SNG hand for discussion
Alright all, here's the situation...
$20 SNG (live game) with just forumers, so nobody at the table is a poor player. Three eliminations have left us with seven players left.
Blinds are gradual, 15 minutes and the next level will be 150/300, then 200/400, etc etc....
Blinds: 100/200
Stacks of relevant players:
Player A: $4500 --> Semi-loose aggressive player
Player B: $1200 --> Semi-loose, aggressive player
Player C: $6000 (about?) --> Tight, Aggressive player, but known to make moves
Action:
BB posted by player A, folded around to player B (cutoff)
Player B announces "Well, any Ace, and I'm going all in", looks, and pushes
Player C (button) ponders for a short while, and calls
Folded to Player A who looks down to see Ad10c
Okay, so you're player A, do you:
A) Fold
Call
C) Raise $xxx
D) Raise all-in
Please give me your reasoning behind your selection(s)....
Mark
$20 SNG (live game) with just forumers, so nobody at the table is a poor player. Three eliminations have left us with seven players left.
Blinds are gradual, 15 minutes and the next level will be 150/300, then 200/400, etc etc....
Blinds: 100/200
Stacks of relevant players:
Player A: $4500 --> Semi-loose aggressive player
Player B: $1200 --> Semi-loose, aggressive player
Player C: $6000 (about?) --> Tight, Aggressive player, but known to make moves
Action:
BB posted by player A, folded around to player B (cutoff)
Player B announces "Well, any Ace, and I'm going all in", looks, and pushes
Player C (button) ponders for a short while, and calls
Folded to Player A who looks down to see Ad10c
Okay, so you're player A, do you:
A) Fold
CallC) Raise $xxx
D) Raise all-in
Please give me your reasoning behind your selection(s)....
Mark
Comments
7 people left you have a lot of time left to make additional moves.
Player B - making a move hoping that no one actually has an ace because he doesn't.
Player C - Probably has a pocket pair between 88s-JJs. You have 200 invested, out of position.
You can easily pick up the blinds on the button afterwards and make back up the chips. A10 is a shove hand when 3-4 people are left, not 7.
Pick a better spot.
That is all.
I fold. The reason I fold is because big stack should be pushing here if he wants to play the hand. The fact that he doesn't triggers my spidey sense that something weird is up, and that he's very strong.
Now, the BB gets the feeling that he can get the button caller to fold his hand (which is what I originally wanted to convey with the hesitancy). The feeling is that the person is calling out of obligation to calling the short stack's all in push rather than wanting to call.
Mark
Easy fold, your only other option is shoving and against someone who's called that size of all-in (20% of his stack) can't see how it would be a good choice. You eluded that he is known to 'make moves' but he doesn't make that many and he can't be in this instance: he simply CALLED off 1200. He should be winning against a-10o.
Indeed. Calling here is definately not making a move unless he is trying to lure you into the pot while he is HUGE.
Even if you did shove here you have no fold equity against the big stack. You would be offering him $6750 for $3300. Less than 2-1 and he is priced in to a call.
OH SNAP!
!
If he has AJ-AK, 77-JJ (QQ) he is raising. AA or KK (QQ), possible slow play hands. Very likely the BB has a hand closer to small pair, or any two painted. Possibly A9
If he has AA/KK, I'm beat and going home to fight another day. If I trust my read, which is that I think he'll release if I push, then I have an extra 1200 into the pot against a player that could really have any random two cards.
I think folding is the last thing you do here.
stp
Yeah I was wondering what this comment meant too. Hmmm, I guess Mark is semi-weak and passive. Snappity snap snap!
I guess maybe the read on the BB is important, what's the consensus? Is Mark shark bait or what?
lol
stp
It was definately 100/200.. trust me.... the push was an M of 4... 100% guaranteed.
I guesstimated on your chip stack...
Mark
I said semi-loose aggressive based on my PT stats.. but if I"m def. not, WTF am I?
Mark
Please tell me you didn't call and then fold to a push here...
Pot size is T2700
If you call 1200 the pot will be 3900 and you will have 3300 behind.
If you push to try to isolate the small stack the pot will be 7200 and it will cost him 3300... pretty much a call with anything in his range..
Hand range for small stack player B... His M is 4 ... If he's aggressive picking up the antes will increase his stack by a lot ..
I'd put player B on Q5o+
Player C is a good player. He should know that player B can raise without a good hand.
When a tight aggressive player flat calls and all in I start thinking....
Why the heck is is flat cold calling?
Possibilities....
a) To make use of his position.
b) He's on a move.
c) He has a hand that he wants overcalls
d) He has a hand that plays well against many opponents.
e) He's floating and planning to take the pot away on the flop.
What should you do?
This is a protected hand. Since you can't force out the all in pushing indicates that you are *not* on a pure bluff. Since the villan know that he must give your push a lot of respect.... But since he's giving you the opportunity to make that move ... I really don't know if you should...
If the stacks were deeper and you thought the villan was making an error then you can push and pick up the dead money the villian called with but that is not the case here.
Conclusion: Pushing here is wrong.
Consider how you will play the flop if you call.
You are out of position... this gives you the right to first bluff on the flop but your buffing is blunted since you can only push in 3300 into a 3900 pot. and you can't force the CO out.
Conclusion: Calling looks wrong.
Fold
Just for background, last night I limped in and won a few big pots with AJs and QQ, and I made some big calls with tiny pairs (which were good). During the hand in question, I picked something up on the all-in which actually made me think he had a moderately-big ace (AT-AQ) and I had 99. I know that the all-in players range is fairly wide (ok, he'd push with any 1 card), but I really felt this push had something behind it.
