Monday, July 30 - September 3, 12 PM - 6 AM. Limit hold'em $5-$10 and $10-$20. Other games include Three-Card Poker, Hold'em Bonus, Blackjack and Roulette.
The Casino and Horse Show opened yesterday at the CNE. There were a lot of people already, including a steady line-up to apply for the CNE Casino VIP Package, which includes free parking and admission during The Ex.
Admission to the kid-friendly Horse Show is also free, so you can bring your family there, while you "go for a walk" to the nearby Casino.
anyone play, still a soft game? I played last year 10-20, which isn't too bad for a patient player as they take pot rather then session....... most players were playing bingo style so being patient was quite important and bluffing at the right moments like with 1 or 2 players in the pot
Monday, July 30 - September 3, 12 PM - 6 AM. Limit hold'em $5-$10 and $10-$20. Other games include Three-Card Poker, Hold'em Bonus, Blackjack and Roulette.
I think most 10-20 sessions are going to be better in terms of juice than $10 max rake.
I heard others quote that, i guess it could be true, max session is $5 or $10 i can't remeber per half an hour. It would come out pretty close though right?
The place was decorated with ... yellow paint on cinder blocks.
The people where dressed with a homeless persons eye for clothes.
The Dealers were the worst ever. You need to really watch that they push the pot to the right person. My first dealer was 0 for 3 pushing the pot to the winner. At least I didn't get the dealer that smelled like the most putrid BO I've ever smelt like I got last year. Most of the time the dealer pushes the pot to the wrong person.
Word of advice... pack a lunch... the food is scary bad.
There are no free beverages. Water bottles are $2.50 plus tip.
A word to the NL players, this is not your game as you will be chased down every pot, forget playing PP for the most part, stay with the suited connectors, and drawing cards.
No fold em hold em at its best....
maybe 2-3 decent players at each table (from what I watched and played on)
Fun game and very profitable.....don't be surprised when people start showing down K4, Q2. I always encourage that hand selection, like I said last night "hey who the hell wants to sit and fold, any face card is good in this game", as I pulled in a 500+ dollar pot....LOL
Hand recap 10/20
I have KK MP, make it 20 to go, 2 callers, button makes it 30??(thinking in the outer reaches of my brain he could have AA) I re-pop to 40, twiddle dee and twiddle dumb already in for 20 call the additional 2 bets, I mean why not...
Flop
K2Q rainbow
I bet it, get raised and re-raised....button caps it. (Ok if you all insist)
Turn 4....I throw out the bet, get raised again...this time just called, still 4 great players....LOL
River 7 (now no flush, no straight)
Here is where the action begins...I bet out my 20 again....get popped 40??, then popped 60....LMAO....button folds....I make it 80, and the other 2 call..
Yeah I lost 2-3 bets there....but I don't think there would have been that much action on the river if I had 3 bet the turn....I was thinking if I raise again that shows my hand for sure....considering we capped preflop and flop...
On the turn I am thinking they are putting me on AA or AK....mind you they weren't the smartest of players (capping flop with those cards) so you maybe right it could have just been a donkfest knowing very well they were drawing dead...
when I played last year, definately I agree, CNE environment and dealers were horrid, fish city definately which is why I said you had to patient, definately could not go on tilt as you will get a bad beat for sure.
On the flip side it's a great chance to captilize on the bingo poker players.
My questions is, do you think it's profitable as each time you'll get called down to the river with at least 3 players behind you? Seems to really come down to luck in the hopes you don't get sucked out on.
Yes, it's the most horrid poker you'll see anywhere (vs. casino, underground, etc). Back in the old days you had to seek out the roving "charity casinos", so most of the players who actually went to that effort were half decent. Then the CNE would open, which allowed the non-players and bad players a chance to play. Good action and reasonable +EV. Now many (most?) of the good players at these limits are playing NL. Yes, very good limit players exist, but they mostly populate the 20-40 games. Also, anyone who wants to play in nice surroundings is already at the real casino(s).
The dealers are awful. Realize that any prof. dealer already has a job somewhere else. The EX trains their staff before they open, but who does the training I don't know. The point is, if someone needs to be trained and licensed it means they're new to the job. Strike one. The room is almost always full, and there's nowhere for you to go and wait. No sports bar, no lounge, no nothing. Strike two. Limited selection of food/drink, and nothing is free. Strike three the EX is out. Oh, and STRIKE FOUR is the enormous rake. Larger than any legit casino anywhere on the continent.
