single sng hand
it was still first level. therefore i don't really have a read on anyone yet (i think it was literally 3rd hand in).
Full Tilt Poker Game #3855479239: $5 + $0.50 Sit & Go (29354495), Table 1 - 15/30 - No Limit Hold'em - 18:15:09 ET - 2007/10/14
Seat 1: Big Dog Kujo (1,755)
Seat 2: spazm6666 (1,545)
Seat 3: papatop (1,500)
Seat 4: m_dolens (1,470)
Seat 5: rs19ls11 (1,500)
Seat 6: RDMJR (1,470)
Seat 7: masjas20 (1,500)
Seat 8: bullpen56 (1,500)
Seat 9: KiLlaCoSs (1,260)
m_dolens posts the small blind of 15
rs19ls11 posts the big blind of 30
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to m_dolens [As Ks]
RDMJR folds
masjas20 raises to 105
bullpen56 folds
KiLlaCoSs calls 105
Big Dog Kujo folds
spazm6666 folds
papatop calls 105
m_dolens has 15 seconds left to act
m_dolens calls 90
rs19ls11 folds
*** FLOP *** [2h 6d Qc]
m_dolens checks
masjas20 bets 450
KiLlaCoSs folds
papatop folds
m_dolens folds
Uncalled bet of 450 returned to masjas20
masjas20 mucks
masjas20 wins the pot (450)
what i'm curious about is how others would play this hand. should i be raising preflop? i am in worst position and therefore trying to take it down preflop is probably a good option. however, if i'm raising here i'm committing minimum 1/4 (most likely a 1/3) of my stack on the third hand with three potential callers. however, i didn't really feel like a call was a good play though. i'm leaning towards raise or fold. any opinions?
Full Tilt Poker Game #3855479239: $5 + $0.50 Sit & Go (29354495), Table 1 - 15/30 - No Limit Hold'em - 18:15:09 ET - 2007/10/14
Seat 1: Big Dog Kujo (1,755)
Seat 2: spazm6666 (1,545)
Seat 3: papatop (1,500)
Seat 4: m_dolens (1,470)
Seat 5: rs19ls11 (1,500)
Seat 6: RDMJR (1,470)
Seat 7: masjas20 (1,500)
Seat 8: bullpen56 (1,500)
Seat 9: KiLlaCoSs (1,260)
m_dolens posts the small blind of 15
rs19ls11 posts the big blind of 30
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to m_dolens [As Ks]
RDMJR folds
masjas20 raises to 105
bullpen56 folds
KiLlaCoSs calls 105
Big Dog Kujo folds
spazm6666 folds
papatop calls 105
m_dolens has 15 seconds left to act
m_dolens calls 90
rs19ls11 folds
*** FLOP *** [2h 6d Qc]
m_dolens checks
masjas20 bets 450
KiLlaCoSs folds
papatop folds
m_dolens folds
Uncalled bet of 450 returned to masjas20
masjas20 mucks
masjas20 wins the pot (450)
what i'm curious about is how others would play this hand. should i be raising preflop? i am in worst position and therefore trying to take it down preflop is probably a good option. however, if i'm raising here i'm committing minimum 1/4 (most likely a 1/3) of my stack on the third hand with three potential callers. however, i didn't really feel like a call was a good play though. i'm leaning towards raise or fold. any opinions?
Comments
His bet on the flop though tells he doesn't want a caller here, so I still can't put him on anything more than Jacks, tens or AK. Since you missed the board though, you had to fold up here IMO. Still early in the game too, so I would be watching what this guys likes to play pretty closely.
YES
«Limpin with AK STILL causes cancer»
Mark
Double up or get the hell out GTA? I'm not sure pushing here is the correct play.
Not only do I shove, or make some absurd pot comitting raise (696, 699)..but I probably proceed to tell the table they're a bunch of pussy-b*tches if they fold. Poker DOES NOT happen at a $5.50, it's just about getting action with JJ+ A,Ks. (and I assure, she who shit-talks best gets paid)
your alternate is playing clever poker for 45 mins and then taking the same (or worse) gamble ...I'd rather know first level that I've got the chips to dominate the tournament and spend that time adding to my lead.
