers who played at this table sat there expecting to make money from this fish. However, from what I saw, there was only one person who actually left the table having made money based on this particular person's bad play.
From what I saw, I believe 3 made money (at least 2 were up multiple buy-ins), and 3 didn't (myself included, but I won big last time, so I'm still up ). But who actually made money is irrelevant (results-oriented thinking) - the question is whether the game is profitable and worth playing, and it definitely is.
In the long run, over many sessions, you would probably make money against this player. This is a short run, relatively few number of hands situation.
If he never comes back, it's short run. But he was there before and will be there again, so it isn't short run. And then there's the whole "it's one long game" concept.
Now as far as Dave's OP, about whether to let him play, I'm torn. As a player I want him there - major +EV. As far as disrupting the table, as I mentioned, I think it bothered the few forumers far more than the rest of the table, so it really wasn't an issue to most. If I were the host, I'd leave him be - it is affecting the game, but not in a really negative way when you look at all the pluses and minuses.
Now with all that said, if he were my friend, I'd still talk to him privately. His play is absolutely horrendous and he's destined to lose money the minute he sits down (I actually question if he was the big winner last night, considering how many times he rebought). Just gently let him know (when sober) what's going on, and he can decide if he wants to keep playing or not, and how he wants to play (sober or not).
Ok if you were tilting on the play of one player at an 11 handed table thinking that was the only place to make money then you need to seriously question your focus.
I think my play at the table - with the exception of my last hand of the night - disputes the fact that I was tilting. I guess I have to say this again, that my main complaint is about the fact that there is a low number of hands being played at this table which limits the chance to make money. If you give me a chance to play more than 100 hands per MONTH against the players at this table, then I would happily sit down every night with them.
If people are accusing me of having a clouded judgment because I lost money at this game, then I think I have ask if your judgment is clouded because you were one of the few players who left the game having made money.
Damn right I was annoyed. I think I will need to get a 'CLOCK' chip next time. I called the clock at least 20 times that day but I didn't let it affect my play. My point is he wasn't the only bad/drunk/slow player. Kicking him out won't make one bit of difference in the play/hands per hour. You live with the slow to get to the bad/drunk $$$.
Your dealing was incredible. Working out that chopped pot/4 way allin was a work of art and should be included as an example of every dealer's handbook in every casino in the world. Take tips. You deserve them. Please let me buy your dinner at Dave's next tourney.
I can live with the slow part and the drunk part but the denominations are marked on the chips. After several hours he still could not tell the difference between a $1 and $5 chip. If Sandy had not dealt and helped him through every step of every call/bet/fold, the game would probably still be in its first orbit right now. My inclination is to talk to him when he is sober and let him play as long as he can do so without somebody having to babysit him.
I can live with the slow part and the drunk part but the denominations are marked on the chips. After several hours he still could not tell the difference between a $1 and $5 chip. If Sandy had not dealt and helped him through every step of every call/bet/fold, the game would probably still be in its first orbit right now. My inclination is to talk to him when he is sober and let him play as long as he can do so without somebody having to babysit him.
This is valid. If I'm playing drunk the worst I'm doing is playing a little too fast/aggressive. I may be making a stupid bet but I know exactly how much it is.
Slow players don't bother me at all IN A CASH GAME (I was at this game), and he wasn't all THAT slow when I was there, but from the sounds of it, things got worse.
I was more irritated by the other fella in the tournament with escalating blinds who would take at least 60s every decision... EVERY decision. I'm not much of a clock caller, but I did it twice, and I know of two other forumers who called him multiple times too.
As for the cash game? Well, simply put, the "good" players drool whenever Dave hosts a game BECAUSE of these guys. Slow? Sure. Drunk? Yup. Bingo? Oh yea. Profitable? HELL YES.
As for the advice I mentioned... Dave, you said that you don't like playing the game but do enjoy watching? What if you acted just as a dealer? I appreciated Sandy's efforts last night for the short while I was there, but she was also playing which is difficult. If we had a dedicated dealer only, and had the drunk guy (not me, the other one) seated beside him/her, it may help to at least a degree. It'll still be slow, but I don't think this guy should be kicked out of a - what boils down to - friendly home game just for being drunk. This isn't casino or WPT here... it's "Dave's home game".