It is better now that it's non smoking. Before the ban the room, which is separated from the blackjack area by a glass wall, was so smokey you could barely see the other side.
The biggest problem for skilled players is the sheer quantity of poor play. Now, we all want a few donks at the table, because they provide the money for the game. That said, if it's five donks, three average players, and two skilled players, and it's always six to the flop and four to the turn, we skilled folk are going to lose more than we win. Yes, patience is important, as is recognizing how your table plays and adapting your game. However, if you keep losing with hands such as the one above (he won, but say the third guy hit his runner-runner full house), you will begin to get upset. I know we all think we can prevent tilt, but part of being a winner is feeling and acting like one. When you radiate confidence when you bet/raise, people are more likely to throw away their hands. When you are obviously taking horrible beats, and the look on your face shows it, people are going to treat your bets with less respect, even though you are still betting with the best of it. Also, it's limit, so it's "only one more bet, what the heck, I call". Yes, we want the bad hands to call, but only up to a point. To get back to my point at the beginning of this paragraph, we don't want too much poor play, only some. Example: if we have pocket aces, yes we want callers. We don't want five callers though. If we raise the flop and still have four callers to the turn, chances are we end up losing the hand. We don't want that.
I think the EX is ok for a few hours of play if you are in the area with nothing to do. If you end up winner, quit as soon as is reasonable and don't go back. The longer you put yourself in an -EV situation, eventually you will lose. Again, I'm not knocking the people who read this, I'm just saying we're outnumbered and can't win there in the long term. Short session, book your win and get out.
I'll leave you with an example from last summer, then I'll quit my rant. I'll probably see all of you at the sno-cone booth anyway. I went late last August, late night. I do well at 5-10, leave at dawn well ahead. Figure I'll go back again for 10-20. I had been playing NL, so I wanted to refresh my limit skills at the lower level first. Early evening, table looks reasonable. I go up then down, so I'm about even. Last hand of the night for me is as follows; I leave and never go back. Haven't even thought about it until this thread. Early position raises, mid-late position and cut-off call, I re-raise with KK (I believe BB, maybe SB). Early guy re-raises, now I'm thinking about AA. Other two guys BOTH call, essentially cold-calling two bets. What could player three be thinking? He calls a raise, then calls two more? Not smart in his position. Cut-off is now priced in of course. I'm eyeing early guy, trying to decide if he's got AA. Flop is K-9-x rainbow, I believe x is a two or three. I of course bet, counting on him to raise with AA. Of course he does, and then the other two guys both cold-call two bets. Any half-decent poker player folds here, no question. Only redraws are possible, and it was capped pre-flop, then goes bet/raise by the two pre-flop actors. I raise and AA caps it, and AGAIN the other two guys call two bets each. Turn is an 8. I bet, AA shows no clue about my hand (or possible 99 in late position) and raises again. Again two callers, etc etc. Early guy and I cap the betting, and I know I'm way ahead. I also put both of the other two on draws, J-10 most likely. I'm sure 99 would have reraised at least once at some point. Of course the river is a 7. I check, AA bets, as he's still clueless. Guy one raises, guy two reraises, now what can I do? The betting was capped EVERY ROUND, and they still called. Of course they both showed J-10. Aces guy was pissed, not having a clue that he was beaten on the flop. I told him I had KK and I don't think he believed me! Anyway, I went home and ran an odds calculator, just to remind myself that I wasn't being too hard on the stupid J-10 guys. As I recall, they were 16% on the flop, and 20% on the turn. Note that without any draws at all on the flop they were at 16%, but that percentage only goes up to 20% when they hit a card they need! This is why skilled players don't throw money into pots they most likely can't win! That's one of the first skills a LIMIT player has to learn. These donks both CALLED CAPPED ACTION on every street, when only 20% AT BEST to win. Even the AA guy should know better on the turn, given that his winning percentage actually goes down from 8% to 5% after the turn.
Lesson over. You have been warned. Good luck to you all.
PS. I wish NL was legal and allowed at the EX. Then a big enough bankroll puts the odds back in the skilled players' favour. I only hope I develop some skills by then!
