First off thanks to all for the feedback and to those that understand my frustration. My point of bringing this to the forum was that I was absolutely unsatisfied with the way in which things played out that day, the dealer, floor and pitboss ALL absolutely stated that I and other players were incorrect and that the penalized stack AREN'T supposed to be dealt cards which in fact and ONLY after I pressed the issue was found to be wrong. Are other decisions being made with incorrect info? That I don't know but I will tell you this, I have spent a hell of alot of money playing these satellites and I didn't enjoy being told flat out I was wrong and even after the call was made to Jason and your employees were told they were wrong I didn't so much as get a "Sorry we screwed up" apology or anything. It comes down to accountablity and there seemed to be none that day, as Riverratjosh stated sometimes you need to take a step back and look at the customer service side of things, I may be just 1 player but things steamroll at times. Take care of your customers when someone screws up. By no means am I asking for a voucher in case it comes off that way, but putting the player (customer) second is a bad way of doing business.
Not sure if the poker room has regular meetings with staff and dealers but issues like this should be brought to the forefront when and if you do so that one singular unique set of rules that ALL EMPLOYEES understand are in place.
If that was the case that day I wouldn't have had a problem with it, but having rules that are clouded at best will only infuriate the players more. CLARITY.... an example of this occurred yesterday although outside of the poker relm. I placed a wager on the METS 1st 5 Innings. The game was called with the Mets batting in the bottom of the 5th with 1 out due to rain, and the official score was listed as 5-0. The sportsbook cancelled and refunded my wager and when I checked their rules it stated "ALL 5 INNING WAGERS MUST GO A FULL 5 INNINGS OR THEY WILL BE CANCELLED AND REFUNDED" now there was no way I could lose that wager once the Nationals had completed their 5 innings but the rules were cleared stated. Was I pissed? Absolutely... but it was with the weather and my bad luck and not the sportsbook because the RULES were in place and understood.
Put as simply as possible:
Do you believe that a hand that consists of only ONE player entering the pot is sufficient enough investment/action/play/involvement to NOT declare it dead?
Do you believe that a hand that consists of TWO or more players entering the pot is sufficient enough play/investment/action/involvement to NOT declare it dead?
Regardless of how clearly written this rule may be, or how clearly explained it may have been previously on this forum, as a poker player myself, I can clearly see the difference between these two situations. And I would agree with the first being declared dead and void and the 2nd being allowed to continue. I know many of the members on here will scoff, but I have tried to look at this objectively. And since I was present for either situation, I have looked at through the eyes of a player and as the staff of the room.
I don't get it. Having a dead hand delt (or not) is irrelevant to the outcome of the cards.
Panties seem bunched over nothing.
Unless Voodoo, you are saying that you noticed seat10 didn't get cards and open pushed because you thought you could angle-shoot your way out of a caller..
I don't get it. Having a dead hand delt (or not) is irrelevant to the outcome of the cards.
Panties seem bunched over nothing.
Unless Voodoo, you are saying that you noticed seat10 didn't get cards and open pushed because you thought you could angle-shoot your way out of a caller..
BBZ .. I have never "angle shot" when playing poker and wouldn't. My beef is with them telling the other player and then me that we are wrong and cards are not dealt to a penalized player and with the conversations afterwards. How the hand eventually played out does not factor in this.
Obv. my post was completely correct. 13cards you still don't understand the issue. Bla, bla, bla, cards being random and all that, it doesn't really matter what the result of the hand was and again Voodoo clearly doesn't need a new voucher.
The issue is, your dealers do not know how to deal. Your suits do not know how dealers should deal. Obv. that is why Voodoo is upset. He has seen it happen TWICE now at your casino. Obv. it is not a 'rare' occurance. It must happen all the time. That's pathetic, embarassing, and more than a little bit troubling that not only does this happen in a licensed casino, but that you just don't get that it is a problem. Do you permit your dealers to start the deal other than at the small blind? Do you allow your dealers to forget to rake the hand? Do your dealers permit players, to miss a big blind? Do you allow your dealers to deal without shuffling? Would a suit know if a dealer was making these mistakes? I certainly wonder.
The other question that you seem incapable of answering, actually you said you weren't going to answer, (probably because you don't know the answer) is the definition of action changing.
You quoted the rule that a check, call or fold is not action changing.
Scenario #1: posted blinds, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 raises and the hand is stopped.
You defined Hand 1 as having one action only. Ok fine by the rule you posted a fold is not action changing.