Now if you just don't like the dude and don't want him over, that's a different story.
Whatever you choose Dave, I'll be there next time regardless
This seems a bit contradictory, and even at the table your comments were about how long you waited for a hand only for him to have a set. No offense, but you made a horrible play. If you were mixing it up some more, than top pair second kicker might be reasonable. But if you're going to play that tight, getting it all-in with 1 pair is silly. Play tight or don't, but in my opinion it appears you switched gears at the wrong time. And tilting off your remaining stack (which was around a full buy-in) with second pair the very next hand isn't such a good idea either.
I really wish that the forum allowed for nested quotes so this response makes more sense. First of all, let me say that I am glad to see your response in this thread.
I don't know how to mix up my game in this situation. You tell me where anyone at this game won a pot with a bluff. How many times did we see a hand being called with bottom pair. If did play several hands based on the pot odds and position. I made standard poker plays when I could, but those chances were few and far between for me last night.
I will explain my thought process on the last two hands that I played. I was up about $150 for the night when we got to this hand. I knew I was leaving the game within 15 minutes. I had only played one other hand against this particular player and that was an all-in pre-flop where I had A-K suited and he had pocket threes. I won that hand.
Against any other player at the table I would have folded top pair second kicker after my initial pot size bet was reraised all-in. However, I watched this player make the same all-in play with bottom pair or a gutshot straight draw. I could have folded the hand right there, and left the table ten minutes later having made $70 for the evening. Honestly, that $70 meant nothing to me in relation to my personal frustration with the pace and style of play at the table. I decided that if I was going to sit through that game, then I would rather have left with $400 than with $120.
I agree my play on the next hand was awful. It was a pure bingo move. I was leaving within three hands and I caught second pair with a gutshot draw. At that point, I could have left the game essentially my original buy-in, or I could close my eyes and hope to double up once before leaving. I didn't care which one happened at that point.
I totally agree - very frustrating, and definitely not "fun" poker. But you have to ask yourself whether you were there for fun or to win money? The majority of the table was having a blast and wasn't annoyed by the slow play - they were actually more annoyed by us forumers who insisted that basic poker rules were followed. So from what I saw, they don't mind the slow play - only we do.
I am there for fun first, and I wasn't having any fun. I probably won't play in this cash game again with these players. I wish all of you good cards, good flops and good luck in the future when you do play with these people again. There are other games I can play (Georgetown, Niagara) where I see just as many fish, and play at a reasonable pace.
I think you are right for the most part that the pace of play was most annoying to the forumers. I do know that the player to my right was very happy there was a dealer at the table, but at least four or five of the players there would have been content with playing five hands and hour.
I think it comes down to house/casino rules - sorry to put the burden on you Dave . I don't think the table can vote somebody off the island, even by majority vote. If he's following the rules, it's not a problem, and if it's too slow, call the clock (which did happen a number of times).
I agree with this point as well. However, I think that at some point this diverse expectation of play is going to escalate into some more extreme verbal conflict at the table.
From what I saw, I believe 3 made money (at least 2 were up multiple buy-ins), and 3 didn't (myself included, but I won big last time, so I'm still up ). But who actually made money is irrelevant (results-oriented thinking) - the question is whether the game is profitable and worth playing, and it definitely is.
My point about who made money wasn't about how many people made money vs. how many didn't. My point was that from what I saw, only one person made money from the player that was slowing down the play to an extreme. This slow play limited everyone's chance to make money overall.
If he never comes back, it's short run. But he was there before and will be there again, so it isn't short run. And then there's the whole "it's one long game" concept.
This could be a new thread - what someone considers short run vs. long run. I have made my point about why I think that this is a short run situation in other responses.
Now as far as Dave's OP, about whether to let him play, I'm torn. As a player I want him there - major +EV. As far as disrupting the table, as I mentioned, I think it bothered the few forumers far more than the rest of the table, so it really wasn't an issue to most. If I were the host, I'd leave him be - it is affecting the game, but not in a really negative way when you look at all the pluses and minuses.
