What really is the difference between 2/5 and 5/10
In terms of gameplay and skill level?
In terms of Donkeys and Fish?
Just in general what are the differences between the 2 games?
I've heard the advice to move up and my roll is almost at the point where I could afford a losing session at 5/10 and not be broke so I'm ready to be convinced
And of course I MEANT Limit not NL
In terms of Donkeys and Fish?
Just in general what are the differences between the 2 games?
I've heard the advice to move up and my roll is almost at the point where I could afford a losing session at 5/10 and not be broke so I'm ready to be convinced
And of course I MEANT Limit not NL
Comments
Most 2/5 games have looser players than 5/10 but the rake is twice as much...
Most good players win about 1 big bet an hour or about 3-4 Big bets per 100 hands.
Approximate rake analysis.
2/5 game at Brantford has a rake of 10% max $5
On average about $100 leaves the table in rake an hour. This is 20 big blinds.
This means players lose about 2 BB/hour in rake...
Most players lose about 6-10BB/100 hands to rake..
I don't know anyone who beats the 2/5 game at Brantford and has a reasonable (10K->50K hands) sample size.
5/10 game at Brantford has a rake of 10% max $5
On average about $130 leaves the table in rake an hour. This is 13 Big blinds.
This means the players lose about 1.3 BB/hour in rake
This is about 4BB/100 hands charged in rake.
I need help at 2/5.. ... I mainly play 5/10 Here's my take on how to beat it...
How to play loose 2/5 and 5/10 tables at Brantford..
Preflop...
1. Being suited is roughly a 4% advantage.. ...in crowded 8 player pots this is a huge advantage to win 16.5% of the time vs 12.5% of the time.
2. You must play tight ... you are at war with the huge rake...
3. Play starting hands that do well in multiplayer pots...
Big unsuited cards go *way* down in value in crowded pots... Suited connectors go way up in value...
4. Small pairs go up in value since it's so passive you will get odds to hit your set.
5. Raise you big suited connectors and big pairs or Kristy will threaten you with testicular cancer.
6. Your AA will lose to 27o ... 13% of the time... smile shrug and congratulate the winner.
Postflop.
1. When the pot gets big .. you go into aggressive mode ... players won't go out for a single bet on the flop... but they will pay attention if you check raise or 3 bet... Don't worry about saving bets if the pot is big.. worry about winning the pot.
2. Sometimes you need to forgo a raise on the flop so you can get a raise in on the turn where the bet size is 2.5 times the flop bet size... that can make a person not have odds to call...
.. this should get you started...
BA-DOOM-CH!
that's it, I'm quiting cash games. Too much work.
I've also read that 20-25 hands an hour is average. It seems pretty accurate based on my experience, so again those figures for the 2/5 table imply that either all or the vast majority of hands were $5 rakes, something I just haven't seen.
I think some of the other advice is incredibly useful, I just really want to understand this rake piece better.
Oh if you don't like my rake numbers then feel free to plug in your own.
so if you're getting 22 hands / hour and the rake is 1.50 then only $33 bucks is going to rake... Next time you're playing 2/5 can you try to keep track of the rake and see what it is?
Why I think you will be paying $5 in rake.
You're playing tight and aggressive.
Your opponents are playing passive and loose.
Pots that other players win are small.
Pots that you ram and jam super-aggressively are huge.
You will be mainly winning big pots and losing small pots.
So the rake you're paying on 2/5 pots is usually $5.
You're playing in and winning, pots that you raised pre-flop half the time ...
They are winning pots that are limped in preflop and then checked to the river.
Note: You should be paying attention to the Turn and the River..
This is where you make your money....
This is where the big $5 bets in 2/5 are...
This is where you bloat the pot size up when you have the best hand.
Note: I don't claim to be an expert at 2/5 Limit
Am going in about an hour, will let you know tonight
I also need to be clear that I'm not disputing your advice or your numbers, just looking to fully understand. My goal is to still make the 5/10 table sooner rather than later anyway, but the more reasons I have to do so, will push me to risk more of my roll to make it happen.
Suppose you have tracked your results as diligently as ReefAquarium and me and know that your win rate for $2/5 Limit is $4/hr with a standard deviation of $50/hr, and estimate that for $5/10L, you will have a win rate of $7/hr with a standard deviation of $100/hr. Using the Kelly Criterion, the cutoff bankroll is:
2c = 7 + 4 + (100² - 50²) / (7 - 4)
c = $1,255.50.