You're a guy..try gay-come ons...I'm pretty sure the american's would go CRAZY!
If you want to do that, make sure you shove for 1499, otherwise the chat will be disabled on the allin. Ha ha.
Seriously though, I normally play this very cautiously early on, just as you did, but I am starting to consider the others thinking that a shove is best. Any other kind of raise either commits you to the pot anyways or leaves you short chipped and at a disadvantage for future hands.
Even if everyone folds to the shove, it makes you the chip leader and pretty much establishes you early on as the table captain and will make the others wary of playing with you.
If you lose, you lose. But should you win, either preflop or by the showdown, it pretty much sets you up for the rest of the sng, making it the best play.
I don't mind the preflop call and flop fold here.
If you can read a board, understant hand values, and squeeze maximum value out of all of your made hands, you have no reason to shove pre-flop and play for all of your chips in this spot.....you will get called by lots of weak pairs and have your life on the line in a coin flip.
As played, I like it. A re-raise won't likely take the pot down, so see a flop and get away from your Ace high hand when you miss.
(though it doesn't further my argument...watch the chat!)
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Kristy_Sea: shows [Qh Ah] (a pair of Aces)
trebor1185: shows [Kh Kd] (a pair of Kings)
Kristy_Sea said, "lol"
Kristy_Sea collected 3000 from pot
Kristy_Sea said, "sick"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3000 | Rake 0
Board [5c 9c 8s 4d As]
*********** # 6 **************
PokerStars Game #12638851319: Tournament #64144234, $5.00+$0.50 Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2007/10/15 - 08:39:15 (ET)
Table '64144234 1' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: geo77 (1580 in chips)
Seat 2: CapnVimes (1480 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 3: Psykede (1350 in chips)
Seat 4: trebor1185 (270 in chips)
Seat 5: Kristy_Sea (3000 in chips)
Seat 6: jorom (1480 in chips)
Seat 7: jchan88Allin (1480 in chips)
Seat 8: vanbizzo (1500 in chips)
Seat 9: bezz301 (1360 in chips)
jorom: posts small blind 10
jchan88Allin: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Kristy_Sea [8d 6c]
CapnVimes has returned
trebor1185 said, "wast expecting that"
jchan88Allin said, "sickening"
vanbizzo: folds
bezz301: calls 20
geo77: folds
CapnVimes: calls 20
Psykede: calls 20
Kristy_Sea said, "now might be a good time to mention that I'm sleeping with the dealer"
trebor1185 said, "3 rd time 2day thats happened"
trebor1185: folds
Kristy_Sea: folds
jorom: folds
jchan88Allin: checks
*** FLOP *** [7h 8h 4c]
trebor1185 said, "its a ****ing joke"
jchan88Allin: checks
bezz301: checks
CapnVimes: checks
Psykede: checks
*** TURN *** [7h 8h 4c] [6h]
jchan88Allin: bets 40
Kristy_Sea said, "oh don't whine..embrace the variance!"
