There are too many people to quote in this debate. I really did not want to get involved. To be honest, I grew tired of it. It used to be a passion much like poker or baseball, but I am old now and grew weary in the fight. I have decided to pinch hit and share my thoughts because there are things being said that I just can’t ignore any longer. Misrepresentations, mistruths and misdirection’s.
Christianity is not about following a set of rules. And it is about choices that we make. Like it or not we have Free Will, the ability to choose.
Because man broke God’s law and choose to disobey, the world be can to change. Death entered the word, death start the second law of thermal dynamics, everything is winding down and coming to an end.
God reveals Himself to us in 3 forums 1) His written Word – the Bible; 2) Creation- -we call this general revelation and the things of the world are of His revelation to make himself known to us Romans 1: 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
And number 3 Jesus of Nazareth made a claim to be God in John 1:1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
Verse 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
Now that is where it gets really interesting. This one verse separates Jesus from every other religious leader. No one would claim to be God that just would not make much sense. Jesus was either a Liar, or either a Lunatic, or He was who He said He was: King of Kings and Lord of Lord Who Is Coming Again!!
C. S. Lewis presented this argument over BBC radio and later in his seminal work Mere Christianity back in the 1940's. C. S. Lewis own words are worth repeating.
“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God." That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg - or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to. Page 55-56 of the above book
Follow the logic
The Lord, Liar, Lunatic Argument
JESUS CLAIMS TO BE GOD
2 paths can follow
Path One
A. Claims were false
B. two alternatives
1) He knew His claims were false, knew being the key word
2) He made deliberate misrepresentations
Conclusions: He was a liar
Path Two
A. He did not know His claims were false
B. He was sincerely deluded
C. Conclusions: He was a LUNATIC
The Lord, Liar, Lunatic Argument
JESUS CLAIMS TO BE GOD
Path One
A. Claims were true and you believe or
B. You can disbelieve
Either way you make the choice and are responsible for it today tomorrow or in the future.
I have chosen to believe, plain and simple. Some have chosen not to believe. Again God gave that FREE WILL. Contrary to those who think the Bible is a good book for guidelines on how to live in this world, it isn’t. It is about learning how to have a personal relationship with the creator himself Jesus Christ of Nazareth. All the history questions all the science questions can be answer, if you are willing to do the work. My beliefs in no way infringe on your right to choose to live, you live according the guidelines you to choice to live by.
These are 2 very different questions. Do I believe that you are my equal? Yes. You do a job, you should get paid the same as me. Do I own you in some way, shape or form? No. Do I believe God will hold me accountable for the decision that I make in regard to our relationship(when I was married) yes I believe that I will be held more accountable than my ex. Do this mean she is off the hook completely, No. Do I think a woman can be a doctor and every bit good as a man? Yes I have a female doctor. Do I think a my wife has the right to have an abortion, NO. The choice doesn't belong to her. I can go on, but does that suffice?
As far as homosexuality and christianity and the room it seems I leave, let me clear it up.
There are good people "Christians" on both sides of this debate. Homosexuality is not for me. Nor do I think it is the norm. Does that mean I hate them? NO. When Tony Dungy finally beat New England, I said final he is in the Super Bowl. You know what I was hearing by black people? Tony Dundgy and Lovie Smith are the first BLACK HEAD COACHES in the SUPER BOWL.
Never once did it occur to me the colour of his skin.
Someone is gay, I believe it is his choice, does it mean that he can't come to church? Yes he can. You want to get into the science of fine, you want to get into the Philosophical argumement of God create me gay I can deal with it, but i think a forum like this is not the place. It is not my place to change the way people think. I desperately tired to get a girl I knew to believe the way I did. She ended up going to Vancover. I realized then, it is not my job, I cannot change peoples hearts. God changes the heart of the person willing to listen.
People are going to make there choice based on there environment, upbring, reading, knowledge acquired, popularity and many other things and form their own personal world view.
Mine starts at the top of my chart - Jesus is God - Creator and the King of Kings it then goes throught the revelation He has given us - His word, and with the guideance of the Holy Spirit whom He left behind to help us, I come to the conclusions I do. I believe He is in control, it is by His hands the world is being held together.
