Sorry for bringing back this old thread but I'm new here and was browsing and found it interesting.
1. To claim that FTP support doesn't "care" is a bit dramatic. I would like you to even come up with possible plan of resolution. I write software for a living. I'm sorry but programs don't just click on the buttons by accident. Do you think for a second your wife/gf would fall for this excuse if she found a delivery of pr0n delivered to your house one day? "Honey, I swear I didn't do it...the computer must have clicked on those sites and ordered all that stuff!!!!"
2. You know what a Random Number Generator is right? The community cards in that hand may not be the exact same if the Q8 guy folded. Face it, you were DOMINATED by a legit hand. Without the Q8 person in the hand, you were looking for a 3 outer to win. You play poker, I'm sure you know what the odds of hitting your 3 outer are.
FTP support is eons behind PS in terms of service but in all honesty, there's nothing they can do here. The claims of a misclick are outlandish. Would you have them bring everyone back to the table and replay the hand without the Q8 caller? When you said to pay attention to the chat, I was expecting some type of collusion chatting between players on whether to call you or not.
It's very frustrating to lose a hand like that when your opponent seemed to not even want to be in it. I have heard a lot (negative) about Full Tilt's randomizer, but never something like this.
1- I can almost assure you it was a human error, even if your opponent claims not.
2- Full Tilt really can't do anything about a situation like this so even though thier response may sound uncaring, I think it is justified.
However, in regards to Full Tilt I have the opinion they care the least about security and disclosure as opposed to the other major websites. My opinion here is based on these facts:
They allow any 3rd party cheating software/data mining to be used on their games. There are no restrictions or policies on this and my inquiries to them as such were responded to in a completely deliberate manner.
The site does not have a 3rd party audit system for fair hand distribution. Again my requests for such information from them were at the very least, "standoffish".
It is one of the easiest sites to set up multiple accounts. This sets up the potential for players with larger bankrolls to have multiple identities, and the rounders use every advantage they can.
I do play at Full Tilt, but I am much more secure in my mind that the fair play is unmatched at Poker Stars. This is just my opinion.
that had happen to me once
in a cash game
i click fold
but my money goes all-in.
i remember that day, fulltilt has system problem, i was unable to login that after that incident.
so software does do glitch, but 1/60000 is acceptable risk.
i didn't get a refund and no, i didn't suck out too.
at least with all the suckout at fulltilt, you can be assure that there is no superaccount ^^
that had happen to me once
in a cash game
i click fold
but my money goes all-in.
i remember that day, fulltilt has system problem, i was unable to login that after that incident.
so software does do glitch, but 1/60000 is acceptable risk.
i didn't get a refund and no, i didn't suck out too.
at least with all the suckout at fulltilt, you can be assure that there is no superaccount ^^
I know that this is a true problem, because it did happen to me before too. I did not click call, but I called. Once again, it was a limit game, so it was not a big deal. This put me out of a tournament that I was doing very well in. I don't know whether the same cards would have come if the Q8 didn't call, but I think that I left a tournament without a fair dismount.
I rec'd an email from Full Tilt recently in regards to their randomizer and an audit thereof. I was actually surprised they replied but in saying that, I really wasn't able to make heads or tails of the reply as it included math terms beyond my understanding.
This email was forwarded to BBBobb and I was (still am) hoping he makes some sense out if it and posts it here.
The only good thing I was able to get out of the response is that they are looking into a 3rd party audit.....stay tuned.
Sorry for bringing back this old thread but I'm new here and was browsing and found it interesting.
1. To claim that FTP support doesn't "care" is a bit dramatic. I would like you to even come up with possible plan of resolution. I write software for a living. I'm sorry but programs don't just click on the buttons by accident. Do you think for a second your wife/gf would fall for this excuse if she found a delivery of pr0n delivered to your house one day? "Honey, I swear I didn't do it...the computer must have clicked on those sites and ordered all that stuff!!!!"