Agreed, it is all up to you Dave. I can't believe how great a host you are and willing to let other people play while you work.
Much love darlin, but everyone has a choice... if the money you were (could be) making isn't enough to compensate for the frustration, then you hit the nail on the head. This isn't a good table for you, and you shouldn't play! I'm really hoping this isn't coming across all internetty... I'm not being snarky.. I enjoy playing with you, but this isn't life changing amounts of money here, so you play the tourney, and then leave!
Much love darlin, but everyone has a choice... if the money you were (could be) making isn't enough to compensate for the frustration, then you hit the nail on the head. This isn't a good table for you, and you shouldn't play! I'm really hoping this isn't coming across all internetty... I'm not being snarky.. I enjoy playing with you, but this isn't life changing amounts of money here, so you play the tourney, and then leave!
Mark
I hope my response to your response doesn't come off snarky either. I agree that this is my choice and I will choose not to play at this table again with this level of intoxication around me.
There are two reasons that I have been defensive with my posts. First I don't think that people can fairly judge my play (with the exception of my very last hand which I have already admitted was a donkey move) without seeing the cards that I was dealt. Secondly, I have been thinking about this question on a personal level since halfway through the cash game yesterday. As I was driving home especially I was deciding for myself if it was worth it for me to play in the cash game again. I even considered starting a thread on the forum to get people's opinions on the situation. Fortunately, Dave took care of that for me.
Cards / play are off topic... the question here was "How do you deal with a drunk that may be ruining the game for others?". I see that people have made comments about you personally re: losing money / play of hands, but that's irrelevant.
However, a lot of things were said that were true... 1/2 of the people at the table didn't mind at all... and the other half were unable to see past the $$ in their eyes to be overly concerned I think you've already got your answer... if the game isn't fun, why play it? Personally, I'm not really interested in sticking around having a lousy time for the chance to maybe with a couple hundred...
But this game, I will play again (and not fold my KK next time either).
Possible suggestion?
I was more irritated by the other fella in the tournament with escalating blinds who would take at least 60s every decision... EVERY decision. I'm not much of a clock caller, but I did it twice, and I know of two other forumers who called him multiple times too.
MULTIPLE CLOCKS? Shouldn't the player be forced to take a time out after the first couple?
MULTIPLE CLOCKS? Shouldn't the player be forced to take a time out after the first couple?
I suppose we could have suggested something as such, but again "Friendly home game"....
There was a point where he was dealing and started telling a joke and stopped and I said something like "Can you finish dealing? The blinds are still going up and not all of us have huge stacks"....
He was a nice fella and all... not a good player, but he won if I'm not mistaken... it was SICK how many chips he had....
Dave, you said that you don't like playing the game but do enjoy watching? What if you acted just as a dealer?
The only problem I have with this is that I like to get as much of the house cleaned up after the tournament as I can while the cash game is going on. The next one is going to be a 40 person tournament, so if the cash game is upstairs, I can get the downstairs cleaned right away. When I host, all of Saturday is already a right off. It normally takes me all morning to set everything up and then the tournament and cash game go all day and into the next morning. I don't want to be spending all Sunday putting everything away and cleaning. I have a very forgiving wife, but it would not be fair to her to leave the house a mess like it is after these things.
And the reason I don't enjoy playing in this cash game is because the guy can't play without someone helping him. I have played the cash games at Moose's and Johnnie's and I really enjoyed them. If the guy could look after himself, I would not have a problem playing with him. The other guys that drink heavily do play slowly and are sometimes a little loud (Ray always is drinking or not) but they can still play without someone else guiding them step by step through every hand.
I think that we all want a shot at this guy's money. But if he was at your house would you want to have to look after him all night. Sandy did from around 5:30pm till she went home at around 1:00am. I know I would not have the patience for that. To the people that don't have a problem with him playing, would you be willing to babysit him for the night? I am guessing that most would not.
