Seneca trip report (long)
I wasn't planning to write a trip report, but after reading Cadillac's about Fallsview I figured I might as well. I feel rather verbose today, so go straight to the end for the coles notes version 
We had been planning this for a while, head down and play all night, including the 1am freezeout at the casino. The other guy I was going with LOVES tournaments and isn't too fond of cash games. However his only real money play has been at local home games and he has never played in a casino before. I tried to convince him that the tournament was going to suck and was raked really high ...
To start the trip off, my 1yr old, who usually sleeps through, woke up 3 times the night before we were leaving. Started the day of tired - lets go to work! Napped over lunch. We didn't really want to drive because falling asleep on the 403 sucks, so from Kitchener we caught the "seniorville trolley" to Fallsview at 6:30pm. It's a good way to start a trip -$35, but you get a $10 slot coupon! This bus is the friggin milk run stopping at every place in between. We get to Fallsview around 10pm, lady comes on the bus to give us our slot coupon.
We head to the cage to get our quick $10 to play a couple quick slots before heading for the border. They gave me cash instead of tokens, sweet, in the pocket, let's go, only -$25 now! Walk takes about 45 mins to get from Fallsview to the bridge and over to Seneca. It was a nice walk on a nice night, esp after spending 3+ hours on the bus.
We didn't ask directions, just walked right into the smoke filled main room of the casino to look for the poker room. You don't realize how nice the non-smoking in Canada is until you walk into this giant ashtray. The airflow in there was non-existant. If you haven't been, I would equate the architecture to a drive-shed, so all of the ventilation is really, really far away, 50ft up in the barn's rafters. Finally we ask where the poker room is and someone from security walks us over to the nice private non-smoking room far away from the main casino floor. We sign up for the fp cards and put our names on the 1-2NL and 2/4L lists.
I still had some travellers' checks from my last vacation to Mexico, so I go to the cashier, but the one in the poker room isn't full service, I have to go back into the main casino for that! DOH! Just as I head off I hear my friend called for the 1-2 table. I warn him about the donkery that is about to ensue, but he doesn't beleive me and sits down. By the time I return from the cashier, the seat on my friends' right is open, I sit down beside him (seat 9) and buyin for the max - $100.
Table makeup was hilairous. Good mix of tourists, locals, and drinkers. Seat 1 was a local/rock. Seat 2 was also a local who wore green-mirroed shades, had some chips built up and pushed the little guys around, LAG. Seat 3 was a donk, more on him later, lets call him "Stripes". To fill out the table were LPA, TPA, old TAG (with a lot of chips), tourist, me, my friend. Standard pre-flop raise is currently $12 with typically 3-6 callers. It was pretty wild, I avoided too many confrontations early. Most pots were heads up by the river. Lost a couple, won a couple was a little up when the following happens.
In the BB, UTG raises to $18, 3 callers to me, have 99, so I go along for the ride. Flop Q92 rainbow. No sense in slow playing, I bet $25. Folds to "Stripes" who checks his cards, oops sunglasses are on, can't see, lift the glasses, check the cards, relower the glasses, narrates for a while and eventually calls (I like my chances!). Rest fold. Turn is a 3, I have him covered and put him in. The pot is big enough and I felt he had a draw and would fold. He basically told the whole table what he had, inside straight draw (KT). I really didn't want a call, the pot was big enough. I asked if I could show a card (to try and scare him off, it worked for Dan N on poker after dark last week). They said no. I wanted to argue since "Stripes" verbally told everyone at the table his hand. He finally calls, river - J. Stripes jumps up, fists pumping gives a big woohoo to everyone, tips the dealer $5 and doesn't say a word to me. Guys all around me are laughing, but the one guy said he would rather him have the chips then me, they'd be easier to get for himself. Currently -$100 (includes bus cost).
Tournament starts at 1am, buyin $65. $1500 looks small when they only give you 4x25, 4x100, 2x500. The small stack of chips also seemed to affect the psychology of how everyone bet, bets were large early. Got KK, flop of QT9, he raises, I push, he has K8, turn J, good night 35mins into the tourney. My friend busts out next hand, has J9 on a board of 28JJA, loses to KJ - he didn't see it coming! To make matters worse, the KJ was Stripes!!! -$165 for the trip so far.