Scenario #2: posted blinds, UTG raises All-IN, UTG+1 calls, the dealing error is pointed out, the hand continues to completion.
You defined Hand 2 as having two actions because UTG+1 calls, now "entering" the pot. But the rule you quoted says a call is not action changing. In fact it is highlighted in bold above. Instead you use a word not found in the rule at all. You said "entered". Well, how can anyone understand and follow your rules, if you are making up your own rules?
Let's make up Scenario #3: posted blind, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.
If a player has not received cards, can a misdeal be declared after this point? Not according to the rule you posted, since a 'call' is not action changing. What your answer is, no-one on the board has a clue what you are going to say.
If you polled all your dealers and suits, would they all give the same answers as you? Highly unlikely.
Put as simply as possible:
Do you believe that a hand that consists of only ONE player entering the pot is sufficient enough investment/action/play/involvement to NOT declare it dead?
Do you believe that a hand that consists of TWO or more players entering the pot is sufficient enough play/investment/action/involvement to NOT declare it dead?
Regardless of how clearly written this rule may be, or how clearly explained it may have been previously on this forum, as a poker player myself, I can clearly see the difference between these two situations. And I would agree with the first being declared dead and void and the 2nd being allowed to continue. I know many of the members on here will scoff, but I have tried to look at this objectively. And since I was present for either situation, I have looked at through the eyes of a player and as the staff of the room.
TWO or more players entering the pot isn't at issue here. The issue is what fallsview put out before in other thread.
I repeat
It should have been caught sooner, it wasn't, so we turn to the rules of the Poker Tournament Directors Association which we follow, but can't officially say as much. Rule #30 (under Verbal Declaration) covers the definiton of "action". The rule states that a "check, call, or fold is not considered action changing". If you had raised before the Supervisor had stepped in, the hand would have played out as normal. Two decisions of "action" would validate the hand, one does not.
It's the changing definition that worries me. The call hasn't changed the action according to the previous ruling by fallsview. There wasn't two decisions of "action". Yes two players were in the pot but there wasn't two actions. Based on my understanding of that previous post the hand should be dead.
I had no problem with your initial ruling and the rational behind it. It would really blow for anyone but that's poker. But the second ruling seems to conflict with the rational for the first ruling. There wasn't two decisions of "action".
With all this being said, I've play tournaments at a number of casinos and home games and haven't run into such basic errors as who should get cards. There should be something that is done to educate all of those involved in these games so that this doesn't happen. This isn't a 2/5 limit game, this is for a 10K seat that every player has paid over $600 to play in. If these errors played out in front of the camera during a 10K buy in tourney, I could just image Mike Sexton's comments.
The main reason I don't play in Niagara falls is due to lack of respect shown to me by one of your dealers and floor personel (it was niagara not fallsview). I did intend to come down and play a satellite or two but I am rethinking that. Unfortunately I find the casino industry in Ontario believes they don't need players IMHO or they have enough players so pissing off a few doesn't matter.
Whether Voodoo should get comp'd another sat try, I don't know. But showing something towards him probably would have gone a long way. Here's two tickets to Roger Hodgeson and dinner on us the night of the show, we are really sorry at what happened probably would have been sufficient.
Prior to casinos when craps and blackjack and poker were around those operators knew how to make their customers feel like coming back. I would drive an hour to get into a blackjack game weekly. Rama is 45 minutes from me and I rarely get the urge to go up there just due to the overall attitude you get when playing or waiting to play.
Josh's posts on customer service are bang on in my opinion. I run my own company and HAVE to keep my customers happy.
I do appreciate the fact you guys are responding to concerns, that is the one upside to this whole thread. But I realize two people in the whole casino can't change a corporate attitude.
Scenario #1: posted blinds, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 raises and the hand is stopped.
You defined Hand 1 as having one action only. Ok fine by the rule you posted a fold is not action changing.
Scenario #2: posted blinds, UTG raises All-IN, UTG+1 calls, the dealing error is pointed out, the hand continues to completion.
You defined Hand 2 as having two actions because UTG+1 calls, now "entering" the pot. But the rule you quoted says a call is not action changing. In fact it is highlighted in bold above. Instead you use a word not found in the rule at all. You said "entered". Well, how can anyone understand and follow your rules, if you are making up your own rules?
Let's make up Scenario #3: posted blind, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.
