Fallsview or 13Cards... Why can't we get these Rules straight.
Guys.. I have to tell you I left Fallsview with an extremely bitter feeling today.
I drove up to play the $640 satellite (which I bought into, not a voucher) and when we got to the final table and were 8 handed the following situation came up. The player in seat 10 was just given a penalty for betting out of turn and was sitting out, I decided to open push under the gun and was called by the next player, now with action moving to the next guy.. someone at the table says "Hey dealer you forgot to deal in the penalized player" so the dealer (Luch) says NO he doesn't get cards, so that player asks for the floor and Rick (O'bannon I believe) states that the dealer is correct. Now at this piont I chime in and tell them that the opposite ruling was used against be a few weeks back http://www.pokerforum.ca/showthread.php?t=12955 and I was told I was wrong so they let the hand play out, so of course I bust out and head over to the front poker desk and talk to another supervisor as I am pissed that you guys can't get a ruling correct and after getting the floor to call Jason your guys are told that the penalized player should ALWAYS get cards.
Much like you stated I wouldn't have gotten those Kings if the cards hand been dealt properly the same can be said about tonight, I wouldn't have been dealt the hand I was dealt if the cards had been properly dealt and then to have to argue my point and told I am wrong by both the dealer and floor only to be proven right by Jason afterwards is frustrating as hell. If I am forking over 640 to you guys to play a tournament the least you could do is have one set of rules.
Given the experience I had tonight its going to make it difficult to want to play any of these satellites again, I usually roll with the punches but this was brutal tonight.
I drove up to play the $640 satellite (which I bought into, not a voucher) and when we got to the final table and were 8 handed the following situation came up. The player in seat 10 was just given a penalty for betting out of turn and was sitting out, I decided to open push under the gun and was called by the next player, now with action moving to the next guy.. someone at the table says "Hey dealer you forgot to deal in the penalized player" so the dealer (Luch) says NO he doesn't get cards, so that player asks for the floor and Rick (O'bannon I believe) states that the dealer is correct. Now at this piont I chime in and tell them that the opposite ruling was used against be a few weeks back http://www.pokerforum.ca/showthread.php?t=12955 and I was told I was wrong so they let the hand play out, so of course I bust out and head over to the front poker desk and talk to another supervisor as I am pissed that you guys can't get a ruling correct and after getting the floor to call Jason your guys are told that the penalized player should ALWAYS get cards.
Much like you stated I wouldn't have gotten those Kings if the cards hand been dealt properly the same can be said about tonight, I wouldn't have been dealt the hand I was dealt if the cards had been properly dealt and then to have to argue my point and told I am wrong by both the dealer and floor only to be proven right by Jason afterwards is frustrating as hell. If I am forking over 640 to you guys to play a tournament the least you could do is have one set of rules.
Given the experience I had tonight its going to make it difficult to want to play any of these satellites again, I usually roll with the punches but this was brutal tonight.
Comments
2. It is most unfortunate and distressing that when an issue was raised during your satellite, a quick, concise and ACCURATE response was not provided to you and the other players. You are indeed correct (as Jason pointed out) that ALL stacks should be dealt cards at all times, regardless of the player being present or not or being on a penalty or not. Again, I apoligize that the correct information was not provided to you quicker through the dealer, the floor supervisor or the pit manager. Be sure, steps have been taken to rectify this misinterpretation of the written rules.
HOWEVER....
3. As I was not present at the satellite you discuss, I am taking all of your information provided as is to be 100% accurate. In that case, THE HAND MUST CONTINUE. The situation differs from your original posting (http://www.pokerforum.ca/showthread.php?t=12955) and therefore requires a different ruling.
Let me try to explain:
Your first posting (involving the pocket kings), had only ONE player entering the pot before the hand was stopped by the supervisor. As Fallsview has replied on here, we believe that was the correct thing to do. In layman's terms, with only ONE person in the pot (we do not count the blinds as "acting" nor the two "folds"), we can stop the hand before "action" takes place.