We take a break from cards and go for a lunch. All day breakfast refueled us both, back to the action. They ONLY had 1-2 NL tables open after the tournament which filled up quickly as people busted out. However, because they didn't have the bigger tables open, the big players were splashing around lots of chips at the small table. I made back my initial losses from my previous cash session. -$100
We leave the poker room at 4:15AM with 3 tables still going. Start the walk back to Fallsview for the 6AM bus home. We walk rather quickly and get there about 5AM. Buyin for $100 at the blackjack table, hit a quick rush, cashout $200 to end the day DEAD EVEN with the cost of the bus covered. Milk run takes over 4 hours to get back to Kitchener, spent the rest of Friday sleeping it off, but can't wait to go back.
We had been planning this for a while, head down and play all night, including the 1am freezeout at the casino. The other guy I was going with LOVES tournaments and isn't too fond of cash games. However his only real money play has been at local home games and he has never played in a casino before. I tried to convince him that the tournament was going to suck and was raked really high ...
To start the trip off, my 1yr old, who usually sleeps through, woke up 3 times the night before we were leaving. Started the day of tired - lets go to work! Napped over lunch. We didn't really want to drive because falling asleep on the 403 sucks, so from Kitchener we caught the "seniorville trolley" to Fallsview at 6:30pm. It's a good way to start a trip -$35, but you get a $10 slot coupon! This bus is the friggin milk run stopping at every place in between. We get to Fallsview around 10pm, lady comes on the bus to give us our slot coupon.
We head to the cage to get our quick $10 to play a couple quick slots before heading for the border. They gave me cash instead of tokens, sweet, in the pocket, let's go, only -$25 now! Walk takes about 45 mins to get from Fallsview to the bridge and over to Seneca. It was a nice walk on a nice night, esp after spending 3+ hours on the bus.
We didn't ask directions, just walked right into the smoke filled main room of the casino to look for the poker room. You don't realize how nice the non-smoking in Canada is until you walk into this giant ashtray. The airflow in there was non-existant. If you haven't been, I would equate the architecture to a drive-shed, so all of the ventilation is really, really far away, 50ft up in the barn's rafters. Finally we ask where the poker room is and someone from security walks us over to the nice private non-smoking room far away from the main casino floor. We sign up for the fp cards and put our names on the 1-2NL and 2/4L lists.
I still had some travellers' checks from my last vacation to Mexico, so I go to the cashier, but the one in the poker room isn't full service, I have to go back into the main casino for that! DOH! Just as I head off I hear my friend called for the 1-2 table. I warn him about the donkery that is about to ensue, but he doesn't beleive me and sits down. By the time I return from the cashier, the seat on my friends' right is open, I sit down beside him (seat 9) and buyin for the max - $100.
Table makeup was hilairous. Good mix of tourists, locals, and drinkers. Seat 1 was a local/rock. Seat 2 was also a local who wore green-mirroed shades, had some chips built up and pushed the little guys around, LAG. Seat 3 was a donk, more on him later, lets call him "Stripes". To fill out the table were LPA, TPA, old TAG (with a lot of chips), tourist, me, my friend. Standard pre-flop raise is currently $12 with typically 3-6 callers. It was pretty wild, I avoided too many confrontations early. Most pots were heads up by the river. Lost a couple, won a couple was a little up when the following happens.
In the BB, UTG raises to $18, 3 callers to me, have 99, so I go along for the ride. Flop Q92 rainbow. No sense in slow playing, I bet $25. Folds to "Stripes" who checks his cards, oops sunglasses are on, can't see, lift the glasses, check the cards, relower the glasses, narrates for a while and eventually calls (I like my chances!). Rest fold. Turn is a 3, I have him covered and put him in. The pot is big enough and I felt he had a draw and would fold. He basically told the whole table what he had, inside straight draw (KT). I really didn't want a call, the pot was big enough. I asked if I could show a card (to try and scare him off, it worked for Dan N on poker after dark last week). They said no. I wanted to argue since "Stripes" verbally told everyone at the table his hand. He finally calls, river - J. Stripes jumps up, fists pumping gives a big woohoo to everyone, tips the dealer $5 and doesn't say a word to me. Guys all around me are laughing, but the one guy said he would rather him have the chips then me, they'd be easier to get for himself. Currently -$100 (includes bus cost).
Tournament starts at 1am, buyin $65. $1500 looks small when they only give you 4x25, 4x100, 2x500. The small stack of chips also seemed to affect the psychology of how everyone bet, bets were large early. Got KK, flop of QT9, he raises, I push, he has K8, turn J, good night 35mins into the tourney. My friend busts out next hand, has J9 on a board of 28JJA, loses to KJ - he didn't see it coming! To make matters worse, the KJ was Stripes!!! -$165 for the trip so far.