As a fellow software developer I'm sure you can appreciate the concept of 'bugs' in software. As updates are rolled out by the various poker clients (and they are updated quite frequently), strange untested-for cases do emerge. I can of course assume that you write only bug-free software and have never had an unintended side effect in any of the projects you have written if this concept seems unfamiliar to you.
For the record, I play on Jungle Poker and there are bugs in that software which include rare cases where you are auto-folded even after you come back from being away and focus changes that occur in the middle of typing in the chat window.
Regardless of your professional background, these poker sites are in the SERVICE industry, they are hoping they put up enough money, attract enough pros to play with the shmoes to entice people to deposit, play, lose, and reload as needed to keep their doors open and turn a profit. The most important part of this process is the customer service portion. Casinos for the most part do this right (free drinks to the table, comped meals etc) and it's not unfair or unreasonable to expect online poker site customer support people to be fluent in the language they are conversing with patrons in (within reason) and be able to provide real, intelligent conversation about a patrons concern. This is a MAJOR flaw of online sites right now, and one that they should be looking at improving as the poker boom wanes and customers stop flocking to their site.
As a fellow software developer I'm sure you can appreciate the concept of 'bugs' in software. As updates are rolled out by the various poker clients (and they are updated quite frequently), strange untested-for cases do emerge. I can of course assume that you write only bug-free software and have never had an unintended side effect in any of the projects you have written if this concept seems unfamiliar to you.
For the record, I play on Jungle Poker and there are bugs in that software which include rare cases where you are auto-folded even after you come back from being away and focus changes that occur in the middle of typing in the chat window.
Please don't patronize me. Seeing as you are a developer yourself, did you even bother to think of what is involved to randomly click a button itself before you tried to disparage me? You have to explicitly send an event to the button for it to click. No where in FTP's interface is there any similar behaviour where a button is auto clicked for the user. So to think that they'd put that code in there (when there is no functional requirement) AND accidently invoke on a random basis is preposterous.
Of course I understand that most (if not all) software has bugs. But the problem being discussed is like claiming that your car was sitting in the driveway and the ignition started all by itself. The excuse you provide with Jungle Poker is akin to switching off the air conditioner but it stays on because the switch is faulty. Big big difference. I dont even have to see Jungle Poker or look at the code to give you a good idea of what those bugs are and where in their program logic it's happening. It should be obvious to a developer such as yourself. But random button clicks in this context is a bit of a stretch. Where I can imagine buttons clicking themselves would be testing application software as that type of behaviour is required, the logic of when to click it may be faulty but at least that event is expected.
Problem with alot of poker client interfaces is the UI. Alot of sites seem to think it's a good idea to provide a preaction checkbox to the user, and then automatically change that checkbox to a button as action gets to you. That is poor interface design as I can imagine people go to check the fold box and then just before they check it, the screen changes and the checkboxes are replaced with buttons and they may accidently click on the Call. If you ask me, I think this is more than likely the cause of the problem. Preaction check boxes should be available but in a distinct location on the screen.
We're not talking about typical bugs. You're talking about uninitiated mouse click events or buttons just clicking by themself. I have never seen any program in all my years of computing, just randomly do mouse clicks (unless you intentionally write one). Buttons that dont do anything when click, I've seen. But never ever have I seen the mouse simply start clicking away or buttons in a program start clicking themselves.
Anyways, for best customer service, site availability, etc. Poker Stars is #1 by far. However, they don't provide rakeback so pick your poison.
Has anyone here deposited the max ($600) and earned the max bonus? I don't have a FT account yet, but was thinking about their $600 sign up bonus deposit.
Yes... you do get the full bonus...but it takes awhile...
If you sign up through http://www.winatpokernow.com/ you can also get a free 500 piece set of poker chips as well as... look for the website of the day special...