In this thread, you open pushed under the gun and were called by the next player. Since we have TWO players in the pot, action has occured, and we rightfully let the hand play out. Absolutely, the dealer/supervisor/players should have noticed that the penalized player was not dealt in and raised the point BEFORE action took place. Since that did not happen, the hand must continue. As the events are laid out by you, and the fact that the penalized player was missed in the deal was not noticed until AFTER your push and the subsequent call, we cannot declare that round dead.
Although I am satisfied that the right ruling was made at the right time, it is obvious that the wrong information was used to make that ruling and the wrong information was being put forth by the dealer, the supervisor and the pit manager.
I sincerely hope you will give NFCR another chance, to prove that these kinds of situations are irregular and not the norm, and to give yourself another chance to win a voucher for the NAPC.
As a side note, Fallsview (the forum member) will likely not respond to this thread. He is currently unavailable for the next couple of weeks. Please feel free to direct any inquiries or comments to me and I will do my best to help.
Why would you when seneca is basically right across the street and the dealers are more professional, the poker room is private, and the structure is better.
Fallsview should have paid for a few of your entrys so you can see the difference bewtween tournaments at Seneca and tournaments at Fallsview.
Just my 2cents
Prophet 22
PS Do you have any Managment positions avaliable? Seriously, I can turn your poker room around! PM and I can send you my resume involving running poker tournaments.
If you were really serious about running a professional operation:
a) it never would have happened in the 1st place
b) it never would have happened in the 2nd place. What a joke.
c) ...are you kidding me? What serious player would actually go to Fallsview?
Sorry, but how can you justify this as the right decision based on Fallsviews previous comments?
He was VERY specific that calling is not action, and that 2 decisions of action are required. According to the rules explained by Fallsview, it appears the push is action 1, but a call is not action. If you said "sorry, we screwed up" it would make sense, but saying " I am satisfied that the right ruling was made at the right time" doesn't make sense. Bottom line, is a check action changing (making the previous ruling in the other thread wrong) or not (meaning this ruling is wrong). Please be consistent...
I'm aware who the floor in question is. This guy has been around since the early days of Casino Niagara. Pit supervisor in BJ,Roulette and everything else...but all of a sudden he's supposed to be a poker expert..I don't know.
You guys have a few good dealers who have been in the room for two years now. I'd rather see someone like Deb making the poker decisions than some suit from the blackjack tables.
All the floor staff should have to put their time in on the front lines, dealing and learning the ropes as far as i'm concerned.
If a dealer at Fallsview killed and then ate a puppy, this would be the Fallsview/13 cards reply:
**********************
We are aware of the unfortunate incident at the Fallsview poker room, where a puppy was killed and eaten by one of our dealers. We cannot condone this behaviour. We are all saddened by this terrible, terrible turn of events. As we understand it, the puppy had peed on the dealer at table four. While every effort was made to capture the puppy, it ran too fast. It was clearly going to pee on someone else. This is explictly contrary to Rule 7.4357. All hell was braking loose. So a decision was made to kill the puppy. Now, while we don't like dead puppies, once the puppy had, in fact, ceased to be, it would have been a shame not to eat it. Afterall, that would be wasteful, and puppy meat is good eats. It's brain food for the dealer. Besides, if the puppy's irresponsible owner hadn't let the puppy get into the pokerroom, the dealer would not have had to kill and eat it in the first place.
And you know what, it wasn't a very cute puppy anyway.
Everyone please come back to the Fallsview, this is a rare incident and only likely to occur 2-3x per day. We are taking steps to prevent this occuring more then 4x per day. The way we will do this, is ban puppies after the 3rd incident per day, that way we know it can not possibly happen 4x per day.
Yes we know that dealers at Seneca like puppies, know the puppy rule and provide free puppy chow but that is no reason to go there.
LMFAO! POTD!
Neither Fallsview nor I intend to take take part in such blatantly off-topic rants.