We take a break from cards and go for a lunch. All day breakfast refueled us both, back to the action. They ONLY had 1-2 NL tables open after the tournament which filled up quickly as people busted out. However, because they didn't have the bigger tables open, the big players were splashing around lots of chips at the small table. I made back my initial losses from my previous cash session. -$100
We leave the poker room at 4:15AM with 3 tables still going. Start the walk back to Fallsview for the 6AM bus home. We walk rather quickly and get there about 5AM. Buyin for $100 at the blackjack table, hit a quick rush, cashout $200 to end the day DEAD EVEN with the cost of the bus covered. Milk run takes over 4 hours to get back to Kitchener, spent the rest of Friday sleeping it off, but can't wait to go back.
Comments
Let me help you out here:
Brag: got $$ in good several times
Beat: breathing second hand smoke, and losing to gutshots
Variance: Won $0 and still faired better than Caddy
Huh?
Well, I didn't know where I stood until after I bet out. He still could have been blowing smoke with his chatter trying to induce a read off me or something (however I think that would have been way above the level of play this guy is capable of). I was pretty happy with the call once the cards were on their backs. If he had more behind, it probably would have been an easier fold, but since he committed almost 1/2 of his chips on the table to that hand, I am not shocked of the call.
Should I have bet more than ~75% of the pot on the flop? Less?
Won $0, which is why I wasn't going to bother with a trip report at all. It was your post that prompted me to start writing. I seriously think the walk was worth it to cross the border for the smaller rake and better table selection. For a low limit player like me it makes the mose sense. If you've got the roll to play the bigger game then maybe Fallsview is the better option.
With the Loonie at almost par with the Greenback AND the free booze at Senaca, it's a no brainer.
Better luck next time Adam. (at the poker tables)
Great point! Nice trip report.
I only played 1-2NL ($100 max) (at least 8 tables worth on a Thurs night)
They also had 5-10, 10-20 NL tables going.
Rake was 5% to a max of $4 (I think) except if the pot got over a certain amount they took another $1 for the bad beat jackpot. At fallsview it is a $5 session fee every 30 mins.
Hope this helps.
Adam.
very helpful; don't like the idea of stepping into a $1/$2 game with 50 x BB; although $5/$10 is too rich for my blood. I think you can reserve one hour ahead by phoning in. Some tables will likely be filled up with the on-going satellites into the Octoberfest $1k tournament starting next Monday.
I think Casino Niagara's rake is 5%, $5 maximum, with $1 minimum on the flop. If the average post-flop pot is less than $80, then Niagara is the better place to play, all other things being equal. Below are the rake percentages depending on how big the average pot is.
. . . . . . . . Seneca . . . Casino Niagara
Folded pre-flop: . 0 . . . . . . 0
$5 - $39: . . . 7.7% - 60% . . 2.6% - 20%
$40 - $52:. . . 7.7% - 10% . . 3.8% - 5%
$53 - $80:. . . 5% - 7.5% . . 3.8% - 5%
$81 - $100: . . 4 - 4.9% . . . 5%
More than $100: <4% . . . . . . <5%
When I first read about the $3 rake, my initial thought was to drive to Seneca ASAP, but after doing my usual "math-schmath" analysis, if I was forced to play a raked game of $1/$2, then Casino Niagara would be my choice.
If anybody knows or finds out the correct rake structure of Seneca for $2/$5 and $5/$5 NL, please post.
Good analysis except for this statement. YOU have to put in 100% of the session fee. At MOST you would be putting 50% of the $12 at Seneca, because the rake is taken from the money put in by all the players in the pot.
So with the maximum ten players per table each buying in for the too-low maximum of $100, $100 or at least 10% of the money on the table is gone after one hour. Moose's reply is correct and Fallsview's cost is worse than I first thought.
Assumption for Seneca & Niagara: average of 25 raked hands per hour.
For example, let's say there is an average of 12 pots between $4-$39 and the remaining 13 pots average over $100.
Seneca: 12 * $3 rake + (13 * $4) = $88/hour
Casino Niagara: 12 * $1 + (13 * $5) = $77/hour.
I won't bother posting the algebraic calculations, but unless a table is having more than twice as many $100+ pots as <$40 pots, then less rake is being taken off the table at Niagara than Seneca. You can make varying assumptions, but it is clear that Niagara is better under most conditions. It is virtually impossible to drain as much as Fallsview's $100/hour at either Seneca or Niagara, e.g., it will take 25 maximum-raked hands per hour at Seneca.