If a player has not received cards, can a misdeal be declared after this point? Not according to the rule you posted, since a 'call' is not action changing. What your answer is, no-one on the board has a clue what you are going to say.
Moose is 100% correct. Either your definition of "action" is incorrect, or you're misinterpreting a rule by substituting "action-changing" for "action". Fix your rules so things aren't as clear as mud.
I'll throw out Scenario #4. Everyone limps, BB pushes, everyone calls. How many "actions"? One. Dealer forgot to deal in player X. Clearly nothing of consequence happened this hand, misdeal. Wow.
I don't get it. Having a dead hand delt (or not) is irrelevant to the outcome of the cards.
Panties seem bunched over nothing.
QFT
Voodoo is obv a stand-up guy. He is not shooting for a freeroll on the sat. (which would be ridiculous IMO) he just wants to vent and share some pretty important info with the forum. I appreciate him posting this so I know that if I play a sat. there I need to be vocal and protect my own interestes because the staff is on autopilot.
Who would blame the guy if he never played there again? Here is the problem. If he wants to sat into a WPT event close to home this is his only chance. Fallsview has a bit of a monopoly, he is dropping some coin there and the poker room staff is dropping the ball.
Fallsview poker room needs to have some meetings and training with the dealers and the floor.....like...yesterday, and tighten up their shit.
BBZ .. I have never "angle shot" when playing poker and wouldn't. My beef is with them telling the other player and then me that we are wrong and cards are not dealt to a penalized player and with the conversations afterwards. How the hand eventually played out does not factor in this.
Voodoo....
Again, I personally apoligize for the way you were treated during this satellite. I know first hand how horrible it is to 1)have the wrong information given to you and then 2)to be told YOU are wrong when you know you are right. Niagara Fallsview Casino Resort, its staff and management involved (excluding Jason), were entirely in the wrong. I am sorry. I would prefer to give this apoligy to you in person. Please PM me if you plan on visiting our room again to make arrangments.
Moose is 100% correct. Either your definition of "action" is incorrect, or you're misinterpreting a rule by substituting "action-changing" for "action". Fix your rules so things aren't as clear as mud.
I'll throw out Scenario #4. Everyone limps, BB pushes, everyone calls. How many "actions"? One. Dealer forgot to deal in player X. Clearly nothing of consequence happened this hand, misdeal. Wow.
Scenario #1: One player in the hand. Declare a misdeal.
Scenario #2: Two players in the hand. Allow the hand to continue.
Scenario #3: Two players in the hand. Allow the hand to continue.
Scenario #4: Ten players in the hand. Allow the hand to continue.
Does anyone disagree with these?
There does not have to be (and indeed there is not!!) a written rule for every specific situation (thousands of similar dealer errors/irregularities/"common" rules have been debated ad nauseum on this forum)... you can use common sense and make decisions based on the best interest of the game. There are many, many VERY SPECIFIC scenarios that arise each and every day in our room and I am sure many others. My co-workers and I spend hours descibing unique and peculiar situations and deciding what (if any!!) rule best covers how to handle it.
**This post in no way is meant to account for the specific situations with Voodoo but merely to respond to the scenarios presented to me.***
Ya because obv. you are not applying the rule you posted at all. If you have your own rule so be it. Post it. Here and at the casino so everyone knows what the rules are.
Scenario #1: One player in the hand. Declare a misdeal.
Scenario #2: Two players in the hand. Allow the hand to continue.
Scenario #3: Two players in the hand. Allow the hand to continue.
Scenario #4: Ten players in the hand. Allow the hand to continue.
Does anyone disagree with these?
Please post your actual rules as opposed to your interpretations of such. No paraphasing please.
I'm assuming "in the hand" corresponds to "action has occurred".
In short post the EXACT details of what constitutes "action". Secondly post the details of when and how a dealer can declare a misdeal. There are 2 issues:
1) In general (at least from my understanding), you've been preaching that a check, call or fold is NOT "action" (which I believe is incorrect). Please post said rule.
2) Secondly, you've stated that more than one "action" must have occured before a dealer cannot declare a misdeal. (FWIW I believe this is also wrong, but if published in your rules I'm willing to accept it as such). Please post said rule.
The first problem is the major issue, since according to your definition of "action", only one "action" has occurred in all of the mentioned scenarios (ie. one raise). The fact that you seem to think that calling is "sometimes" an action further compounds (and illustrates) that your interpretation of "action" is wrong.