Then a big enough bankroll puts the odds back in the skilled players' favour.
What does bankroll size have to do with player skill? Maybe you should consider the fact that you don't know as much about limit as you think you do and leave it at that.
I heard others quote that, i guess it could be true, max session is $5 or $10 i can't remeber per half an hour. It would come out pretty close though right?
Well, to compare to Brantford. 10-20 session is $5/half hour/player. So they're taking $100 off the table each hour.
Assuming they're dealing somewhere in the neighbourhood of around 25 hands/hr, and assuming almost all pots will hit max rake (let's say an average of $9 rake/hand). Then they're taking around $225/hr off the table each hour (more than double a session).
As I recall, they were 16% on the flop, and 20% on the turn. Note that without any draws at all on the flop they were at 16%, but that percentage only goes up to 20% when they hit a card they need! This is why skilled players don't throw money into pots they most likely can't win!
You should almost ALWAYS throw money into pots you "likely" can't win (ie. where you're not a favorite) if the pot odds are there. And, without being convinced they were splitting the pot, both of these JT guys (especially if they were suited and caught a backdoor flush draw on the flop too) were pretty much priced in at every street. I don't think this is as bad as you're making it out to be.
I'm definitely not a terrible player. And while Spicol is correct that pot odds dictate calling, good limit players know how to save bets, and don't begin chasing when they know they're dominated. I was going to mention that pot odds dictate calling, but deliberately didn't because the point of my post was to say that these are the types of players you're dealing with. Some might know pot odds, but they can't make the laydowns they're supposed to make on the early streets. In no-limit you can take cards off with lower odds knowing that you can stack someone if you hit the river; in limit, you win long-term by folding the marginal hands early, ESPECIALLY with the capped action I described. If your overall poker "strategy" is to just limp/call all the time, throwing money into the pot chasing "luck", you'd might as well play blackjack where you're almost 50% to win each hand. That's all I'm saying.
And while Spicol is correct that pot odds dictate calling, good limit players know how to save bets, and don't begin chasing when they know they're dominated.
Good limit players will chase a thin draw to the nuts (even a gutshot) if the pot odds are there. And I'm not saying these geniouses knew whether or not they were getting the right odds or not. But getting like 9.5:1 (albeit not closing the action) on a gutshot (factor in some implied odds) and it's not a terrible call (albeit it is probably close). If I had to guess whether folding or calling 2 cold here is worse, I'd probably say folding (especially if there were any backdoor flush possibilities).
Crazy loose games require a different mindset IMO. You have to be prepared to take your lumps, you can't expect people to do what you would expect, and you certainly need to be looking for reasons to call/raise when the pot gets big, because that's not a game for making hero folds.
Have to agree with Scooby and BBZ here. Your theories sound a bit off 3m despite using poker terminology, and frankly you kind of lost me when you said a game filled with bad players is - EV to a good player.
That situation does create one of unintended collusion where a bunch of bad hands all with improper odds to play collectively make a good players chance of winning a specific pot less, however this is more then compensated by the fact that the pot sizes will be immense compared to a more standard heads up situation.
I do agree that nitty tight play is not the way to go here, one has to be mentally prepared for the bad beats and the variance of the results will be a LOT bigger then normal games, but playing in a fearful manner because of all of the chasers will just cost bets.
My memory of that casino 2 years ago when I went in for 5 minutes was that it was a training ground for gamblers anonymous after watching the table games for 2 minutes. The ladies washroom with the door open so one can see all of the feet in the stalls was quite the classy touch.
It was a smelly pit but I imagine quite +EV potential, still it was not of much interest to me as a place to actually be for an extended period of time.
The very least you need to know about how to adjust your game to bad players like at the CNE.
This is a simplified summary of how to play. (expert players can spot where I've over condensed here, this is not intended to reiterate SSH & HEPFAP)
If you have questions please ask.
Since this is for beginners:
If you don't have questions, then you don't understand.
0.
This assumes you know enough to ...
Never cold call preflop without something like AQs or KQs.
That you play tight in early (88+,QTs+,AJ+,KQ+) Looser middle, and very loose and aggressive from late position.
1.
Six to nine players limp to the flop?
Play preflop is loose and passive?