I considered raising, but on the button, it looks like a steal anyway. Also, I didn't think either of these players would call without a hand that was at least a coin-flip (AQ+,JJ+), and those hands would call any raise anyway. Further, since both players to act are good players, I would assume they would also realize that I'm pretty much committed to calling, so they wouldn't make any stupid moves. I felt compelled to call the all-in and race, but I didn't want to get in way behind or race against 2 players. Also, the SB could knock me out, but losing against the BB would drop me to short-stack. As Moose says, I didn't need to win this hand to win the tourney. With different (bad) players behind me, I probably push, but I gave these 2 alot of credit.
I wouldn't go so far as to say Mark is passive, but his aggression is usually first-in. In these spots (all-in and a call) he usually plays a bit tighter, and my read told me that he wouldn't push with a hand as weak as AT. Also, trying to think a bit ahead, I thought what everyone else here has said, that I would have to call, so would he really put his tournament on the line without a big hand. I folded. My read on Mark was bad - can't do anything about that (except respect his pushes less in the future
Anyway - based on my read that I would either flip against 2 players (about 45% to win) or be way behind (about 18% to win) and that players behind are smart players (who would assume I'd call an all-in), I still like my play, since I lose the least possible if beat. However, I must be missing something since everyone hates it so much - what am I missing (or does my thought-process change anything)?
I asked you not to tell me that!
Obviously your brain was working in this situation because you had a thought process and I understand it. Points for that!! I just think you out thought yourself in this spot.
Late game with shortish stacks (everyone here is less than M=15) is a simple game especially when you are playing with knowledgeable players:
Big stacks stay away from big stacks. If I am a big stack or a medium stack and someone who can hurt me pushes their chips in to the pot I must be huge to call. By huge I mean AA or KK only AK maybe. Your call invited a loose push from the BB and you paid for it with 20% of your stack. You should have pushed from the button. It won't look like a steal because you are going to showdown your hand.
If one of the blinds wakes up with AA or KK in the blinds...meh that's poker. But if you are fearing that in this situation it is a leak IMO.
You are a smart guy. I have read your posts. Don't over complicate things.
Meh, it means Mark is Mark.. Love him..but the only time that he has been semi-loose and aggressive is demonstrated in the following
As the player in the small blind in this scenario, I will tell you how I read your call of the short stack all-in. I assume you were huge (aces or kings) and wanted another player in the pot. With a middle pair or any non-made hand such as A-K or A-Q I assumed you would want to isolate the small stack for yourself and I expected at least a raise if not a push.
I am reading mixed messages from the posts here though. Players are telling Mark "looks strong, bad call" while at the same time telling me I should have pushed. If it does look strong, what purpose does the push serve? And if it doesn't look strong, Mark's play starts to look good. Along that line, the main thing I've been thinking about this afternoon is the difference between hands which call/push overtop of my flat-call vs hands which call a raise.
Personally, I think AT was too light to push here (but congrats to Mark for making it), because (as I mentioned above) I thought only AQ+ or JJ+ would call. But if we make the range which plays back at a call as AT+, TT+, KQ and the range which calls a raise as AQ+, QQ+, I think raising is -ev (although I'll have to crunch the numbers). No worse hand will call in either scenario, and a raise commits almost 4x more chips while eliminating less than 1/2 of the hands which would have called (and I'm still flipping at best).
So my question to those who think I should've pushed - what range do you think plays with me if I call vs raise?
Ummm.. in the interest of clarity / avoiding flamewars.. that means fold.
Mark
Nothing.
You had better think some more if that answer isn't instantly obvious.
You push behind Wes there, you're getting called by
AA
KK
AK
Maybe but likely QQ
JJ is VERY marginal
and anything else is a poor call
Me? I would call a re-raise with AA / KK / QQ and MAYBE AKs
Mark
It isn't about equity (as in a hand value vs. his range)in this end game situation. It is about picking your battles and taking coin flips against the small stacks and using the fold equity with your big stack.
I don't know what you are saying here, T9 and AA? These are BB hands that only call?
You asked for hands that would only call you if you called and I said, nothing, unless the BB absolutely hates chips.
BB is not going to commit 25% of his chips into a pot that leaves him no fold equity on the flop and OOP. The only way to maximize the return on his chips and remove his bad position is to push or fold. There is no hand left that only calls.
It is a dry side pot if he flat calls. So BB either hits or misses. If he misses, then he can only hope that his hand beats yours on a check down. If it is ahead preflop, then he should be pushing to isolate. Again, why would he call 25% of his chips off preflop if he is behind and hope to outflop you? If he hits, he has to hope the flop hits him harder than it does you, committing you to a call. It is a dry side pot, there is no other way for him to extract any more chips out of you because if you miss completely you will fold on the flop, so why would he take the chance on you outflopping him?
So clearly, you must have planned on two scenarios when you flat called.
a) you hoped the blinds would fold
b) alternatively you would fold to any push
On the other hand if BB pushes preflop, now he has some fold equity. He makes you fold most hands that beats him and gives him almost 3:1 pot odds against a short stack who may be pushing any two random cards. If the BB is certain he can make you fold then he should be pushing with any 2 random cards himself, if for no other reason than to keep a short stack alive and keep you from accumulating anymore chips.
BB knew this and took advantage and therein lies why you should have reraised first.
Stop thinking about the cards and start thinking about the situation and the opponents. This not a my hand beats yours situation. The chips are the weapon, not the cards here.