Problem with alot of poker client interfaces is the UI. Alot of sites seem to think it's a good idea to provide a preaction checkbox to the user, and then automatically change that checkbox to a button as action gets to you. That is poor interface design as I can imagine people go to check the fold box and then just before they check it, the screen changes and the checkboxes are replaced with buttons and they may accidently click on the Call. If you ask me, I think this is more than likely the cause of the problem. Preaction check boxes should be available but in a distinct location on the screen.
We're not talking about typical bugs. You're talking about uninitiated mouse click events or buttons just clicking by themself. I have never seen any program in all my years of computing, just randomly do mouse clicks (unless you intentionally write one). Buttons that dont do anything when click, I've seen. But never ever have I seen the mouse simply start clicking away or buttons in a program start clicking themselves.
Who said the button had to be clicked? If there is an error in the programming that causes the code which is triggered by the user actually clicking the button to run at an instance when it should not, that can cause the same result. When you check the auto-fold button and the action gets to you, do you think the program will act like you clicked the fold button? Does anybody ever see the fold button being highlighted and then depressing as you would with the mouse click? No, but is there any reason it can't be running the same set of code after that visual aspect occurs?
I am not saying I believe for a second that there is something like this going on, but all programs have bugs, which is why you will be asked to upgrade the software periodically when you log in to the site. All I'm saying is it could be possible for an error to exist in the code referenced by one of the buttons on the UI and with sofisticated random number generators in place that operate on a very large set of numbers, it is possible that only a small subset of these values will trigger the error.
As far as the idea that the auto-fold check box will turn into a call button or something like that, are there actually sites out there where the fold/call/raise buttons don't line up with the auto-action buttons of the same intent? I can see going to check "Call xxx" and having the person on your right raise and as you go to click it changes to a call of some larger bet, but any reasonable UI has these buttons lining up. They change the order of the buttons from site to site, but I can't see a site designing a UI where you have the fold checkbox being in the same place where a raise button would occur.
Who said the button had to be clicked? If there is an error in the programming that causes the code which is triggered by the user actually clicking the button to run at an instance when it should not, that can cause the same result. When you check the auto-fold button and the action gets to you, do you think the program will act like you clicked the fold button?
No. The end result is same but the program logic isn't. When the auto fold is checked, the program simply checks the status of the autofold variable and performs the fold action. When you click a button, an event is triggered and the event hook most likel calls the same code that performs a fold action. I'm not sure where you're going with this. The OP didn't say the auto fold option was checked, he claimed that he didn't press anything and it simply called for him.
Does anybody ever see the fold button being highlighted and then depressing as you would with the mouse click? No, but is there any reason it can't be running the same set of code after that visual aspect occurs?
No. Selecting the autofold option does not make the UI highlight the fold button and do an autoclick for the user. The action to fold because a user selects the autofold is all done in the program behind the UI, there's no need to manipulate the screen.
I am not saying I believe for a second that there is something like this going on, but all programs have bugs, which is why you will be asked to upgrade the software periodically when you log in to the site. All I'm saying is it could be possible for an error to exist in the code referenced by one of the buttons on the UI and with sofisticated random number generators in place that operate on a very large set of numbers, it is possible that only a small subset of these values will trigger the error.
RNG has no business in the UI. You're grasping here if you think some random # is generated which forces a random piece of code to be executed. RNG is used on the server for card shuffling, dealing, seat placement, etc.
I won't argue that software has bugs. But this supposed bug is what we're talking about specifically. This type of bug would cause a HUGE user backlash if it were real. Do a search on the web and show me how many reports of such a bug have been reported by users. FTP deals alot of hands each day, I can assure you that such a bug would occur enough that people would notice. How many millions of hands do you think FTP deals in a month? Wouldn't it be reasonable that this would happen to more than a few users?
Comments
1. To claim that FTP support doesn't "care" is a bit dramatic. I would like you to even come up with possible plan of resolution. I write software for a living. I'm sorry but programs don't just click on the buttons by accident. Do you think for a second your wife/gf would fall for this excuse if she found a delivery of pr0n delivered to your house one day? "Honey, I swear I didn't do it...the computer must have clicked on those sites and ordered all that stuff!!!!"