But this is thread is WAY to deep in hearsay. Please post the written rules.
OK, time for my two cents. Then let's please end the bickering and get some good poker talk going in another thread.
All of us who've been around poker for a while know that the dealer made a mistake, yet the hand was continued as it should have been. So, the end result was correct. The problem is that none of the staff thought there was a problem (not dealing cards to an absent player). We all agree that the staff needs some training/retraining, and that the casino needs to increase its customer service. Having said this, it's not the fault of the two rep's who post here, since they weren't on the floor at the time. Secondly, as poker players we should know that we are basically second class citizens at casinos, and act accordingly (ie. bring a lunch, don't expect a free one!). I only hope that as a result of this thread, the two reps can call a meeting with their superiors and address the very poor service offered in their room, and we as patrons will benefit in the future.
Now, here is my point about service. It dovetails nicely with the other thread(s) about rake v. session fee. [Aside: I vote rake. As someone who wants to measure hourly rates of return, being $10-12 down every hour is a large cost of doing business. Imagine if you went to work and were told you had to pay an hourly rate just for sitting at your desk (apart from the fact that you might not get a paycheck at all)! End of rant.]
I was at Fallsview about 2-3 months ago, mid-afternoon, not very busy yet. My name was on the list(s), and when they were starting up a new 1-2 table I took a seat. By the time everyone was seated and had chips, it was ten mintues to the hour - call it 3:50. The dealer calls for a full session fee for only ten minutes of play, and some of us say no (including two regulars at the table). We say "call the floor over". No rudeness, no tempers, we just smile and say "that's kind of unfair don't you think? Let's get a ranking officer's opinion." So, a supervisor is flagged, he says we have to pay full fare, but he'll "give us five extra minutes at the top of the hour". Obviously this is meaningless, because we lose that five minutes at the bottom of the hour! Ie. we don't pay until 4:05, but of course we still have to pay at 4:30, thus getting only 25 min. instead of 30 for our money. One of the regulars smiles and says "guys, if that's the way they're going to be, let's just pay our money and be done with it". In other words, let's just smile as we take it up the a**, because we can't do anything about it anyways. The entire table agrees and we throw in our money. As the first hand is going on (I fold pre-flop), I flag down one of the supervisors that I recognize (I don't know his title). I know him as a fair and competent guy. I tell him that we were forced to pay full session for ten minutes, "kind of unfair, don't you think? Can't you just give us those ten minutes on the house?" Once you factor in dealer changes, deck changes, etc, it's really only 7 min of free time anyways. He agrees, goes to the front desk to confer with someone, comes back and tells us the money we paid will count towards the next half-hour session. That is what I call good service. HOWEVER, within 30 seconds a suit comes over and says we have to pay again. This guy looks like he's a big boss, perhaps new to the poker pit, but he's definitely a higher-up, a manager-level type guy. There was no smile, no apology, no nothing. He gave us a very "shut up and do as you're told" statement, and then he walked away. No discussion or feedback allowed. I haven't felt like a piece of dirt many times, but this was one of them. It's still early in the day, there is no list of customers waiting for our seats, and since we just started playing, he didn't exactly give us a great first impression. Sort of like having a crappy appetizer and then being told we can't leave until after the main course, which looks like it was caught in the basement and then served to us raw. I almost got up and left then and there to write a complaint letter. Of course since I'm a poker player and not a letter writer...
I'm not saying I want restitution. I am only writing this so that everyone (including the casino reps) are aware of how poker players are disrespected at this casino, and hopefully some change for the good can come of these past problems. At the very least, treat us like other casino patrons - smile and put your arm around us, as your other arm reaches for our wallets. Let us enjoy our "misfortunes" - we are paying for them, after all.
Everyone, have a good remainder of the summer, and I'll see you around the felt.
Heading up on Friday for a couple of the 640's .. hopefully things go smoothly and I get alittle lucky.
On a side note.. I went up Tuesday and played a 3 of the 90's, I won the first after getting down to 125 in chips, then finished 2nd and 3rd in the other 2. The floorperson (Kurt) ran them excellent and has the right personality and attitude for these tournies. Thumbs up....
Now another side note.. this is during the 2nd 90 I played. Here is the scenerio.. you have about 1400 in chips... 8 players still... first guy goes ALLIN for 800 (blinds are 100/200) second person reraises allin for 925 and third person calls his remaining 900 and its folded to you with JJ. What do you do?