bezz301: folds
CapnVimes: folds
Psykede: folds
trebor1185 said, "i wouldnt mind so much but its always the ****ing river card"
jchan88Allin collected 90 from pot
*********** # 3 **************
PokerStars Game #12638878336: Tournament #64144234, $5.00+$0.50 Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2007/10/15 - 08:42:14 (ET)
Table '64144234 1' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: geo77 (1560 in chips)
Seat 2: CapnVimes (1500 in chips)
Seat 3: Psykede (1310 in chips)
Seat 5: Kristy_Sea (3340 in chips)
Seat 6: jorom (1470 in chips)
Seat 7: jchan88Allin (1530 in chips)
Seat 8: vanbizzo (1470 in chips)
Seat 9: bezz301 (1320 in chips)
bezz301: posts small blind 10
geo77: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Kristy_Sea [7s 2s]
CapnVimes: folds
trebor1185 [observer] said, "****ing sick"
Psykede: folds
Kristy_Sea: folds
jorom: folds
jchan88Allin: raises 40 to 60
vanbizzo: folds
bezz301: calls 50
geo77: calls 40
*** FLOP *** [Jh As 9h]
bezz301: checks
geo77: checks
jchan88Allin: bets 60
bezz301: calls 60
trebor1185 [observer] said, "more action hands from poker stars"
geo77: folds
*** TURN *** [Jh As 9h] [3c]
Kristy_Sea said, "oh no, b.l. AND a tinfoil hat?" (b.l.=bad loser)
bezz301: bets 60
jchan88Allin: calls 60
*** RIVER *** [Jh As 9h 3c] [3s]
bezz301: bets 280
jchan88Allin: folds
bezz301 collected 420 from pot
PokerStars Game #12638891863: Tournament #64144234, $5.00+$0.50 Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2007/10/15 - 08:43:45 (ET)
Table '64144234 1' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: geo77 (1500 in chips)
Seat 2: CapnVimes (1500 in chips)
Seat 3: Psykede (1310 in chips)
Seat 5: Kristy_Sea (3340 in chips)
Seat 6: jorom (1470 in chips)
Seat 7: jchan88Allin (1350 in chips)
Seat 8: vanbizzo (1470 in chips)
Seat 9: bezz301 (1560 in chips)
geo77: posts small blind 10
CapnVimes: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Kristy_Sea [7s Js]
Psykede: folds
Kristy_Sea: folds
jorom: folds
jchan88Allin: folds
vanbizzo: folds
vanbizzo is sitting out
bezz301: folds
geo77: calls 10
CapnVimes: checks
*** FLOP *** [Kc 2c 7c]
Kristy_Sea said, "I think that guy wants to be my baby daddy now"
geo77: checks
CapnVimes: checks
*** TURN *** [Kc 2c 7c] [Th]
trebor1185 [observer] said, "cant take it anymore thats the end of online poker for me"
not my best work, but for having less than one coffee I'm reasonably proud of the result..and the rest of the table wanted to nail me so hard. It's a weird dynamic where they want to play..but they can't handle busting to me...I believe the world is your oyster then!
Yesterday I was playing in the hundred grand raise got KK raise 1k preflop some guy calls , flop JJ4 I go all-in he calls with QJ I'm like.. wtf are you doing calling my pf raise with that junk and he said :
"Everyone knows that you lose more money than win with kings"
WOAH!
My hero.
Anyways... just to say I wouldn't shove there... I think.
there was also a few references to how the lower limits (in this case a $5.50 SnG) tends to have a lot of idiots playing in them (and therefore causes me headaches as in the situation previously mentioned). just out of curiousity, what levels are more likely to have less of these kinds of people? is even $11 SnGs high enough? or am i looking to a larger increase like $33 and up?
I can see pushing here if $5 doesn't matter to you and you just want to gamble, but not sure that it's a good poker play. I don't think the skill of a good player is that they can pick a good hand, push, and then win a race -anybody can win with a better hand, or even a coin-flip. Isn't "real poker" or the skill level in being able to know when you're beat and lay down a bigger hand, or to get somebody to fold a better hand to you? I think "real poker" is a post-flop game, and just pushing with AK pre-flop when you have a playable stack is lowering yourself to the level of the donks you are claiming to be better then...
Trevor, wasn't there just a whole thread devoted to you not knowing when to show preflop aggression...
where you openly admitted to limping in with QQ and A-Jo and making monster calls to flip with small pairs?
I don't think you've made a good point specific to the OP here...he can't outplay them post flop OOP. And making the players relative irrespective of buy-in is silly. ave: $109 player IS better than ave. $6 player.
Why not? You are definitely at a disadvantage OOP, but that doesn't mean you can't do anything.