Therefore,
You can call with small pairs and small suited connectors even in early position, since there will be six players to the flop you are priced in. Even if someone does a rare raise you will still be priced in because players stay and pay you off if you hit.
2. What to raise preflop.
Raise the dickens out of your high suited connectors, They play very well in pots with tons of players.
KJs is a raising hand.
3. When to bet.
Value bet like a mofo. Never slowplay until your early preflop raises get too much respect.
It's not a 2 card game: The amount of equity they lose for their loose preflop play gives them odds to call on the turn and river with their draws and suck out on you.
In other words if you bloat the pot preflop/flop you are forcing them to play correctly when they call postflop against you.
5.
27o is 13% to beat AA. With 9 players in the pot loose calling isn't so bad.
Your primary skill is identifying value bets on the turn and river. *NOT* and I repeat, *NOT* preflop better hand selection. Better preflop play will earn you a small and highly variable win rate... Post flop skill will let you thrive.
6.
Don't eat any of the food.
Avoid the washrooms like the plague.
7.
Watch that the dealers don't push your pot to the wrong person.
8.
I wrote this so we could have a standard place to point to when people say, "The players are too bad to beat"
9.
Comments? I know parts of this might seem to contradict other parts.
Yes, it's the most horrid poker you'll see anywhere (vs. casino, underground, etc). Back in the old days you had to seek out the roving "charity casinos", so most of the players who actually went to that effort were half decent. Then the CNE would open, which allowed the non-players and bad players a chance to play. Good action and reasonable +EV. Now many (most?) of the good players at these limits are playing NL. Yes, very good limit players exist, but they mostly populate the 20-40 games. Also, anyone who wants to play in nice surroundings is already at the real casino(s).
The dealers are awful. Realize that any prof. dealer already has a job somewhere else. The EX trains their staff before they open, but who does the training I don't know. The point is, if someone needs to be trained and licensed it means they're new to the job. Strike one. The room is almost always full, and there's nowhere for you to go and wait. No sports bar, no lounge, no nothing. Strike two. Limited selection of food/drink, and nothing is free. Strike three the EX is out. Oh, and STRIKE FOUR is the enormous rake. Larger than any legit casino anywhere on the continent.
It is better now that it's non smoking. Before the ban the room, which is separated from the blackjack area by a glass wall, was so smokey you could barely see the other side.
The biggest problem for skilled players is the sheer quantity of poor play. Now, we all want a few donks at the table, because they provide the money for the game. That said, if it's five donks, three average players, and two skilled players, and it's always six to the flop and four to the turn, we skilled folk are going to lose more than we win. Yes, patience is important, as is recognizing how your table plays and adapting your game. However, if you keep losing with hands such as the one above (he won, but say the third guy hit his runner-runner full house), you will begin to get upset. I know we all think we can prevent tilt, but part of being a winner is feeling and acting like one. When you radiate confidence when you bet/raise, people are more likely to throw away their hands. When you are obviously taking horrible beats, and the look on your face shows it, people are going to treat your bets with less respect, even though you are still betting with the best of it. Also, it's limit, so it's "only one more bet, what the heck, I call". Yes, we want the bad hands to call, but only up to a point. To get back to my point at the beginning of this paragraph, we don't want too much poor play, only some. Example: if we have pocket aces, yes we want callers. We don't want five callers though. If we raise the flop and still have four callers to the turn, chances are we end up losing the hand. We don't want that.
I think the EX is ok for a few hours of play if you are in the area with nothing to do. If you end up winner, quit as soon as is reasonable and don't go back. The longer you put yourself in an -EV situation, eventually you will lose. Again, I'm not knocking the people who read this, I'm just saying we're outnumbered and can't win there in the long term. Short session, book your win and get out.