ME? ... Its a 90 dollar sit and go.. although in a regular tournament I probably just muck, here I decide even if I am behind I might get lucky so I call and it turns out they had 9 10 diamonds, pocket 3's and Pocket 8's respectively. My jacks held up.
Now another side note.. this is during the 2nd 90 I played. Here is the scenerio.. you have about 1400 in chips... 8 players still... first guy goes ALLIN for 800 (blinds are 100/200) second person reraises allin for 925 and third person calls his remaining 900 and its folded to you with JJ. What do you do?
ME? ... Its a 90 dollar sit and go.. although in a regular tournament I probably just muck, here I decide even if I am behind I might get lucky so I call and it turns out they had 9 10 diamonds, pocket 3's and Pocket 8's respectively. My jacks held up.
What would you guys have done? Thoughts?
I think I would call, because only first pays there is no reason for you to sit back here. Only hands that beat you are Aces, Kings and Queens. I don't think you need to worry about A-K or A-Q because chances are some of these guys have some of them in some kind of combination. (A-10, A-8 suited, etc.) Plus if you call and win chances are pretty good you are going to take it down. If call and lose then you still have some chips. No call and some one else wins and then you have to battle a monster stack with less then 10x the BB (a M of approx 4.5)
This is a bit off topic but I thought I"d post it here. Obviously Niagara isn't the only casino with newb's looking after the poker room. This happened at Rama during a 2/5 NL game. Pre flop raise to $20 UTG with 2 callers. Flop comes down and my buddy called the raise from the BB and hit the nut straight, I believe he had 4 6 suited. UTG pushes for $160 after the BB checks. Middle position announces all in. My buddy licking his lips announces call (he had them both covered and middle position has about $740 in front of him. MP guy now goes I only covered his all in I"m not all in. My buddy says no you said "all in" that means you pushed all your chips in. Suit comes over and announces MP only has to call. MY buddy goes nuts saying he said the only 2 words that matter "all in" . The suit says it's an honest mistake he made he only has to call the $160. He had top set and ended up folding after my buddy said F U and pushed his chips in on the turn. They wouldn't let him re raise since he announced call. His straight would have held up and taken down a huge pot. During his next trip this week he was stopped by the regular bosses there, given an apology over what happened and comped 4 dinners and a show for the poor judgement shown during that hand. He is a regular player at Rama.
This is a bit off topic but I thought I"d post it here. Obviously Niagara isn't the only casino with newb's looking after the poker room. This happened at Rama during a 2/5 NL game. Pre flop raise to $20 UTG with 2 callers. Flop comes down and my buddy called the raise from the BB and hit the nut straight, I believe he had 4 6 suited. UTG pushes for $160 after the BB checks. Middle position announces all in. My buddy licking his lips announces call (he had them both covered and middle position has about $740 in front of him. MP guy now goes I only covered his all in I"m not all in. My buddy says no you said "all in" that means you pushed all your chips in. Suit comes over and announces MP only has to call. MY buddy goes nuts saying he said the only 2 words that matter "all in" . The suit says it's an honest mistake he made he only has to call the $160. He had top set and ended up folding after my buddy said F U and pushed his chips in on the turn. They wouldn't let him re raise since he announced call. His straight would have held up and taken down a huge pot. During his next trip this week he was stopped by the regular bosses there, given an apology over what happened and comped 4 dinners and a show for the poor judgement shown during that hand. He is a regular player at Rama.
I'm shocked that happened at Rama. I've never seen anything like that at Rama. IMO, the dealers there are usually much better than other Ont casinos. A few weeks ago I was even talking about it at my table about how Rama's dealers are better than other Ont casinos.
fallsview casino is very nice, but the poker room is next to the bar with live band & it is way too loud.The games are great but the room is not run as well as it should be
Comments
Not sure if the poker room has regular meetings with staff and dealers but issues like this should be brought to the forefront when and if you do so that one singular unique set of rules that ALL EMPLOYEES understand are in place.
If that was the case that day I wouldn't have had a problem with it, but having rules that are clouded at best will only infuriate the players more. CLARITY.... an example of this occurred yesterday although outside of the poker relm. I placed a wager on the METS 1st 5 Innings. The game was called with the Mets batting in the bottom of the 5th with 1 out due to rain, and the official score was listed as 5-0. The sportsbook cancelled and refunded my wager and when I checked their rules it stated "ALL 5 INNING WAGERS MUST GO A FULL 5 INNINGS OR THEY WILL BE CANCELLED AND REFUNDED" now there was no way I could lose that wager once the Nationals had completed their 5 innings but the rules were cleared stated. Was I pissed? Absolutely... but it was with the weather and my bad luck and not the sportsbook because the RULES were in place and understood.