My personal experience and that of others I've talked to is that the play improves slightly but not by much. This is the whole "move up to avoid bad beats" debate, and we happen to have different opinions on it.
That's like saying "real baseball" is all pitching, or "real hockey" is all in forward players. Getting people to lay down the better hand or call with inferior hands is "real poker" regardless of the street on which it occurrs.
Mark
The point is that the best defense is a good offense, I think?
Trevor, bringing that up suggests that you still haven't integrated ideas of preflop aggression. That's all..if I just wanted to get under your skin, a god-slam would have been easier.
Who are these others that would disagree that the ave. $109 player is better than the ave. $6 player...I want to tell them that they are retarded to their face.
"Baseball" is a combination of dozens of elements... batting, baserunning, fielding, pitching, managing, closing, etc etc...
"Hockey" is a combination of fowards, defense, goalies, stick-handling, etc etc...
"GOOD POKER" is a combination of reads, card selection, pre-flop, flop, turn, and river play etc etc...
Example, most players I know would consider someone that plays any two cards (pre-flop) a fish... but they can play those 9-2o very well post flop in some occasions. I would consider someone NOT raising (a significant amount of the time) or not RE-RAISING with AK (pre-flop) playing poorly (yea yea.. circumstances blah blah).... Also, someone who never bets on the river is a poor player, someone who ALWAYS bets on the river is a poor player...
My point is... GOOD poker is a culmination of GOOD play in ALL aspects of the game. Sure, hockey and baseball (the examples I used) have individual people specializing. so maybe something like boxing is a better example. A boxer needs strength, speed, endurance, heart etc etc... to be a GOOD boxer... Sure, he / she can SPECIALIZE, but you have to have some skills in all areas.
Mark
I disagree with this, unless I am taking it out of context. You can definatley outplay a weaker player when you are OOP.
Someone who is super aggro pre-flop (but knows nothing about post-flop play) and who knows how to push-bot in the late stages can easily have a +ROI in $5.50's
But, someone who can play post-flop will always have a better ROI. You can find lots of spots where you build a big enough pot with a great hand that your opponents will call large turn bets while drawing to 2 or 3 outs. This is much more +EV than shoving anything other than AA pre-flop
Your second quote/response had absolutely nothing to do with what I said?
I know you like to fight with me..but c'mon, you're not even trying there.
I disagree with this, unless I am taking it out of context. You can definatley outplay a weaker player when you are OOP.
Someone who is super aggro pre-flop (but knows nothing about post-flop play) and who knows how to push-bot in the late stages can easily have a +ROI in $5.50's
But, someone who can play post-flop will always have a better ROI. You can find lots of spots where you build a big enough pot with a great hand that your opponents will call large turn bets while drawing to 2 or 3 outs. This is much more +EV than shoving anything other than AA pre-flop
QFT
Mark
how's he gonna outplay him..check-raise? gay.
The point is that they got to a flop where the best he can hope for is TPTK with any regularity, and even that's not the majority of the time.
let's presume, he miracles and hits..what other hands are calling and which ones will pay off his c/r that aren't beating him?
So you 'callers' have him gambling against a bunch of players (4?)who are probably only going to call post when winning, and I doubt the con't bet he might get out of one player a tiny fraction of the time that he hits tptk will offset the value of the pot he's likely going to take right now. There are so many in this hand that I do not believe that JJ, QQ etc. even bother to con't bet a flop with an ace or king...So way to give them all a chance to suck out on you for cheap.
If called preflop he's almost always flipping. IF called..I'm dozing off.
...or the ass end of a QJ10 flop.
...or who will call a flop bet when they are on a draw and then put their whole stack in there behind when you check the turn to them.
...or call the turn and the river chasing the flush and then push the rest of their chips in on the river because all they are holding is a busted draw and, OMG LOOK AT ALL THOSE CHIPS IN THE MIDDLE AND THAT'S THE ONLY WAY I CAN WIN'EM.
Quoted For Truth
You've been drinking on your meds again, haven't you?