Given those assumptions, with a bankroll of more than $1,256, you should play the $5/10 game while with less than $1,256 you should prefer to play $2/5 from a utility standpoint.
Using my $1/2 NL statistics and guessing at a win rate of $20/hr with a standard deviation of $150/hr if I move up to $2/5 NL, my cutoff bankroll would be:
2c = 20 + 18.75 + (150² - 62.42²) / (20 - 18.75)
c = $7,461
Since my bankroll is higher than that, I have confirmed that I should move up from $1/2 NL. So next time any of my friends is going to a 2/5 NL game with a decent rake, I'm in!
I was watching the rake and I was surprised the number of times it was $5, basically anytime it went to the turn or beyond with any betting, the rake was $5. So your numbers are probably closer than I first thought ReefAquarium.
I also tried to count number of hands per hour, but since the dealers change so often at that Casino it really varied, we did 30+ with one dealer and 18 with another.
End of the day, I ended up +$31 after 4 hours so I'm happy with the small addition to my bankroll. (It's a pretty average result for my trips so far). Will keep plugging away!!
Anything less than 3-5k as living bankroll for 5/10 limit is insane. Also, if you aren't beating any limit game for at least 1-1.5bb/h over the long run then you should work at your game before moving up.
Why so much? 3k I could see (for variance) but up to 5k?
I need to get many more trips into the casino before I can speak to my perhour wins so I'm not overvaluing my game.
In my short time playing 5/10 Limit (50hrs), I find that there is not much difference between 2/5 an 5/10.
More $$ to be won.
There are some players that play 5/10 waiting for a 2/5 spot but you need to watch out for the ones playing 5/10 while waiting for 10/20 or 20/40 game (they're easy to spot).
(I can't believe no one got here first)
This is a joke isn't it? 20/40 cannot play the same as 5/10.
I am playing 3/6 & 4/8 right now and am itching to move up. I have the bankroll, but just don't have the confidence yet. I am beating these games, but I don't know if I've hit my "long term" rate...played maybe 500 hours at these levels. Would you say I'm close? I also do okay at 1/2 online (okay, small winner, but rakeback helps
Maybe less passive, but I won't discount it.
My math hero!
20 40 always has a few seats with solid players, but you'd be surprised at the number of clueless passive players...usually 3-4 seats on a weekend.
To really answer your bankroll questions properly we need to know your circumstances.
Can your bankroll be replaced?
What's your tolerance of risk.
How much are you willing to risk losing your bankroll?
What's an acceptable risk 1%? 5%? 25%? 50% chance of ruin?
Do you want to get the maximum money for your poker investment? Or are you willing to get a less optimal result in return for security?
Interesting ...
I'm thinking about moving up to 10/20 or 20/40.
Can you describe 20/40 more?
How much bankroll do you use for your 20/40 game?
How many hours/hands have you played of 20/40?
When do you play?
Excellent questions,
A little about me...
I'm 33, married and have 2 small children (5 years and 1 3/4). So as you can imagine most spare $$$'s go to my family.
I work at a stable steady job, so I have a steady income, but don't have a tonne of expendable cash (for example, my current roll was built from $150 I earned doing a side computer job for cash)
I would prefer not going broke, because my roll will not be easily replaced.
I'm expecting approx +$30 from each trip to the casino (playing 2/5), some nights will be losses, some nights will earn more than that. So far I'm exceeding that expectation (in limited trips).
So the 5/10 question was more about preparing myself as I feel I could play in the 5/10 game and be profitable.
Each time you play you should record your hours played and amount won/lost.
Then you can work out your hourly rate AND your standard deviation.
By the way, the rake in the 2/5 game is so big that you may have a better chance of beating the 5/10 game.
How many hours have you played? What's your win rate per hour?
By the way... Don't worry too much about your win rate per session. ... just think about it in terms of hourly rate.
I do record my session information and include memorable hands, hands I felt I played incorrectly upon review, length of session, where, stakes, time of day, +/- for the session and any information I have gathered on any regular players I see.
I need to add last nights session (which I was still buzzing from when I wrote my reply) to my journal but I'll figure out my hourly rate etc when I get to work and will post.
Don't laugh too hard ok?
My current +/- rate is approx 300 (give or take 5 or 6 bucks). Approx. $8.50 an hour. I had 1 losing session so far of -60 but I know I'm pretty much due.
I also know I need a larger sample size but this is what I've got at present.
Bzzzt. Fail.
What.. I can't forcast a losing session for myself??? BOOURNS!!!