I'll leave you with an example from last summer, then I'll quit my rant. I'll probably see all of you at the sno-cone booth anyway. I went late last August, late night. I do well at 5-10, leave at dawn well ahead. Figure I'll go back again for 10-20. I had been playing NL, so I wanted to refresh my limit skills at the lower level first. Early evening, table looks reasonable. I go up then down, so I'm about even. Last hand of the night for me is as follows; I leave and never go back. Haven't even thought about it until this thread. Early position raises, mid-late position and cut-off call, I re-raise with KK (I believe BB, maybe SB). Early guy re-raises, now I'm thinking about AA. Other two guys BOTH call, essentially cold-calling two bets. What could player three be thinking? He calls a raise, then calls two more? Not smart in his position. Cut-off is now priced in of course. I'm eyeing early guy, trying to decide if he's got AA. Flop is K-9-x rainbow, I believe x is a two or three. I of course bet, counting on him to raise with AA. Of course he does, and then the other two guys both cold-call two bets. Any half-decent poker player folds here, no question. Only redraws are possible, and it was capped pre-flop, then goes bet/raise by the two pre-flop actors. I raise and AA caps it, and AGAIN the other two guys call two bets each. Turn is an 8. I bet, AA shows no clue about my hand (or possible 99 in late position) and raises again. Again two callers, etc etc. Early guy and I cap the betting, and I know I'm way ahead. I also put both of the other two on draws, J-10 most likely. I'm sure 99 would have reraised at least once at some point. Of course the river is a 7. I check, AA bets, as he's still clueless. Guy one raises, guy two reraises, now what can I do? The betting was capped EVERY ROUND, and they still called. Of course they both showed J-10. Aces guy was pissed, not having a clue that he was beaten on the flop. I told him I had KK and I don't think he believed me! Anyway, I went home and ran an odds calculator, just to remind myself that I wasn't being too hard on the stupid J-10 guys. As I recall, they were 16% on the flop, and 20% on the turn. Note that without any draws at all on the flop they were at 16%, but that percentage only goes up to 20% when they hit a card they need! This is why skilled players don't throw money into pots they most likely can't win! That's one of the first skills a LIMIT player has to learn. These donks both CALLED CAPPED ACTION on every street, when only 20% AT BEST to win. Even the AA guy should know better on the turn, given that his winning percentage actually goes down from 8% to 5% after the turn.
Lesson over. You have been warned. Good luck to you all.
PS. I wish NL was legal and allowed at the EX. Then a big enough bankroll puts the odds back in the skilled players' favour. I only hope I develop some skills by then!
We agree on many aspects of the CNE.
It's very frustrating to play against donks.
They send your variance sky high.
It can seem like you can't beat really bad games.
When people call and hit their 1 out.
When you lose money because people play badly.
When you lose 300 Big bets due to variance and then lose 40 big bets because someone doesn't throw away K4o and calls 3 bets cold preflop.
And...
This is what makes the game great.
Each session is only a few hundred hands...
You will win in the long run... (60,000 or so hands)
You know Reef that is about as good of a description as to how to play low limit HE as I have seen anywhere. I think it would be pretty good play for the lowest limit games at whatever casino you are at. I can think of several games in vegas where similar play would work, maybe not quite as bad as what is described at the CNE but similar.
You know Reef that is about as good of a description as to how to play low limit HE as I have seen anywhere. I think it would be pretty good play for the lowest limit games at whatever casino you are at. I can think of several games in vegas where similar play would work, maybe not quite as bad as what is described at the CNE but similar.
Thanks,
It's nothing special, all the good players know the above already. I've just never seen anyone write it down on this forum.
I wanted to have something to point to when people say.
"I can't win against these donkeys, they play so bad I can't beat them"
Well guess what? My win rate is 4bb/100 but my standard deviation is 17...
So about one time in twenty I'm going to lose over 17+17-4=30 big fucking blinds.
So I can lose over $600 playing donkeys at 10/20 at the CNE.
But in the long run ... I win.
Other comments?
PS. As an aside, the main "problem" with deep stack no limit is that fish *almost never* have a winning session. Hence the games dry up and die. Limit and low buyin nolimit lets fish have a winning session and sometimes convince themselves that they are winning players. Crap shoot no skill donkaments are appealing to casino owners for the same reason - They are fish friendly.
Comments? I know parts of this might seem to contradict other parts.
OK, I'll bite. While (generally) you shouldn't be semibluffing as much (because the bluffing aspect won't work), you CAN raise your biggish draws (or even just your OK draws) straight up for value. In position this tends to work even better since you may get a free turn card, and once the LP has called one bet they'll call one (or 3) more usually. Of course this will generally help your ultra tight image as well (for the rare person that notices such a thing).
Comments
Admission to the kid-friendly Horse Show is also free, so you can bring your family there, while you "go for a walk"
thats not bad
I think most 10-20 sessions are going to be better in terms of juice than $10 max rake.