Conclusion: Casino Niagara has the best rake structure for $1/$2 NL among the three casinos. Seneca charges a higher rake for the "free" alcohol; only if there are enough drunken :fish: at Seneca's $1/$2 tables would I play there instead of Niagara. Fallsview's $1/$2 is meant for tourists and other people who couldn't care less about rake.
I will probably start playing 5/5 or 2/5 soon, so if somebody can post the correct rake structures for the various casinos, I can analyze which is the best for us to play in.
P.S. I'm sending compuease a bill for doing all his work.
I only compared what I knew (fallsview vs. seneca) but thanks for doing the extra leg work.
Rake is important, but I think the # of tables, games spread and average wait times per game is probably the deciding factor. For $1-2 NL I believe that Seneca has the most tables, therefore shortest wait time, and add in the free drinks (which I would say 4/6 were intaking in mass amounts) and the couple that I had, it's the better choice.
Has CN added tables? Improved wait times?
The last two times I've been at Niagara (a Thursday and Friday night), I've gotten a seat almost right away. At no point were all of the tables filled. Unfortunately, they were not able to get a 2/5 game going either time and the 100 max buy-in at 1/2 is ridiculously low.
But the chips are very dirty (i.e. sticky dirty) and the felt on most of the tables is either old or plastic-like - not aesthetically pleasing.
Fallsview has much nicer tables, but the waiting lists are usually long.
1/2 NL with a 100 max buy in and session fee is not really beatable in the long run unless you have extremely bad players at the table. So I've vowed never to play that game at Fallsview again. The 1/2 game at Niagara (it is raked) is beatable, but you have to put up with poor playing conditions.
Last time out I took the plunge and played the 5/5 NL at Fallsview. It has a reasonable max buy-in of 500 and that makes this game much better for the skilled player than the 2/5 NL, 200 max. I bought in for $300 and I didn't feel like the session fee was eating into my stack. At my table there was a mix of solid players and touristy-types.
If you want to play 1/2 NL, I recommend Rama, where there is a rake and the max buy in is $200.
Yep. Don't forget to tip the dealer the last $1 when you win.
However one thing I like about Seneca is that the floor is much more receptive to the players.
If the players ask, they will run the 3/6 limit with a 1/2 kill.
If the table is not full, if you ask, the floor will often cut the rake. Last time I was there, to keep the 5/10 limit table running, we played for most of an hour 6 max with NO rake. No, I'm not making that up. For the rest of the time when the table was not full we played $1-2 max rake, depending on which suit was working the floor.
Agreed. <=7 we only had $1 rake. Then the dealer forgot to up the rake back to the full amount for about 5 hands once the table filled up.
If going to Seneca and you end up +$400 ($300 from intial) your subject to withholding. Is this true?
Thanks
not sure how they could enforce W/H tax with a cash game? you could always just sell the chips to another player for a slight discount and walk out the door.
4.50/9?!? Or do they just make it 5-10 for simplicity?
FWIW, I can't understand the urge to go to the extra several hours to Niagara when Brantford is right next door to KW (unless of course you're there for tourist stuff/drinking/debauchery, etc.) Brantford may be a hole of a city, but I can't find too many faults with their poker room.
No limit.... but your quetsion was aboutb the limit game in SC
Exactly, NL. If you ask those that play even the 5/10 limit, it's full of fish and you need a good roll to play. I don't have the roll to play that in a single night. $200 is probably my max buyin.
I WANT TO GET PAYED by someone chasing the flush. At least if they hit on the river, I know I had their nuts in a vice. In limit you just go bet/call, bet/call, lose. Blah blah, I don't want this to turn into a whole limit vs. NL discussion, but this is the main reason for the drive.
There is absolutely no witholding at a cash table. You buy and sell chips at the cage, no one asks (or cares) where you are from. Now if you happen to win the jackpot or a tournament that's a different issue.
I'd sooner be getting sucked out on than having to fold all night, but maybe that's just me.
Yep.
The kill is 5/10.
Seneca is an extremely good poker room. I used to go there to make American dollars. Now it will have to be for the ultra cheap shopping.
The free booze used to be a good incentive for me.
There is no comping at the poker tables so they don't track your buyins like they do at a BJ table for example. They would have no idea if you went to the cage and bought $500 in chips and put $100 on the table or $500. They would also not know if you were busted and rebought from your wallet at the table or chips in your pocket or went to the cage for more or took a break and played the table games in the main casino or your buddy gave you chips etc etc etc. You could be cashing out $1000 but into the casino for $2000.