2. You know what a Random Number Generator is right? The community cards in that hand may not be the exact same if the Q8 guy folded. Face it, you were DOMINATED by a legit hand. Without the Q8 person in the hand, you were looking for a 3 outer to win. You play poker, I'm sure you know what the odds of hitting your 3 outer are.
FTP support is eons behind PS in terms of service but in all honesty, there's nothing they can do here. The claims of a misclick are outlandish. Would you have them bring everyone back to the table and replay the hand without the Q8 caller? When you said to pay attention to the chat, I was expecting some type of collusion chatting between players on whether to call you or not.
1- I can almost assure you it was a human error, even if your opponent claims not.
2- Full Tilt really can't do anything about a situation like this so even though thier response may sound uncaring, I think it is justified.
However, in regards to Full Tilt I have the opinion they care the least about security and disclosure as opposed to the other major websites. My opinion here is based on these facts:
They allow any 3rd party cheating software/data mining to be used on their games. There are no restrictions or policies on this and my inquiries to them as such were responded to in a completely deliberate manner.
The site does not have a 3rd party audit system for fair hand distribution. Again my requests for such information from them were at the very least, "standoffish".
It is one of the easiest sites to set up multiple accounts. This sets up the potential for players with larger bankrolls to have multiple identities, and the rounders use every advantage they can.
I do play at Full Tilt, but I am much more secure in my mind that the fair play is unmatched at Poker Stars. This is just my opinion.
in a cash game
i click fold
but my money goes all-in.
i remember that day, fulltilt has system problem, i was unable to login that after that incident.
so software does do glitch, but 1/60000 is acceptable risk.
i didn't get a refund and no, i didn't suck out too.
at least with all the suckout at fulltilt, you can be assure that there is no superaccount ^^
I know that this is a true problem, because it did happen to me before too. I did not click call, but I called. Once again, it was a limit game, so it was not a big deal. This put me out of a tournament that I was doing very well in. I don't know whether the same cards would have come if the Q8 didn't call, but I think that I left a tournament without a fair dismount.
__________________________
My 2 cents!
http://www.winatpokernow.com
This email was forwarded to BBBobb and I was (still am) hoping he makes some sense out if it and posts it here.
The only good thing I was able to get out of the response is that they are looking into a 3rd party audit.....stay tuned.
As a fellow software developer I'm sure you can appreciate the concept of 'bugs' in software. As updates are rolled out by the various poker clients (and they are updated quite frequently), strange untested-for cases do emerge. I can of course assume that you write only bug-free software and have never had an unintended side effect in any of the projects you have written if this concept seems unfamiliar to you.
For the record, I play on Jungle Poker and there are bugs in that software which include rare cases where you are auto-folded even after you come back from being away and focus changes that occur in the middle of typing in the chat window.
Regardless of your professional background, these poker sites are in the SERVICE industry, they are hoping they put up enough money, attract enough pros to play with the shmoes to entice people to deposit, play, lose, and reload as needed to keep their doors open and turn a profit. The most important part of this process is the customer service portion. Casinos for the most part do this right (free drinks to the table, comped meals etc) and it's not unfair or unreasonable to expect online poker site customer support people to be fluent in the language they are conversing with patrons in (within reason) and be able to provide real, intelligent conversation about a patrons concern. This is a MAJOR flaw of online sites right now, and one that they should be looking at improving as the poker boom wanes and customers stop flocking to their site.
Please don't patronize me. Seeing as you are a developer yourself, did you even bother to think of what is involved to randomly click a button itself before you tried to disparage me? You have to explicitly send an event to the button for it to click. No where in FTP's interface is there any similar behaviour where a button is auto clicked for the user. So to think that they'd put that code in there (when there is no functional requirement) AND accidently invoke on a random basis is preposterous.