I played in the tournament yesterday, it was 6 hours of concentrated play. I had played in the cash game with many of these players before, including said 'drunk guy'. I have learned that after 6+ hours of poker, I'm getting to the point where my concentration and patience is going to start running thin. Add to that the fact that we're only going to see 15/HPH AND the fact that someone needs to babysit him. I chose not to play. Sure it's profitable if I'm playing good poker but I wouldn't have been. Trevor showed up just for the cash game, smart idea. Mario left after the tournament announcing "I'm not playing good poker, I need to go home". Smart again.
Sandy, it sounds like this was a lesson for you. A positive one for sure, I was reminded of my own limits last time out with that particular player.
It's hard for me to say. For me I feel I played the most patient controlled game of my life. I sat there and happily folded for the vast majority of the day. Normally I need to be drunk to put up with other drunks but I stayed in my happy place for 98% of the day and had a great time. I babysat as many people as I could, not just that one guy. Dave did a great job of enforcing the rules, keeping the forumers happy. I'm not there for world class poker and the ability to run bluffs. I'm there because the game is loaded with whales. Losing that guy will not speed up the game nor eliminate the need for a dealer.
Your dealing was incredible. Working out that chopped pot/4 way allin was a work of art and should be included as an example of every dealer's handbook in every casino in the world. Take tips. You deserve them. Please let me buy your dinner at Dave's next tourney.
Thank-you for the compliment. I actually enjoy dealing poker and have considered doing this after I retire. I actually think the best job that I did that night was when I had to reconstruct the betting after this player pulled in all of the chips that were sitting in front of me, along with the a big pot he had just won.
I showed up for the cash game because I was available that evening to play. I have never played there before and had no idea what the table would be comprised of but assumed average players based on his tourney buy-in.
When I got there there was one table of 11 players. I rarely get to play live so I decided to wait for a seat for a while. Interesting table as you can imagine. I had to wait for an hour because whenever somebody busted, they would rebuy. Can you blame them?
I sat down around 10 but knew I had to leave at midnight. I admit it can a frustrating game to play in, IF you care about that. Half the guys at the table didn't care and the other half were there to try to take token guys money. I knew sitting down that it was not exactly the style of game that I would prefer, but I was taking advantage of my opportunity to play and adjusted to the game. I'm usually a stickler for etiquette, but I just let that go out the window.
I recall more than once talking with Moose and Trevor that you really can't complain about this table (like the old time Party Poker days). It is a dream table for a shark, you just have to pick your spots. I pushed a hand with AT on a T high flop because it's the right play at that table.
Shouldn't the limiting factor be the guy's ability to play the game?....I'm not talking judgement, I mean the actual rules/mechanics of the game. If he wants to push with Q-3 that's fine with me.....but if he's holding up the table, playing out of turn, raking other people's chips, repeatedly having to be reminded to act, etc. then he should be done. The +ev of this guy doesn't take into account the people who don't ever reach back into their pockets to play again because it's tiring waiting for John Q drunk to figure out how many chips he needs to put out to string raise. I wasn't there this weekend but I did view another of his performances and left a lot sooner than i otherwise would have because of it. My question is: If he were sober would you tolerate him slowing down the game for 10 others? Friendly game or otherwise I know I wouldn't. The expectation of another $10 an hour isn't worth my frustration. I can go to work if I need that!
I'm presuming that this is the same drunk guy from the last of Buzzzzard's tournaments.
The fact is that-that guy was obnoxious and maybe had $200 at best in front of him. (this is ONLY .25/.50 or w/e)
You are NOT playing this guy for money (and if you are, I'll give you the contact number for the local foodbank) and as such he was severely impeding the other two aspects of the game: technical and social.
He was a complete pain in the ass and I almost got scrappy with him when g2 and STPboy tried to stack his chips for him to get a count to cash out because he was too drunk to do it himself...AND HE IMPLIED THAT THEY MIGHT BE STEALING FROM HIM!!!!
If you're not good enough to beat Buzzzzard's fish when they are sober making [(20-some hands an hour) - (the drunk guy)] ..quit poker. The gentleman in question contributed nothing to the other sides of the game.