Seriously, that is the kind of response I expected. Aside from the puppy comment, there is nothing wrong with the things that are written in this thread. You would be better off saying “we have personnel who are learning on the fly and mistakes will be made and may wrongly determine the outcome of a hand and eventually winner. Both dealers and floor staff are inexperience and are gaining experience every day with every situation that comes up and we thank you for your patience.”
It doesn’t matter what the sport when humans are officiating mistakes will happen, period. Sometimes to the tune of getting referees being bought or fixing point spreads, umpires missing outs in the World Series even though the play is right in front of them, see Kelly Gruber and the non called triple play, players throwing games, tons of NCCA games and 1919 World series and some soccer example of a goalie being bought, and in poker teammates dumping chips to their friends.
If you aren’t willing to learn, then why should anyone put up with it?
Don’t come on here and be so condescending toward us, there are far too many players who know what they are talking about.
Prophet :2h :2s
Cameron
I honestly think that you, as well as many other people, misunderstand the WPT.
The WPT does not "put on" tournaments. They film Final Tables of tournaments that are run by many different properties. They produce quality television and DVD products. They do not run tournaments.
Then maybe it should read.
Do you honestly think that the WPT is going allow Niagra Falls to put on WPT branded tournaments if this keeps up?
After all, they own the trademark
Voodoo is at least raising his concerns with "personal" experience. Don't bash for the sake of bashing. We're beginning to sound like wild packs of dogs. Let Voodoo and Fallsview resolve their differences offline, then perhaps he and/or Fallsview can come back with an understanding.
At any of our clubs when a guy is this pissed and has as many sounding off as well, you are supposed to appologize and defuse the situation by handing Voodooo in private another voucher, and say sorry for the freak occurrance...."Have another shot on us". End of story.
The novel written about why it happened and what constitues action (which I actually agree with...the hand must continue unfortunately)....is all secondary to the real action needed here. A little slack!! they are not perfect.......heck I work the system to get rooms comped by tipping out Pit bosses to rate my table play higher and longer.....that means the slack is there.......The casino officials are foolish to try to explain it away in this fashion instead of giving Voodoo another voucher hands down. ESPECIALLY with so many people sounding off here.......Its about CUSTOMER SERVICE...Not the rules of poker anymore......
And by the way Nice Job Interview attempt Brent. I too would love to submit my resume with my poker room and Tourney experience.....and I think I would look better in the suit... hehe.:)
I think maybe we might be better in the WWE ring, King Kong Bundy and One Man Gang look a likes.
Seriously, as I said mistakes happen. The games go on, and sometimes you have the tools to make things right. I free ticket would have been a simply solution, but that takes from the bottom line and they feel they have know real competion from any so they will continue to botch customer service and card room and home satellites will be a strong presence in the game.
Prophet :2h :2s
I 2nd that..... between you and mathers I got a smile on today
Interesting point, Josh.
IF...the hand had gone on without anyone mentioning that the penalized player did not receive cards, the action would have been the same, the hand would have played out and Voodoo would have gone bust. Would he deserve a free voucher?
IF... the dealer/supervisor/manager had agreed that yes the penalized player should have been dealt in, but as there was already two active participants in the hand (Voodoo {the raiser} and the next player {the caller}) the hand would continue, Voodoo would have gone bust. Would he deserve a free voucher?
Dealing mistakes happen, whether from inexperience/lack of training/lack of understanding the rules/lack of focus/whatever they happen. No room runs poker games that are 100% dealer-error-free. Once the mistake is noticed, it needs to be rectified in the best way, applying the rules and common sense. In this case, rightly so, the hand was allowed to continue because it had two active participants. If the mistake was noticed before Voodoo had a caller, the hand would have been declared void (as it was in Voodoo's first example). The main issue in this whole situation is the wrong information being given by the dealer/supervisor/manager. But does Voodoo deserve a free voucher because of this? I do not believe so. If you do, why don't all of the other players in the satellite deserve the same thing? If you think they all deserve a free voucher, I doubt I will be able to change your mind.
