Don't try to tell me that online poker isn't rigged

waltsfriendwaltsfriend
in Online Poker
I am a terrible online poker player, but PokerStars gave me $5 for free so I played with it. I have managed to build my bankroll up to over $100 now. I decided to play a turbo sit-n-go and had this sequence of three hands:

(NOTE: This is not intended to be a bad beat story - only a completely logical evaluation of online poker software at work :))


Hand #1 - I have been trying to fold crappy aces preflop and got sucked in by the min-raise when I was in the big blind. Then I decided to call with the double belly draw except that I knew catching the 6 was probably not a winning hand. Then I catch the 2 and win.

PokerStars Game #13832974885: Tournament #70222887, $3.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2007/12/13 - 11:35:45 (ET)
Table '70222887 1' 10-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: McHot7Dog (1530 in chips)
Seat 2: LuckyMoose99 (4370 in chips)
Seat 3: xxRogéxx (1355 in chips)
Seat 4: Fantixb (935 in chips)
Seat 6: Lady Di 02 (1165 in chips)
Seat 7: KarlKowalski (1395 in chips)
Seat 8: waltsfriend (1380 in chips)
Seat 9: specialsr (1415 in chips)
Seat 10: Heathernator (1455 in chips)
KarlKowalski: posts small blind 25
waltsfriend: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to waltsfriend [As 3h]
specialsr: calls 50
Heathernator: folds
McHot7Dog: folds
LuckyMoose99: raises 50 to 100
xxRogéxx: folds
Fantixb: calls 100
Lady Di 02: folds
KarlKowalski: calls 75
waltsfriend: calls 50
specialsr: calls 50
*** FLOP *** [4c 5c 7d]
KarlKowalski: checks
waltsfriend: checks
specialsr: bets 150
LuckyMoose99: calls 150
Fantixb: folds
KarlKowalski: folds
waltsfriend: calls 150
*** TURN *** [4c 5c 7d] [2d]
waltsfriend: bets 500
specialsr: folds
LuckyMoose99: calls 500
*** RIVER *** [4c 5c 7d 2d] [4d]
waltsfriend: bets 630 and is all-in
LuckyMoose99: folds
waltsfriend collected 1950 from pot
waltsfriend: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1950 | Rake 0
Board [4c 5c 7d 2d 4d]
Seat 1: McHot7Dog folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: LuckyMoose99 folded on the River
Seat 3: xxRogéxx folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Fantixb folded on the Flop
Seat 6: Lady Di 02 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: KarlKowalski (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 8: waltsfriend (big blind) collected (1950)
Seat 9: specialsr folded on the Turn
Seat 10: Heathernator folded before Flop (didn't bet)


Hand #2 - After winning with a crappy ace and essentially a gutshot draw, I figured I should fold the aces preflop. There is no way that I could possibly win online with this hand. But crazy me, I decide to raise preflop and end up going all-in before the flop. At least I didn't have to wait for the river to get beaten.

PokerStars Game #13832997016: Tournament #70222887, $3.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2007/12/13 - 11:37:22 (ET)
Table '70222887 1' 10-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: McHot7Dog (1530 in chips)
Seat 2: LuckyMoose99 (3620 in chips)
Seat 3: xxRogéxx (1355 in chips)
Seat 4: Fantixb (835 in chips)
Seat 6: Lady Di 02 (1165 in chips)
Seat 7: KarlKowalski (1295 in chips)
Seat 8: waltsfriend (2580 in chips)
Seat 9: specialsr (1165 in chips)
Seat 10: Heathernator (1455 in chips)
waltsfriend: posts small blind 50
specialsr: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to waltsfriend [Ac As]
Heathernator: folds
McHot7Dog: folds
LuckyMoose99: folds
xxRogéxx: folds
Fantixb: calls 100
Lady Di 02: calls 100
KarlKowalski: folds
waltsfriend: raises 400 to 500
specialsr: raises 665 to 1165 and is all-in
Fantixb: folds
Lady Di 02: folds
waltsfriend: calls 665
*** FLOP *** [Qd 3d 9d]
*** TURN *** [Qd 3d 9d] [Jc]
*** RIVER *** [Qd 3d 9d Jc] [7c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
waltsfriend: shows [Ac As] (a pair of Aces)
specialsr: shows [6d Ad] (a flush, Ace high)
specialsr collected 2530 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2530 | Rake 0
Board [Qd 3d 9d Jc 7c]
Seat 1: McHot7Dog folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: LuckyMoose99 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: xxRogéxx folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Fantixb folded before Flop
Seat 6: Lady Di 02 folded before Flop
Seat 7: KarlKowalski (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: waltsfriend (small blind) showed [Ac As] and lost with a pair of Aces
Seat 9: specialsr (big blind) showed [6d Ad] and won (2530) with a flush, Ace high
Seat 10: Heathernator folded before Flop (didn't bet)