Back to vacation. See ya in a couple days xoxoxoxoxoxo
I have a guy that comes to my tournaments, loses out early, gets totally blitzed and then stars in the cash game. He plays really slow, never knows when it is his turn, can't stack his chips and has no idea about chip denominations. If the dealer does not help him, he would not be able to get his chips into the pot.
I have no patience for drunken players or slow playing so if it were only up to me, I would not let him play.
But here is the catch. He is a terrible player and normally loses lots of money so everyone puts up with him. He will go all-in blind, out of turn, before anyone else has even seen their cards.
Just interested what everyone thinks I should do with him. Do I let him play, or give him the boot?
If it was the regular tournament and he couldn't manage, I would toss him for sure. But for the cash game, not sure what to do.
This guy is a friend of mine and he likes to drink! But he is a happy drunk and usually does not cause a scene. He is respectful to most people and just likes to get wasted. If you have any concerns with him, invite him to the next tournament, talk to him sober and if he agrees with your terms, let him stay, if not ask him to leave. It's just poker and poker is supposed to be fun at this level!!!!!!!!
I don't make money from beating good players.
I make money from having a huge advantage over awful players.
Playing drunks well is a much more useful skill than knowing how to get an extra .003 BB from good players.
Variance is huge.
If you only play 3 hands against the fish a night ... you could easily lose all 3. But you knew that already.
This guy must be really anoying....
This is the first post I've ever seen Waltsfriend be results oriented in, usually you're very solid in your thinking - You must really be annoyed by this guy.
Why not just inform this guy that his drinking, while he thinks isn't affecting anyone else, is really not shining a light on his abilities? Playing a drunk or two in the casino can be profitable, and tolerated by most, but playing someone one who is loaded at a friendly home game, who is constantly making bad plays, and getting lucky doing it, can be frustrating and can easily ruin a good game for everyone.
I don't mind playing against someone who's had a few wobbly pops, especially if it makes them stupid about their game, but my tolerance does have a limit. Happy drunk or not, people are going to be displeased with him.
Why not just inform this guy that his drinking, while he thinks isn't affecting anyone else, is really not shining a light on his abilities? Playing a drunk or two in the casino can be profitable, and tolerated by most, but playing someone one who is loaded at a friendly home game, who is constantly making bad plays, and getting lucky doing it, can be frustrating and can easily ruin a good game for everyone.
I don't mind playing against someone who's had a few wobbly pops, especially if it makes them stupid about their game, but my tolerance does have a limit. Happy drunk or not, people are going to be displeased with him.
when this happens in a cash game, it sucks but i guess you always have the option of moving to another table or cashing out. when it happens in a tourney, you are screwed.
last night at the local donkfest i noted 1 guy at another table being quite boistrous. sounded like he was completely hammered but having a good time.
sure enough, down to the final 2 tables and i get moved to his. it was incredibly painful. he must have taken about 2 minutes each time it was his turn since he just had to play every hand, especially if it had a '2' in it. the average stack size was likely less than 20BBs, maybe even 15. blind levels are 20 minutes.
he couldn't tell the denomination of his chips or tell the difference between colours so he had to pick each one up and gaze at it intently then put it down and move to the next one. we urged him to at least announce his move and let someone else gather the chips for him. but noooooooooooo! that didn't seem to register with him. sometimes he'd stop for a bit to talk about one of his ex-wives. he had the clocked called on him a couple times (and yes one of them was me, for the first time EVER) and the TD ended up standing beside him for quite some time to try to keep the game moving. when he won a big pot he just scattered all the chips in front of himself and didn't bother stacking them, which made his future bets even more slow. someone else ended up stacking his chips for him.
somehow he made it to the final table but thankfully for the others there, he busted out quickly. he was a good natured, happy-go-lucky kind of guy but this level of disruption has no place in a tournament. it isn't fair to the other players as the stacks get shorter. one of the wsop circuit final tables took the chip leader off the table for being so disruptive and i'd like to see places do the same, or at least implement some sort of escalating time penalty for slowing the game down excessively.