For Caribana I'm sure.
I heard others quote that, i guess it could be true, max session is $5 or $10 i can't remeber per half an hour. It would come out pretty close though right?
The place was decorated with ... yellow paint on cinder blocks.
The people where dressed with a homeless persons eye for clothes.
The Dealers were the worst ever. You need to really watch that they push the pot to the right person. My first dealer was 0 for 3 pushing the pot to the winner. At least I didn't get the dealer that smelled like the most putrid BO I've ever smelt like I got last year. Most of the time the dealer pushes the pot to the wrong person.
Word of advice... pack a lunch... the food is scary bad.
There are no free beverages. Water bottles are $2.50 plus tip.
The washrooms are disgusting.
A word to the NL players, this is not your game as you will be chased down every pot, forget playing PP for the most part, stay with the suited connectors, and drawing cards.
No fold em hold em at its best....
maybe 2-3 decent players at each table (from what I watched and played on)
Fun game and very profitable.....don't be surprised when people start showing down K4, Q2. I always encourage that hand selection, like I said last night "hey who the hell wants to sit and fold, any face card is good in this game", as I pulled in a 500+ dollar pot....LOL
Hand recap 10/20
I have KK MP, make it 20 to go, 2 callers, button makes it 30??(thinking in the outer reaches of my brain he could have AA) I re-pop to 40, twiddle dee and twiddle dumb already in for 20 call the additional 2 bets, I mean why not...
Flop
K2Q rainbow
I bet it, get raised and re-raised....button caps it. (Ok if you all insist)
Turn 4....I throw out the bet, get raised again...this time just called, still 4 great players....LOL
River 7 (now no flush, no straight)
Here is where the action begins...I bet out my 20 again....get popped 40??, then popped 60....LMAO....button folds....I make it 80, and the other 2 call..
Yup
I show down KK
vs K4 and Q2
The button who mucked had JJ....LMAO
On the turn I am thinking they are putting me on AA or AK....mind you they weren't the smartest of players (capping flop with those cards) so you maybe right it could have just been a donkfest knowing very well they were drawing dead...
Thanks for the insight...
On the flip side it's a great chance to captilize on the bingo poker players.
My questions is, do you think it's profitable as each time you'll get called down to the river with at least 3 players behind you? Seems to really come down to luck in the hopes you don't get sucked out on.
The dealers are awful. Realize that any prof. dealer already has a job somewhere else. The EX trains their staff before they open, but who does the training I don't know. The point is, if someone needs to be trained and licensed it means they're new to the job. Strike one. The room is almost always full, and there's nowhere for you to go and wait. No sports bar, no lounge, no nothing. Strike two. Limited selection of food/drink, and nothing is free. Strike three the EX is out. Oh, and STRIKE FOUR is the enormous rake. Larger than any legit casino anywhere on the continent.
It is better now that it's non smoking. Before the ban the room, which is separated from the blackjack area by a glass wall, was so smokey you could barely see the other side.
The biggest problem for skilled players is the sheer quantity of poor play. Now, we all want a few donks at the table, because they provide the money for the game. That said, if it's five donks, three average players, and two skilled players, and it's always six to the flop and four to the turn, we skilled folk are going to lose more than we win. Yes, patience is important, as is recognizing how your table plays and adapting your game. However, if you keep losing with hands such as the one above (he won, but say the third guy hit his runner-runner full house), you will begin to get upset. I know we all think we can prevent tilt, but part of being a winner is feeling and acting like one. When you radiate confidence when you bet/raise, people are more likely to throw away their hands. When you are obviously taking horrible beats, and the look on your face shows it, people are going to treat your bets with less respect, even though you are still betting with the best of it. Also, it's limit, so it's "only one more bet, what the heck, I call". Yes, we want the bad hands to call, but only up to a point. To get back to my point at the beginning of this paragraph, we don't want too much poor play, only some. Example: if we have pocket aces, yes we want callers. We don't want five callers though. If we raise the flop and still have four callers to the turn, chances are we end up losing the hand. We don't want that.
I think the EX is ok for a few hours of play if you are in the area with nothing to do. If you end up winner, quit as soon as is reasonable and don't go back. The longer you put yourself in an -EV situation, eventually you will lose. Again, I'm not knocking the people who read this, I'm just saying we're outnumbered and can't win there in the long term. Short session, book your win and get out.