Hand #3 - Silly me, I should have known after the bad beat on the previous hand I should have pushed all-in with this next beauty. It was clearly the nuts waiting to happen. Alas, I didn't trust my instincts and folded preflop. Why didn't I go over the top???

PokerStars Game #13833007034: Tournament #70222887, $3.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2007/12/13 - 11:38:06 (ET)
Table '70222887 1' 10-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: McHot7Dog (1530 in chips)
Seat 2: LuckyMoose99 (3620 in chips)
Seat 3: xxRogéxx (1355 in chips)
Seat 4: Fantixb (735 in chips)
Seat 6: Lady Di 02 (1065 in chips)
Seat 7: KarlKowalski (1295 in chips)
Seat 8: waltsfriend (1415 in chips)
Seat 9: specialsr (2530 in chips)
Seat 10: Heathernator (1455 in chips)
specialsr: posts small blind 50
Heathernator: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to waltsfriend [6s 2s]
McHot7Dog: folds
LuckyMoose99: calls 100
xxRogéxx: raises 300 to 400
specialsr said, "\o/"
Fantixb: folds
Lady Di 02: folds
KarlKowalski: folds
waltsfriend: folds
specialsr: folds
Heathernator: folds
LuckyMoose99 said, "thats twice pocket aces got beat!"
LuckyMoose99: calls 300
*** FLOP *** [6d 5s 2c]
LuckyMoose99: checks
xxRogéxx: bets 500
LuckyMoose99: calls 500
*** TURN *** [6d 5s 2c] [7s]
LuckyMoose99: checks
xxRogéxx: checks
*** RIVER *** [6d 5s 2c 7s] [8d]
LuckyMoose99: checks
xxRogéxx: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
LuckyMoose99: shows [Js Kc] (high card King)
xxRogéxx: shows [Qs As] (high card Ace)
xxRogéxx collected 1950 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1950 | Rake 0
Board [6d 5s 2c 7s 8d]
Seat 1: McHot7Dog folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: LuckyMoose99 showed [Js Kc] and lost with high card King
Seat 3: xxRogéxx showed [Qs As] and won (1950) with high card Ace
Seat 4: Fantixb folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Lady Di 02 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: KarlKowalski folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: waltsfriend (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: specialsr (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 10: Heathernator (big blind) folded before Flop


I am convinced that the creators of the software basically just sat down and created a bunch of hands to mess with our heads.
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Comments

  • KristyKristy
    Welcome sister Sandy!
  • moosemoose
    I'm sorry. You've confused playing poker with playing turbos.
  • MonteroyMonteroy
    You must not have played a lot if that is the best 3 hand sequence you can create a story about in hindsight to justify a rigged belief (even if a half joking one :P ).

    My best 3 hand sequence was in a Stars sit and go $20 or 30 where I got dealt AA 3 times in a row, got all in preflop and lost every time to go from chip leader to out.

    Also have had identical hands in terms of rank and suit dealt to me 3 times in a row a few times (though I can't recall a sequence of 4). I have had times when multi tabling where I had aces on 3 tables and kings on a 4th dealt at the same time. Often I have had 2 rag BB unraised hands flop monsters at the same time if they could use the other tables flop. I won a Stars sit and go where I managed to be an underdog in every all in preflop I was in (and won most).

    Creating patterns out of short term data is a flawed exercise in and by itself. All it does is prove that wacky stuff happens once in a while which has to happen.

    Probably the strangest pattern I ever had was shooting craps in Vegas and rolling a 2 six times in a row. The odds of that happening after an initial roll of 2 is about 6 million to 1. Not the best use of lottery winning odds :P


    Oh, by the way I never tell rigged believers they are wrong. No point as usually they are quite bad at playing and blaming the site is their way of rationalizing their losses, so why change that belief structure. Better money to agree with them.
  • BBC ZBBC Z
    A year ago, I'd tell you that it's highly unlikely that a large poker site would cheat it's customers.