Comments
Now as far as Dave's OP, about whether to let him play, I'm torn. As a player I want him there - major +EV. As far as disrupting the table, as I mentioned, I think it bothered the few forumers far more than the rest of the table, so it really wasn't an issue to most. If I were the host, I'd leave him be - it is affecting the game, but not in a really negative way when you look at all the pluses and minuses.
Now with all that said, if he were my friend, I'd still talk to him privately. His play is absolutely horrendous and he's destined to lose money the minute he sits down (I actually question if he was the big winner last night, considering how many times he rebought). Just gently let him know (when sober) what's going on, and he can decide if he wants to keep playing or not, and how he wants to play (sober or not).
I think my play at the table - with the exception of my last hand of the night - disputes the fact that I was tilting. I guess I have to say this again, that my main complaint is about the fact that there is a low number of hands being played at this table which limits the chance to make money. If you give me a chance to play more than 100 hands per MONTH against the players at this table, then I would happily sit down every night with them.
If people are accusing me of having a clouded judgment because I lost money at this game, then I think I have ask if your judgment is clouded because you were one of the few players who left the game having made money.
true that!
although by the end of the night it's usually me who's drunk!!???
Your dealing was incredible. Working out that chopped pot/4 way allin was a work of art and should be included as an example of every dealer's handbook in every casino in the world. Take tips. You deserve them. Please let me buy your dinner at Dave's next tourney.
This is valid. If I'm playing drunk the worst I'm doing is playing a little too fast/aggressive. I may be making a stupid bet but I know exactly how much it is.
Slow players don't bother me at all IN A CASH GAME (I was at this game), and he wasn't all THAT slow when I was there, but from the sounds of it, things got worse.
I was more irritated by the other fella in the tournament with escalating blinds who would take at least 60s every decision... EVERY decision. I'm not much of a clock caller, but I did it twice, and I know of two other forumers who called him multiple times too.
As for the cash game? Well, simply put, the "good" players drool whenever Dave hosts a game BECAUSE of these guys. Slow? Sure. Drunk? Yup. Bingo? Oh yea. Profitable? HELL YES.
As for the advice I mentioned... Dave, you said that you don't like playing the game but do enjoy watching? What if you acted just as a dealer? I appreciated Sandy's efforts last night for the short while I was there, but she was also playing which is difficult. If we had a dedicated dealer only, and had the drunk guy (not me, the other one) seated beside him/her, it may help to at least a degree. It'll still be slow, but I don't think this guy should be kicked out of a - what boils down to - friendly home game just for being drunk. This isn't casino or WPT here... it's "Dave's home game".
Now if you just don't like the dude and don't want him over, that's a different story.
Whatever you choose Dave, I'll be there next time regardless
Mark
I really wish that the forum allowed for nested quotes so this response makes more sense. First of all, let me say that I am glad to see your response in this thread.
I don't know how to mix up my game in this situation. You tell me where anyone at this game won a pot with a bluff. How many times did we see a hand being called with bottom pair. If did play several hands based on the pot odds and position. I made standard poker plays when I could, but those chances were few and far between for me last night.
I will explain my thought process on the last two hands that I played. I was up about $150 for the night when we got to this hand. I knew I was leaving the game within 15 minutes. I had only played one other hand against this particular player and that was an all-in pre-flop where I had A-K suited and he had pocket threes. I won that hand.
Against any other player at the table I would have folded top pair second kicker after my initial pot size bet was reraised all-in. However, I watched this player make the same all-in play with bottom pair or a gutshot straight draw. I could have folded the hand right there, and left the table ten minutes later having made $70 for the evening. Honestly, that $70 meant nothing to me in relation to my personal frustration with the pace and style of play at the table. I decided that if I was going to sit through that game, then I would rather have left with $400 than with $120.
I agree my play on the next hand was awful. It was a pure bingo move. I was leaving within three hands and I caught second pair with a gutshot draw. At that point, I could have left the game essentially my original buy-in, or I could close my eyes and hope to double up once before leaving. I didn't care which one happened at that point.
I am there for fun first, and I wasn't having any fun. I probably won't play in this cash game again with these players. I wish all of you good cards, good flops and good luck in the future when you do play with these people again. There are other games I can play (Georgetown, Niagara) where I see just as many fish, and play at a reasonable pace.