2. The dealer was wrong and the floor staff was wrong in saying that the player penalized does not get cards, thus this being the casino's fault for not training their staff correctly for poker tournaments.
3. I just find it hard as a player and as a Tournament Director for my home games and at a private club, that all the players that were left in the tournament did NOT notice that the dealer missed dealing cards to the penalized player before all the cards are dealt. As players should you not be watching the action and the dealing.
It is very unfortunate that this has happened, and Fallsview Casino needs to train their staff for Tournament play and not just cash play, but the simple fact is that at least 1 of the players at the table should have noticed the dealers mistake before the action has been taken.
as I have said it is very unfortunate that this happened, but as was stated in previous posts, mistakes do happen, especially twice to th esame player, that is just really unfortunate.
It will not be the first time it happens and it will likely not be the last time that this occurs at a casino. We all are human and do make bad decisions from time to time.
I think the one issue here is how you keep changing the definition of ACTION. Here you say two people "acted" so they hand must play, but by fallsviews previous definition there wasn't two "ACTIONS". There was a bet and a call and by previous definition and I quote "The rule states that a "check, call, or fold is not considered action changing"." Two "actions" hadn't taken place according to Voodoo's side of things and your definition.
I realize that no poker room gets everything 100% right but when a 10K seat is on the line you'd expect a little consideration towards the players and not a get on with the tourney move them out and let's get a new one started attitude.
With all this being said, I have never played at the fallsview casino so I don't know first hand the quality of the dealers etc. But I have played at niagara and there has been major issues with me there, to the point where I won't play there anymore.
I do appreciate the fact that 13Cards and fallsview are attempting to air their sides and be player friendly. We certainly need more of that in general. You say you are trying to ensure someone isn't wronged by the misdealing of cards, here voodoo was wronged by the misdeal of cards and the changing of how the rules are applied.
Obviously some of this thread has started taking shots at you, but I don't believe my post was derogatory (although it did challenge you), and I am seriously interested in an answer to my question:
Yes dealer mistakes happen but no you are so clueless on what the main issue is. The main issue is that from management on down to the dealer level, you do not know what you are doing. While mistakes may happen, this was a basic dealer error and even the floor didn't know that the dealer made a mistake. How can that be? As I said before, that is just EMBARASSING. Not only did it happen once, but TWICE. After it was brought to your attention in the first place, did you even bother to do anything about it? Obviously not. A basic mistake like this can not be permitted to occur twice, certainly not in a 'professionally' run, licensed casino. Never mind the fact that your suits don't even know the rules.
What a joke your casino is. Every tournament I go to locally is more professionally run than your casino. Yes, some guy's basement is more professional than your casino because the hosts and the players know what they are doing, are aware of the rules, and do everything they can to make the game fair and consistent when mistakes are made. The tournaments are all self dealt and every player is aware of the rules, certainly a basic one that all stacks receive cards. This is SO basic. Incredibly basic. Mind bogglingly basic. How pathethic that your staff don't know that. Did I mention, embarassing? The hosts certainly know more about tournament rules, penalties and dispute resolution than any of your supervisors, not to mention that every effort is made to make sure the players feel that they are treated fairly and with respect. ie. they have more than an inkling about what 'customer service' is.
I wouldn't respond to this thread either if I were you. I'd be too embarassed. I don't think there would be any words I could write. I find it funny that some posters are actually trying to give you words to say because I don't think there are any.
No I don't think he should get a free voucher. But once it was identified that dealer error had cost Voodoo so heavily, AND that a suit was wrong as well it was certainly pathetic and a complete lack of customer service that voodoo left with nothing. Your casino base's your 'customer service' program on comps yet did Voodoo leave with a free limo ride the next time he visits? free show? free room? free buffet? free parking? Nope, just a free kick in the ass and a weak promise from you that we are 'working to ensure it doesn't happen again'. Sad.
Prophet :2h :2s
Beanie42...
In neither of these two situations as presented by Voodoo is a "check" an issue.
Scenario #1: posted blinds, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 raises and the hand is stopped.