I'll leave you with an example from last summer, then I'll quit my rant. I'll probably see all of you at the sno-cone booth anyway. I went late last August, late night. I do well at 5-10, leave at dawn well ahead. Figure I'll go back again for 10-20. I had been playing NL, so I wanted to refresh my limit skills at the lower level first. Early evening, table looks reasonable. I go up then down, so I'm about even. Last hand of the night for me is as follows; I leave and never go back. Haven't even thought about it until this thread. Early position raises, mid-late position and cut-off call, I re-raise with KK (I believe BB, maybe SB). Early guy re-raises, now I'm thinking about AA. Other two guys BOTH call, essentially cold-calling two bets. What could player three be thinking? He calls a raise, then calls two more? Not smart in his position. Cut-off is now priced in of course. I'm eyeing early guy, trying to decide if he's got AA. Flop is K-9-x rainbow, I believe x is a two or three. I of course bet, counting on him to raise with AA. Of course he does, and then the other two guys both cold-call two bets. Any half-decent poker player folds here, no question. Only redraws are possible, and it was capped pre-flop, then goes bet/raise by the two pre-flop actors. I raise and AA caps it, and AGAIN the other two guys call two bets each. Turn is an 8. I bet, AA shows no clue about my hand (or possible 99 in late position) and raises again. Again two callers, etc etc. Early guy and I cap the betting, and I know I'm way ahead. I also put both of the other two on draws, J-10 most likely. I'm sure 99 would have reraised at least once at some point. Of course the river is a 7. I check, AA bets, as he's still clueless. Guy one raises, guy two reraises, now what can I do? The betting was capped EVERY ROUND, and they still called. Of course they both showed J-10. Aces guy was pissed, not having a clue that he was beaten on the flop. I told him I had KK and I don't think he believed me! Anyway, I went home and ran an odds calculator, just to remind myself that I wasn't being too hard on the stupid J-10 guys. As I recall, they were 16% on the flop, and 20% on the turn. Note that without any draws at all on the flop they were at 16%, but that percentage only goes up to 20% when they hit a card they need! This is why skilled players don't throw money into pots they most likely can't win! That's one of the first skills a LIMIT player has to learn. These donks both CALLED CAPPED ACTION on every street, when only 20% AT BEST to win. Even the AA guy should know better on the turn, given that his winning percentage actually goes down from 8% to 5% after the turn.
Lesson over. You have been warned. Good luck to you all.
PS. I wish NL was legal and allowed at the EX. Then a big enough bankroll puts the odds back in the skilled players' favour. I only hope I develop some skills by then!
What does bankroll size have to do with player skill? Maybe you should consider the fact that you don't know as much about limit as you think you do and leave it at that.
Well, to compare to Brantford. 10-20 session is $5/half hour/player. So they're taking $100 off the table each hour.
Assuming they're dealing somewhere in the neighbourhood of around 25 hands/hr, and assuming almost all pots will hit max rake (let's say an average of $9 rake/hand). Then they're taking around $225/hr off the table each hour (more than double a session).
TL; DR but the gist is you are a terrible player.
You should almost ALWAYS throw money into pots you "likely" can't win (ie. where you're not a favorite) if the pot odds are there. And, without being convinced they were splitting the pot, both of these JT guys (especially if they were suited and caught a backdoor flush draw on the flop too) were pretty much priced in at every street. I don't think this is as bad as you're making it out to be.
Please, 3m, don't tell us anymore of your limit theory. It's really really bad.
Good limit players will chase a thin draw to the nuts (even a gutshot) if the pot odds are there. And I'm not saying these geniouses knew whether or not they were getting the right odds or not. But getting like 9.5:1 (albeit not closing the action) on a gutshot (factor in some implied odds) and it's not a terrible call (albeit it is probably close). If I had to guess whether folding or calling 2 cold here is worse, I'd probably say folding (especially if there were any backdoor flush possibilities).
Crazy loose games require a different mindset IMO. You have to be prepared to take your lumps, you can't expect people to do what you would expect, and you certainly need to be looking for reasons to call/raise when the pot gets big, because that's not a game for making hero folds.