I think you are right for the most part that the pace of play was most annoying to the forumers. I do know that the player to my right was very happy there was a dealer at the table, but at least four or five of the players there would have been content with playing five hands and hour.
I agree with this point as well. However, I think that at some point this diverse expectation of play is going to escalate into some more extreme verbal conflict at the table.
My point about who made money wasn't about how many people made money vs. how many didn't. My point was that from what I saw, only one person made money from the player that was slowing down the play to an extreme. This slow play limited everyone's chance to make money overall.
This could be a new thread - what someone considers short run vs. long run. I have made my point about why I think that this is a short run situation in other responses.
Agreed, it is all up to you Dave. I can't believe how great a host you are and willing to let other people play while you work.
Much love darlin, but everyone has a choice... if the money you were (could be) making isn't enough to compensate for the frustration, then you hit the nail on the head. This isn't a good table for you, and you shouldn't play! I'm really hoping this isn't coming across all internetty... I'm not being snarky.. I enjoy playing with you, but this isn't life changing amounts of money here, so you play the tourney, and then leave!
Mark
I hope my response to your response doesn't come off snarky either. I agree that this is my choice and I will choose not to play at this table again with this level of intoxication around me.
There are two reasons that I have been defensive with my posts. First I don't think that people can fairly judge my play (with the exception of my very last hand which I have already admitted was a donkey move) without seeing the cards that I was dealt. Secondly, I have been thinking about this question on a personal level since halfway through the cash game yesterday. As I was driving home especially I was deciding for myself if it was worth it for me to play in the cash game again. I even considered starting a thread on the forum to get people's opinions on the situation. Fortunately, Dave took care of that for me.
Cards / play are off topic... the question here was "How do you deal with a drunk that may be ruining the game for others?". I see that people have made comments about you personally re: losing money / play of hands, but that's irrelevant.
However, a lot of things were said that were true... 1/2 of the people at the table didn't mind at all... and the other half were unable to see past the $$ in their eyes to be overly concerned
But this game, I will play again (and not fold my KK next time either).
Mark
MULTIPLE CLOCKS? Shouldn't the player be forced to take a time out after the first couple?
I suppose we could have suggested something as such, but again "Friendly home game"....
There was a point where he was dealing and started telling a joke and stopped and I said something like "Can you finish dealing? The blinds are still going up and not all of us have huge stacks"....
He was a nice fella and all... not a good player, but he won if I'm not mistaken... it was SICK how many chips he had....
Mark
The only problem I have with this is that I like to get as much of the house cleaned up after the tournament as I can while the cash game is going on. The next one is going to be a 40 person tournament, so if the cash game is upstairs, I can get the downstairs cleaned right away. When I host, all of Saturday is already a right off. It normally takes me all morning to set everything up and then the tournament and cash game go all day and into the next morning. I don't want to be spending all Sunday putting everything away and cleaning. I have a very forgiving wife, but it would not be fair to her to leave the house a mess like it is after these things.
And the reason I don't enjoy playing in this cash game is because the guy can't play without someone helping him. I have played the cash games at Moose's and Johnnie's and I really enjoyed them. If the guy could look after himself, I would not have a problem playing with him. The other guys that drink heavily do play slowly and are sometimes a little loud (Ray always is drinking or not) but they can still play without someone else guiding them step by step through every hand.
I think that we all want a shot at this guy's money. But if he was at your house would you want to have to look after him all night. Sandy did from around 5:30pm till she went home at around 1:00am. I know I would not have the patience for that. To the people that don't have a problem with him playing, would you be willing to babysit him for the night? I am guessing that most would not.
I played in the tournament yesterday, it was 6 hours of concentrated play. I had played in the cash game with many of these players before, including said 'drunk guy'. I have learned that after 6+ hours of poker, I'm getting to the point where my concentration and patience is going to start running thin. Add to that the fact that we're only going to see 15/HPH AND the fact that someone needs to babysit him. I chose not to play. Sure it's profitable if I'm playing good poker but I wouldn't have been. Trevor showed up just for the cash game, smart idea. Mario left after the tournament announcing "I'm not playing good poker, I need to go home". Smart again.