Panties seem bunched over nothing.
Unless Voodoo, you are saying that you noticed seat10 didn't get cards and open pushed because you thought you could angle-shoot your way out of a caller..
BBZ .. I have never "angle shot" when playing poker and wouldn't. My beef is with them telling the other player and then me that we are wrong and cards are not dealt to a penalized player and with the conversations afterwards. How the hand eventually played out does not factor in this.
The issue is, your dealers do not know how to deal. Your suits do not know how dealers should deal. Obv. that is why Voodoo is upset. He has seen it happen TWICE now at your casino. Obv. it is not a 'rare' occurance. It must happen all the time. That's pathetic, embarassing, and more than a little bit troubling that not only does this happen in a licensed casino, but that you just don't get that it is a problem. Do you permit your dealers to start the deal other than at the small blind? Do you allow your dealers to forget to rake the hand? Do your dealers permit players, to miss a big blind? Do you allow your dealers to deal without shuffling? Would a suit know if a dealer was making these mistakes? I certainly wonder.
The other question that you seem incapable of answering, actually you said you weren't going to answer, (probably because you don't know the answer) is the definition of action changing.
You quoted the rule that a check, call or fold is not action changing.
Scenario #1: posted blinds, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 raises and the hand is stopped.
You defined Hand 1 as having one action only. Ok fine by the rule you posted a fold is not action changing.
Scenario #2: posted blinds, UTG raises All-IN, UTG+1 calls, the dealing error is pointed out, the hand continues to completion.
You defined Hand 2 as having two actions because UTG+1 calls, now "entering" the pot. But the rule you quoted says a call is not action changing. In fact it is highlighted in bold above. Instead you use a word not found in the rule at all. You said "entered". Well, how can anyone understand and follow your rules, if you are making up your own rules?
Let's make up Scenario #3: posted blind, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.
If a player has not received cards, can a misdeal be declared after this point? Not according to the rule you posted, since a 'call' is not action changing. What your answer is, no-one on the board has a clue what you are going to say.
If you polled all your dealers and suits, would they all give the same answers as you? Highly unlikely.
TWO or more players entering the pot isn't at issue here. The issue is what fallsview put out before in other thread.
I repeat
It should have been caught sooner, it wasn't, so we turn to the rules of the Poker Tournament Directors Association which we follow, but can't officially say as much. Rule #30 (under Verbal Declaration) covers the definiton of "action". The rule states that a "check, call, or fold is not considered action changing". If you had raised before the Supervisor had stepped in, the hand would have played out as normal. Two decisions of "action" would validate the hand, one does not.
It's the changing definition that worries me. The call hasn't changed the action according to the previous ruling by fallsview. There wasn't two decisions of "action". Yes two players were in the pot but there wasn't two actions. Based on my understanding of that previous post the hand should be dead.
I had no problem with your initial ruling and the rational behind it. It would really blow for anyone but that's poker. But the second ruling seems to conflict with the rational for the first ruling. There wasn't two decisions of "action".
With all this being said, I've play tournaments at a number of casinos and home games and haven't run into such basic errors as who should get cards. There should be something that is done to educate all of those involved in these games so that this doesn't happen. This isn't a 2/5 limit game, this is for a 10K seat that every player has paid over $600 to play in. If these errors played out in front of the camera during a 10K buy in tourney, I could just image Mike Sexton's comments.
The main reason I don't play in Niagara falls is due to lack of respect shown to me by one of your dealers and floor personel (it was niagara not fallsview). I did intend to come down and play a satellite or two but I am rethinking that. Unfortunately I find the casino industry in Ontario believes they don't need players IMHO or they have enough players so pissing off a few doesn't matter.
Whether Voodoo should get comp'd another sat try, I don't know. But showing something towards him probably would have gone a long way. Here's two tickets to Roger Hodgeson and dinner on us the night of the show, we are really sorry at what happened probably would have been sufficient.
Prior to casinos when craps and blackjack and poker were around those operators knew how to make their customers feel like coming back. I would drive an hour to get into a blackjack game weekly. Rama is 45 minutes from me and I rarely get the urge to go up there just due to the overall attitude you get when playing or waiting to play.