Scenario #2: posted blinds, UTG raises All-IN, UTG+1 calls, the dealing error is pointed out, the hand continues to completion.
I am not dodging your question (as I am sure some members will say I am), I am purposely not answering it as I do not feel it has anything to do with the situations being discussed. If I have missed something, I am sorry, please point it out.
Moose...
How exactly did a dealer error cost Voodoo so heavily? I understand that the cards were not dealt to the penalized stack, however, the chance that the RANDOM cards dealt to Voodoo and everyone adversely affected his hand are exactly equal to the chances that the RANDOM cards helped his hand.
What the dealer got wrong, AFTER the fact the missed hand was pointed out, which came AFTER the raise all-in and the call, was that he provided the incorrect information about the rules. Agreed. What the suit got wrong was also that he provided incorrect information. Agreed. But the fact that the hand was ruled to continue IS THE RIGHT RULING. And because it is the right ruling, the result is the same for Voodoo, however unfortunate we all believe it to be.
AcidJoe....
Put as simply as possible:
Do you believe that a hand that consists of only ONE player entering the pot is sufficient enough investment/action/play/involvement to NOT declare it dead?
Do you believe that a hand that consists of TWO or more players entering the pot is sufficient enough play/investment/action/involvement to NOT declare it dead?
Regardless of how clearly written this rule may be, or how clearly explained it may have been previously on this forum, as a poker player myself, I can clearly see the difference between these two situations. And I would agree with the first being declared dead and void and the 2nd being allowed to continue. I know many of the members on here will scoff, but I have tried to look at this objectively. And since I was present for either situation, I have looked at through the eyes of a player and as the staff of the room.
Let me supplement my actual question by my thinking, and maybe you can extrapolate a question from it. There appears to be great inconsistency between the 2 rulings and the actual rule presented by Fallsview. If there is no inconsistency as you seem to be indicating, I'd love to know the actual rules your casino plays by. In my opinion, if there are actual written rules at your casino, it should be fairly apparent by reading/posting them what should occur, and then there would be no question why these 2 rulings are correct.
However, your statement of "Regardless of how clearly written this rule may be" scares me enough to keep me away from your casino. I can understand making rulings for fringe scenarios where rules aren't available, but totally ignoring the written rules on a whim makes the game subject to the mood swings of the floor. I don't mind betting on cards, but not on the rules...
I'm also pretty sure you're posting here on your own time (correct me if I'm wrong) and often taking a lot of flack from us. I question and disagree a lot, but I'm appreciative of the fact that you keep responding - thanks!
A mistake happened.....the house explained it...it is unfortunate....but rather than take the continuous bobardment of bad press on the matter...."13 cards" why doesn't the casino just step up and say sorry by passing him a new voucher. At Mcdonalds...you dont get an arguement of expaination you get a NEW BURGER......I know apples and oranges.....but it is kind of the same.
To make an analogy if someone had spilled some juice or ruined his 30K watch or expensive Shirt....or if a pit boss had picked up his cell phone off hte floor and broke it in the process.....don't you think the casino would step up and make restitution to keep people happy.....and in this case there seems to be alot of people unhappy with the fallsvu experience.
The sit n go was the same thing.....something didnt work right.....something he paid for......we analyized it....disected it....and decided that it happens, and its unfortunate.......NOW AMKE HIM HAPPY, and show all of these blog viewers that YOU ACTUALLY VALUE THEIR BUSINESS.
You, representing the casino, come across with a well known business overconfidence....and that is when some businesses are so busy they begin to think that they are there to service the clients as they please.....and forget that they are there BECUASE of their clients....
The SOUP NAZI (seinfeld) was so busy, even though he was an asswhole....because his soup was so good!!....
I think from this thread you can can the get the idea.......They are saying YOUR SOUP AIN'T THAT GOOD.
a Little customer service goes a long way!!
GIVE HIM ANOTHER SHOT!! and I would consider comming down to do the same...maybe play in the other games aswell.....That is what the casino wants....how is this NOT SINKING IN!