    I don't have that statement anymore.
  • ReefAquariumReefAquarium
    waltsfriend wrote: »
    PokerStars Game #13832974885: Tournament #70222887, $3.00+$0.40

    Darned right it's rigged.

    Look at how much rape.. errr rake.
  • WaterLooserWaterLooser
    Monteroy wrote: »
    Creating patterns out of short term data is a flawed exercise in and by itself. All it does is prove that wacky stuff happens once in a while which has to happen.

    I had someone arguing the other day that a call he made with a board of KKA85 was justified because the villain had quad Ks only 5 mins ago and the odds of him having that again were too slim. Dude got red in the face angry. "But the odds of it happening twice in such a short amount of time, I had to call!" After about 10 mins of back and forth about it, he conceded that even 1 K would have beat his hand. It was funny.
  • BBC ZBBC Z
    I could see myselg using that logic.

    If yer wrong and he has quads again, then you paid for a 5%-less-boring-than-other bad beat story.
  • waltsfriendwaltsfriend
    Monteroy wrote: »
    Oh, by the way I never tell rigged believers they are wrong. No point as usually they are quite bad at playing and blaming the site is their way of rationalizing their losses, so why change that belief structure. Better money to agree with them.

    Monteroy, you may a clear and well thought out argument. It is obvious to me that you are part of the conspiracy. ;)
  • KristyKristy
    ^^^I actually laughed out loud at this for a full minute. WP Sandy.

    Monteroy is the new -EV (my other fav. poster I don't know)
  • -ev-ev
    Kristy_Sea wrote: »
    Monteroy is the new -EV (my other fav. poster I don't know)
    He kinda sounds like he cares, though.
  • KristyKristy
    you're alive! I thought you'd gone the way of Roxy or xxCindyxx (won our hearts, and then left us in the lurch ;))


    I am equally enamoured with both your posting styles and intend to lurk you two in the creepiest possible way!

    Please ship me locks of hair at your earliest conveniences. Someday when science catches up I'll have them splice both your DNAs and carry the first of an army of super-posters to term.

    WB
  • ChoronChoron
    You guys would have killed yourselves long ago if you were me and my tournament results this year...LOL...(I should have at least 700k-1million in winnings alone this year obv not including high stakes cash)

    Thank god for cash gamessssssssssssssssssss
  • cadillaccadillac
    Kristy_Sea wrote: »
    I am....enamoured with....you..

    Please ship your DNA


    HMMM. Kristy wants you to deposit some DNA

    Please post a trip report.
  • -ev-ev
    Kristy_Sea wrote: »
    Please ship me locks of hair at your earliest conveniences. Someday when science catches up I'll have them splice both your DNAs and carry the first of an army of super-posters to term.
    The girl in that photo can have all the DNA I can whip up.

    Fuck 'science'. Just PM the shipping address for my contribution to your project. I will use a double Ziplock and I'm confident it will arrive in usable condition.
  • KristyKristy
    Fuck science indeed...

    What's more natural than ziploc bags and a turkey baster?
  • BlondeFishBlondeFish
    I prefer the direct deposit option myself. ;)
    -ev wrote: »
    Just PM the shipping address for my contribution to your project. I will use a double Ziplock and I'm confident it will arrive in usable condition.
    P.S. Why do I keep getting the following messages?
    - Please reinsert.
    - Unable to withdraw.
    - Would you like your deposit displayed or printed?
    - Thank you for your deposit. Please come again.

    If -ev is going to tonight's game, forgive me if I don't shake your hand!
  • KristyKristy
    holy shit! does Buddy actually know -ev...I was still convinced he was one of the regulars fcking with us?
  • InsaneGuyInsaneGuy
    Any of you own a strap-on?
  • KristyKristy
    planning a weird hooker 3some?


    (hahahaha, I used it first!)
  • InsaneGuyInsaneGuy
    Kristy_Sea wrote: »
    planning a weird hooker 3some?