Josh's posts on customer service are bang on in my opinion. I run my own company and HAVE to keep my customers happy.
I do appreciate the fact you guys are responding to concerns, that is the one upside to this whole thread. But I realize two people in the whole casino can't change a corporate attitude.
Moose is 100% correct. Either your definition of "action" is incorrect, or you're misinterpreting a rule by substituting "action-changing" for "action". Fix your rules so things aren't as clear as mud.
I'll throw out Scenario #4. Everyone limps, BB pushes, everyone calls. How many "actions"? One. Dealer forgot to deal in player X. Clearly nothing of consequence happened this hand, misdeal. Wow.
QFT
Voodoo is obv a stand-up guy. He is not shooting for a freeroll on the sat. (which would be ridiculous IMO) he just wants to vent and share some pretty important info with the forum. I appreciate him posting this so I know that if I play a sat. there I need to be vocal and protect my own interestes because the staff is on autopilot.
Who would blame the guy if he never played there again? Here is the problem. If he wants to sat into a WPT event close to home this is his only chance. Fallsview has a bit of a monopoly, he is dropping some coin there and the poker room staff is dropping the ball.
Fallsview poker room needs to have some meetings and training with the dealers and the floor.....like...yesterday, and tighten up their shit.
Voodoo....
Again, I personally apoligize for the way you were treated during this satellite. I know first hand how horrible it is to 1)have the wrong information given to you and then 2)to be told YOU are wrong when you know you are right. Niagara Fallsview Casino Resort, its staff and management involved (excluding Jason), were entirely in the wrong. I am sorry. I would prefer to give this apoligy to you in person. Please PM me if you plan on visiting our room again to make arrangments.
Scenario #1: One player in the hand. Declare a misdeal.
Scenario #2: Two players in the hand. Allow the hand to continue.
Scenario #3: Two players in the hand. Allow the hand to continue.
Scenario #4: Ten players in the hand. Allow the hand to continue.
Does anyone disagree with these?
There does not have to be (and indeed there is not!!) a written rule for every specific situation (thousands of similar dealer errors/irregularities/"common" rules have been debated ad nauseum on this forum)... you can use common sense and make decisions based on the best interest of the game. There are many, many VERY SPECIFIC scenarios that arise each and every day in our room and I am sure many others. My co-workers and I spend hours descibing unique and peculiar situations and deciding what (if any!!) rule best covers how to handle it.
**This post in no way is meant to account for the specific situations with Voodoo but merely to respond to the scenarios presented to me.***
Please post your actual rules as opposed to your interpretations of such. No paraphasing please.
I'm assuming "in the hand" corresponds to "action has occurred".
In short post the EXACT details of what constitutes "action". Secondly post the details of when and how a dealer can declare a misdeal. There are 2 issues:
1) In general (at least from my understanding), you've been preaching that a check, call or fold is NOT "action" (which I believe is incorrect). Please post said rule.
2) Secondly, you've stated that more than one "action" must have occured before a dealer cannot declare a misdeal. (FWIW I believe this is also wrong, but if published in your rules I'm willing to accept it as such). Please post said rule.
The first problem is the major issue, since according to your definition of "action", only one "action" has occurred in all of the mentioned scenarios (ie. one raise). The fact that you seem to think that calling is "sometimes" an action further compounds (and illustrates) that your interpretation of "action" is wrong.
But this is thread is WAY to deep in hearsay. Please post the written rules.
All of us who've been around poker for a while know that the dealer made a mistake, yet the hand was continued as it should have been. So, the end result was correct. The problem is that none of the staff thought there was a problem (not dealing cards to an absent player). We all agree that the staff needs some training/retraining, and that the casino needs to increase its customer service. Having said this, it's not the fault of the two rep's who post here, since they weren't on the floor at the time. Secondly, as poker players we should know that we are basically second class citizens at casinos, and act accordingly (ie. bring a lunch, don't expect a free one!). I only hope that as a result of this thread, the two reps can call a meeting with their superiors and address the very poor service offered in their room, and we as patrons will benefit in the future.
Now, here is my point about service. It dovetails nicely with the other thread(s) about rake v. session fee. [Aside: I vote rake. As someone who wants to measure hourly rates of return, being $10-12 down every hour is a large cost of doing business. Imagine if you went to work and were told you had to pay an hourly rate just for sitting at your desk (apart from the fact that you might not get a paycheck at all)! End of rant.]