That situation does create one of unintended collusion where a bunch of bad hands all with improper odds to play collectively make a good players chance of winning a specific pot less, however this is more then compensated by the fact that the pot sizes will be immense compared to a more standard heads up situation.
I do agree that nitty tight play is not the way to go here, one has to be mentally prepared for the bad beats and the variance of the results will be a LOT bigger then normal games, but playing in a fearful manner because of all of the chasers will just cost bets.
My memory of that casino 2 years ago when I went in for 5 minutes was that it was a training ground for gamblers anonymous after watching the table games for 2 minutes. The ladies washroom with the door open so one can see all of the feet in the stalls was quite the classy touch.
It was a smelly pit but I imagine quite +EV potential, still it was not of much interest to me as a place to actually be for an extended period of time.
This is a simplified summary of how to play. (expert players can spot where I've over condensed here, this is not intended to reiterate SSH & HEPFAP)
If you have questions please ask.
Since this is for beginners:
If you don't have questions, then you don't understand.
0.
This assumes you know enough to ...
Never cold call preflop without something like AQs or KQs.
That you play tight in early (88+,QTs+,AJ+,KQ+) Looser middle, and very loose and aggressive from late position.
1.
Six to nine players limp to the flop?
Play preflop is loose and passive?
Therefore,
You can call with small pairs and small suited connectors even in early position, since there will be six players to the flop you are priced in. Even if someone does a rare raise you will still be priced in because players stay and pay you off if you hit.
2. What to raise preflop.
Raise the dickens out of your high suited connectors, They play very well in pots with tons of players.
KJs is a raising hand.
3. When to bet.
Value bet like a mofo. Never slowplay until your early preflop raises get too much respect.
For the most part.
Don't Bluff Multiplayer pots.
Don't Semi Bluff Multiplayer pots.
Don't continuation bet Multiplayer pots.
Your check raise will not isolate.
4.
Pot Size Control
It's not a 2 card game: The amount of equity they lose for their loose preflop play gives them odds to call on the turn and river with their draws and suck out on you.
In other words if you bloat the pot preflop/flop you are forcing them to play correctly when they call postflop against you.
5.
27o is 13% to beat AA. With 9 players in the pot loose calling isn't so bad.
Your primary skill is identifying value bets on the turn and river. *NOT* and I repeat, *NOT* preflop better hand selection. Better preflop play will earn you a small and highly variable win rate... Post flop skill will let you thrive.
6.
Don't eat any of the food.
Avoid the washrooms like the plague.
7.
Watch that the dealers don't push your pot to the wrong person.
8.
I wrote this so we could have a standard place to point to when people say, "The players are too bad to beat"
9.
Comments? I know parts of this might seem to contradict other parts.
We agree on many aspects of the CNE.
It's very frustrating to play against donks.
They send your variance sky high.
It can seem like you can't beat really bad games.
When people call and hit their 1 out.
When you lose money because people play badly.
When you lose 300 Big bets due to variance and then lose 40 big bets because someone doesn't throw away K4o and calls 3 bets cold preflop.
And...
This is what makes the game great.
Each session is only a few hundred hands...
You will win in the long run... (60,000 or so hands)
Thanks,
It's nothing special, all the good players know the above already. I've just never seen anyone write it down on this forum.
I wanted to have something to point to when people say.
"I can't win against these donkeys, they play so bad I can't beat them"
Well guess what? My win rate is 4bb/100 but my standard deviation is 17...
So about one time in twenty I'm going to lose over 17+17-4=30 big fucking blinds.
So I can lose over $600 playing donkeys at 10/20 at the CNE.
But in the long run ... I win.
Other comments?
PS. As an aside, the main "problem" with deep stack no limit is that fish *almost never* have a winning session. Hence the games dry up and die. Limit and low buyin nolimit lets fish have a winning session and sometimes convince themselves that they are winning players. Crap shoot no skill donkaments are appealing to casino owners for the same reason - They are fish friendly.
OK, I'll bite. While (generally) you shouldn't be semibluffing as much (because the bluffing aspect won't work), you CAN raise your biggish draws (or even just your OK draws) straight up for value. In position this tends to work even better since you may get a free turn card, and once the LP has called one bet they'll call one (or 3) more usually. Of course this will generally help your ultra tight image as well (for the rare person that notices such a thing).