    (hahahaha, I used it first!)

    pfft... I opened the door way too wide... damn me.
  • IHPIHP
    I don’t think the Pokerstars website is rigged but it is possible. Most online poker players don’t understand the way good random number generators work. You can read about the Pokerstars random number generator here. Anyone that plays poker should know that anything that can happen will happen. I don’t understand why some people are surprised when an improbable event occurs in a game. It doesn’t matter if a person losses a hand three times in a row with a pair of aces pre-flop. These events are supposed to happen. Winning the 6/49 is a highly improbable event, but it happens. Anytime that a person decides to put their chips into a pot they are taking a risk. It doesn’t matter what hand you have pre-flop. That is why I only play S&G and tournaments. Most people don’t have the discipline to fold a pair of aces pre-flop right before they are about to finish in the money, but I do.
  • KristyKristy
    IHP wrote: »
    Most people don’t have the discipline to fold a pair of aces pre-flop right before they are about to finish in the money, but I do.

    Ok, I got shit for asking the 'stupid' question of skill set vs. field vs. folding marginally ev (which btw I think Caddy's guru Bond inferred he was considering in an article on another forum this week)

    But IHP makes it over an hour after saying this and noone slaughter's him?

    WHAT THE FCK!
  • DrTyoreDrTyore
    Kristy_Sea wrote: »
    Ok, I got shit for asking the 'stupid' question of skill set vs. field vs. folding marginally ev (which btw I think Caddy's guru Bond inferred he was considering in an article on another forum this week)

    But IHP makes it over an hour after saying this and noone slaughter's him?

    WHAT THE FCK!


    Most of us realize it's boring stuff early in the run-on paragraph, and ignore it.

    :)

    But folding aces in a non-satellite MTT or SNG is the poker equivalent of ....... you know what, I can' think of a proper analogy, it's the stupidest fucking thing ever... I say best analogy gets POTD from g2...

    Mark
  • KristyKristy
    I've tried about 14 times to fix that post...wtf is up with 'edit'
  • IHPIHP
    DrTyore wrote: »

    But folding aces in a non-satellite MTT or SNG is the poker equivalent of ....... you know what, I can' think of a proper analogy, it's the stupidest fucking thing ever... I say best analogy gets POTD from g2...

    Mark

    That is the way that most poker players think, but whenever a player loses with AA they usually get angry. I lost count of the number of times that I was at a table in a MTT when someone would decide to go all-in with AA right before they are about to finish in the money. AA usually wins, but whenever it losses the reaction is usually the same. “Oh my god. I can’t believe it. This site is rigged. I hate Jokerstars.” These idiots don’t realize that they are playing a game where they are slaves to a random number generator. Some people like to go on about how much skill is involved in the game of poker, but I would say that it is a game of at least 90% luck and maybe 10% skill. Betting at the right time is the only thing that a poker player can do to increase their probability of wining, but once your chips are in the pot there is nothing that you can do ensure that you will win the hand.

    I believe that it is usually illogical to go all-in in a MTT right before you are about to finish in the money. There are many things to consider when you are a few players away from finishing in the money. How many players are left? (100, 50, 25, 10, 1) How many players are being knocked out every minute? How many chips do you have? How high are the blinds and the antes? Are you going all-in with a hand that probably has a 95% - 100% chance of winning? I believe that it is always illogical to go all-in pre-flop in a MTT when you are within 10 players from the money, and you are 100% sure that you have enough chips to finish in the money. I hate gambling, but I do enjoy playing skill based games for money. That is why my first priority in a MTT is to finish in the money, and my second priority is to win the tournament.
  • DrTyoreDrTyore
    IHP wrote: »
    Some people like to go on about how much skill is involved in the game of poker, but I would say that it is a game of at least 90% luck and maybe 10% skill.


    Hey

    A lot of players feel that way actually...

    We call them fish, and we love them very much

    Mark
  • IHPIHP
    Oh so you’re telling me that you have the ability to make a random number generator give you give four of a kind or a royal flush whenever you need it. Maybe you could teach me how to do that, seeing as how there is so much skill involved in the game.
  • DrTyoreDrTyore
    No... but what I am saying, is that I'm willing to put my entire BR on a 88% favorite because I'm not a fucking tool sitting there pantsless drooling on myself masterbating to gay porn

    I mean

    GG

    Mark
  • DrTyoreDrTyore
    Okay.... maybe I'm pantsless

    Mark
  • beanie42beanie42
    DrTyore wrote: »
    No... but what I am saying, is that I'm willing to put my entire BR on a 88% favorite because I'm not a fucking tool sitting there pantsless drooling on myself masterbating to gay porn
    Well, at least you don't drool...
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