I was at Fallsview about 2-3 months ago, mid-afternoon, not very busy yet. My name was on the list(s), and when they were starting up a new 1-2 table I took a seat. By the time everyone was seated and had chips, it was ten mintues to the hour - call it 3:50. The dealer calls for a full session fee for only ten minutes of play, and some of us say no (including two regulars at the table). We say "call the floor over". No rudeness, no tempers, we just smile and say "that's kind of unfair don't you think? Let's get a ranking officer's opinion." So, a supervisor is flagged, he says we have to pay full fare, but he'll "give us five extra minutes at the top of the hour". Obviously this is meaningless, because we lose that five minutes at the bottom of the hour! Ie. we don't pay until 4:05, but of course we still have to pay at 4:30, thus getting only 25 min. instead of 30 for our money. One of the regulars smiles and says "guys, if that's the way they're going to be, let's just pay our money and be done with it". In other words, let's just smile as we take it up the a**, because we can't do anything about it anyways. The entire table agrees and we throw in our money. As the first hand is going on (I fold pre-flop), I flag down one of the supervisors that I recognize (I don't know his title). I know him as a fair and competent guy. I tell him that we were forced to pay full session for ten minutes, "kind of unfair, don't you think? Can't you just give us those ten minutes on the house?" Once you factor in dealer changes, deck changes, etc, it's really only 7 min of free time anyways. He agrees, goes to the front desk to confer with someone, comes back and tells us the money we paid will count towards the next half-hour session. That is what I call good service.
HOWEVER, within 30 seconds a suit comes over and says we have to pay again. This guy looks like he's a big boss, perhaps new to the poker pit, but he's definitely a higher-up, a manager-level type guy. There was no smile, no apology, no nothing. He gave us a very "shut up and do as you're told" statement, and then he walked away. No discussion or feedback allowed. I haven't felt like a piece of dirt many times, but this was one of them. It's still early in the day, there is no list of customers waiting for our seats, and since we just started playing, he didn't exactly give us a great first impression. Sort of like having a crappy appetizer and then being told we can't leave until after the main course, which looks like it was caught in the basement and then served to us raw. I almost got up and left then and there to write a complaint letter. Of course since I'm a poker player and not a letter writer...
I'm not saying I want restitution. I am only writing this so that everyone (including the casino reps) are aware of how poker players are disrespected at this casino, and hopefully some change for the good can come of these past problems. At the very least, treat us like other casino patrons - smile and put your arm around us, as your other arm reaches for our wallets. Let us enjoy our "misfortunes" - we are paying for them, after all.
Everyone, have a good remainder of the summer, and I'll see you around the felt.
-Matt
On a side note.. I went up Tuesday and played a 3 of the 90's, I won the first after getting down to 125 in chips, then finished 2nd and 3rd in the other 2. The floorperson (Kurt) ran them excellent and has the right personality and attitude for these tournies. Thumbs up....
Yeah much better experience...
Now another side note.. this is during the 2nd 90 I played. Here is the scenerio.. you have about 1400 in chips... 8 players still... first guy goes ALLIN for 800 (blinds are 100/200) second person reraises allin for 925 and third person calls his remaining 900 and its folded to you with JJ. What do you do?
ME? ... Its a 90 dollar sit and go.. although in a regular tournament I probably just muck, here I decide even if I am behind I might get lucky so I call and it turns out they had 9 10 diamonds, pocket 3's and Pocket 8's respectively. My jacks held up.
What would you guys have done? Thoughts?
I don't want replay token. I want 1st.
More than likely the other players have hands that can get in the way of each other (you know I have an Ace...ALL IN).
Nice to see you were pair-over-pair-over-pair....
I think I would call, because only first pays there is no reason for you to sit back here.
Only hands that beat you are Aces, Kings and Queens.
I don't think you need to worry about A-K or A-Q because chances are some of these guys have some of them in some kind of combination. (A-10, A-8 suited, etc.)
Plus if you call and win chances are pretty good you are going to take it down. If call and lose then you still have some chips.
No call and some one else wins and then you have to battle a monster stack with less then 10x the BB (a M of approx 4.5)
I'm in there like a fat kid on the ham sandwhich. I get my chips in the middle during a 90
I'm shocked that happened at Rama. I've never seen anything like that at Rama. IMO, the dealers there are usually much better than other Ont casinos. A few weeks ago I was even talking about it at my table about how Rama's dealers are better than other Ont casinos.