Sandy, it sounds like this was a lesson for you. A positive one for sure, I was reminded of my own limits last time out with that particular player.
stp
Thank-you for the compliment. I actually enjoy dealing poker and have considered doing this after I retire. I actually think the best job that I did that night was when I had to reconstruct the betting after this player pulled in all of the chips that were sitting in front of me, along with the a big pot he had just won.
When I got there there was one table of 11 players. I rarely get to play live so I decided to wait for a seat for a while. Interesting table as you can imagine. I had to wait for an hour because whenever somebody busted, they would rebuy. Can you blame them?
I sat down around 10 but knew I had to leave at midnight. I admit it can a frustrating game to play in, IF you care about that. Half the guys at the table didn't care and the other half were there to try to take token guys money. I knew sitting down that it was not exactly the style of game that I would prefer, but I was taking advantage of my opportunity to play and adjusted to the game. I'm usually a stickler for etiquette, but I just let that go out the window.
I recall more than once talking with Moose and Trevor that you really can't complain about this table (like the old time Party Poker days). It is a dream table for a shark, you just have to pick your spots. I pushed a hand with AT on a T high flop because it's the right play at that table.
Kudos to Sandy for dealing.
Duane
The fact is that-that guy was obnoxious and maybe had $200 at best in front of him. (this is ONLY .25/.50 or w/e)
You are NOT playing this guy for money (and if you are, I'll give you the contact number for the local foodbank) and as such he was severely impeding the other two aspects of the game: technical and social.
He was a complete pain in the ass and I almost got scrappy with him when g2 and STPboy tried to stack his chips for him to get a count to cash out because he was too drunk to do it himself...AND HE IMPLIED THAT THEY MIGHT BE STEALING FROM HIM!!!!
If you're not good enough to beat Buzzzzard's fish when they are sober making [(20-some hands an hour) - (the drunk guy)] ..quit poker. The gentleman in question contributed nothing to the other sides of the game.
Back to vacation. See ya in a couple days xoxoxoxoxoxo
I make money from having a huge advantage over awful players.
Playing drunks well is a much more useful skill than knowing how to get an extra .003 BB from good players.
Variance is huge.
If you only play 3 hands against the fish a night ... you could easily lose all 3. But you knew that already.
This guy must be really anoying....
This is the first post I've ever seen Waltsfriend be results oriented in, usually you're very solid in your thinking - You must really be annoyed by this guy.
I don't mind playing against someone who's had a few wobbly pops, especially if it makes them stupid about their game, but my tolerance does have a limit. Happy drunk or not, people are going to be displeased with him.
last night at the local donkfest i noted 1 guy at another table being quite boistrous. sounded like he was completely hammered but having a good time.
sure enough, down to the final 2 tables and i get moved to his. it was incredibly painful. he must have taken about 2 minutes each time it was his turn since he just had to play every hand, especially if it had a '2' in it. the average stack size was likely less than 20BBs, maybe even 15. blind levels are 20 minutes.
he couldn't tell the denomination of his chips or tell the difference between colours so he had to pick each one up and gaze at it intently then put it down and move to the next one. we urged him to at least announce his move and let someone else gather the chips for him. but noooooooooooo! that didn't seem to register with him. sometimes he'd stop for a bit to talk about one of his ex-wives. he had the clocked called on him a couple times (and yes one of them was me, for the first time EVER) and the TD ended up standing beside him for quite some time to try to keep the game moving. when he won a big pot he just scattered all the chips in front of himself and didn't bother stacking them, which made his future bets even more slow. someone else ended up stacking his chips for him.
somehow he made it to the final table but thankfully for the others there, he busted out quickly. he was a good natured, happy-go-lucky kind of guy but this level of disruption has no place in a tournament. it isn't fair to the other players as the stacks get shorter. one of the wsop circuit final tables took the chip leader off the table for being so disruptive and i'd like to see places do the same, or at least implement some sort of escalating time penalty for slowing the game down excessively.
/rant