Of course I understand that most (if not all) software has bugs. But the problem being discussed is like claiming that your car was sitting in the driveway and the ignition started all by itself. The excuse you provide with Jungle Poker is akin to switching off the air conditioner but it stays on because the switch is faulty. Big big difference. I dont even have to see Jungle Poker or look at the code to give you a good idea of what those bugs are and where in their program logic it's happening. It should be obvious to a developer such as yourself. But random button clicks in this context is a bit of a stretch. Where I can imagine buttons clicking themselves would be testing application software as that type of behaviour is required, the logic of when to click it may be faulty but at least that event is expected.
Problem with alot of poker client interfaces is the UI. Alot of sites seem to think it's a good idea to provide a preaction checkbox to the user, and then automatically change that checkbox to a button as action gets to you. That is poor interface design as I can imagine people go to check the fold box and then just before they check it, the screen changes and the checkboxes are replaced with buttons and they may accidently click on the Call. If you ask me, I think this is more than likely the cause of the problem. Preaction check boxes should be available but in a distinct location on the screen.
We're not talking about typical bugs. You're talking about uninitiated mouse click events or buttons just clicking by themself. I have never seen any program in all my years of computing, just randomly do mouse clicks (unless you intentionally write one). Buttons that dont do anything when click, I've seen. But never ever have I seen the mouse simply start clicking away or buttons in a program start clicking themselves.
Anyways, for best customer service, site availability, etc. Poker Stars is #1 by far. However, they don't provide rakeback so pick your poison.
If you sign up through http://www.winatpokernow.com/ you can also get a free 500 piece set of poker chips as well as... look for the website of the day special...
Who said the button had to be clicked? If there is an error in the programming that causes the code which is triggered by the user actually clicking the button to run at an instance when it should not, that can cause the same result. When you check the auto-fold button and the action gets to you, do you think the program will act like you clicked the fold button? Does anybody ever see the fold button being highlighted and then depressing as you would with the mouse click? No, but is there any reason it can't be running the same set of code after that visual aspect occurs?
I am not saying I believe for a second that there is something like this going on, but all programs have bugs, which is why you will be asked to upgrade the software periodically when you log in to the site. All I'm saying is it could be possible for an error to exist in the code referenced by one of the buttons on the UI and with sofisticated random number generators in place that operate on a very large set of numbers, it is possible that only a small subset of these values will trigger the error.
As far as the idea that the auto-fold check box will turn into a call button or something like that, are there actually sites out there where the fold/call/raise buttons don't line up with the auto-action buttons of the same intent? I can see going to check "Call xxx" and having the person on your right raise and as you go to click it changes to a call of some larger bet, but any reasonable UI has these buttons lining up. They change the order of the buttons from site to site, but I can't see a site designing a UI where you have the fold checkbox being in the same place where a raise button would occur.
No. The end result is same but the program logic isn't. When the auto fold is checked, the program simply checks the status of the autofold variable and performs the fold action. When you click a button, an event is triggered and the event hook most likel calls the same code that performs a fold action. I'm not sure where you're going with this. The OP didn't say the auto fold option was checked, he claimed that he didn't press anything and it simply called for him.
No. Selecting the autofold option does not make the UI highlight the fold button and do an autoclick for the user. The action to fold because a user selects the autofold is all done in the program behind the UI, there's no need to manipulate the screen.
RNG has no business in the UI. You're grasping here if you think some random # is generated which forces a random piece of code to be executed. RNG is used on the server for card shuffling, dealing, seat placement, etc.
I won't argue that software has bugs. But this supposed bug is what we're talking about specifically. This type of bug would cause a HUGE user backlash if it were real. Do a search on the web and show me how many reports of such a bug have been reported by users. FTP deals alot of hands each day, I can assure you that such a bug would occur enough that people would notice. How many millions of hands do you think FTP deals in a month? Wouldn't it be reasonable that this would happen to more than a few users?