Do I think I am better than anyelse? No except by the grace of God, I have forgiveness that he offers everyone.
If I have a son and I let him play with Barbies and her friends at the age of 5 will that make him a player? I might aswell sign him up for Ballet.
Wow, what topic....this has to be, IMHO, one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever heard. I am well versed in saying the wrong thing at the wrong time but man, this kind of thinking is just plain wrong and could not be farther from the truth, you sir truly are ignorant.
I love reading all this debate it is very educating...for what it's worth I am uncomfortable with open signs of affection between people of the same sex, I think probably because of a few things, my lack of understanding, my upbringing (my father was extremely racist and blatant about it), and probably a little because, for now, it is not the norm...and please by no means do I mean it is not normal, I'm not sure if typed word can express what I mean but I think it is still treated by the masses as uncommon? That said who am I to think I am better then someone who is gay, we are different albeit equal, it is not up to me to judge, I have no right to judge. Eventhough it makes me uncomfortable to see signs of affection in public by same sex it also makes me uncomfortable seeing signs of affection in public by opposite sex partners (and I don't mean holding hands, or kissing, I mean more blatant stuff) BUT the display of love between ANY TWO creatures including man should not really bother me and certainly should not be questioned...do we all forget 'to each their own'? Ultimitely I have a choice to watch that video or not and I chose not to. We all have our own opinions and are entitled to them but what I have a real problem with is someone actively going out to find something they don't understand and then attacking it, which is what you did djalikool, which is very uncool. I also believe this is not a choice, it has been said that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.....what makes me perk up when I see my wife getting dressed up for a night out, it's something inside of me that I was born with...did I play with Barbies...damn right I wanted to see what was under their clothes....each person finds something different that they are attracted to and just because you don't understand how someone could find someone of the same sex attractive does not give you the right to make the comments you did. Everyone deserves to be happy and find love however they see fit, without judgement....happiness is something different for everyone!!! Similarly, I find myself slightly racist, I try daily to overcome this, I know it is wrong and I believe over the years I have 'improved' but growing up in a home being raised by a man who was extremely racist (toward one race in particular) has tainted me to this day, the first 10 years of ones life shapes the person you are I believe but I also believe people can change...and I strive everyday to NOT pass that down to my kids, with the help of my wife who is not racist in the least and very open-minded I think I am succeeding.
Further, I personally believe science answers all the questions I have but I do not pass judgement on someone who believes in a 'God', I don't agree with it, to me the bible is a nice work of fiction, but I certainly understand the whole idea that a 'God' must be responsible for things we don't understand...and I understand ones desire to believe in a 'higher power', however with the advances of science and the knowledge we have today of, say, something like evolution and how we are born I find it odd that people still say 'God made me', umm no, no, I believe your God had nothing to do with it? I'm not sure what point I'm making here now but I am starting to ramble....I think basically I wanted to say if you must judge someone, judge them on their actions, not their beliefs and if you must comment on someones beliefs or debate them have respect for your fellow man when doing so.
This was eye-opening thread. Learned a lot of things.
Some questions came to mind.
1) A lot of the discussions involving God & Religions. If there was no religion, do you think this hate/discrimination would be escalated to these levels today? Whether it be towards homosexuality, racism etc.
2) As for the topic on homosexuality...going the scientific route...humans are considered a form of animals. As animals, one of the main ideas is to reproduce offspring and continue the life cycle of the species. Physically, I believe it's impossible to reproduce as a human male-male or female-female (correct me if I'm wrong). As we evolve, we do not physically have to reproduce and continue this so called "life cycle". Science has given us artificial insemination, couples can adpot, you choose not to have kids etc. As genes change from generation to generation, I think it is possible to be born a homosexual, but ultimately it could have started as a choice. Thoughts?
This was eye-opening thread. Learned a lot of things.
Some questions came to mind.
1) A lot of the discussions involving God & Religions. If there was no religion, do you think this hate/discrimination would be escalated to these levels today? Whether it be towards homosexuality, racism etc.
2) As for the topic on homosexuality...going the scientific route...humans are considered a form of animals. As animals, one of the main ideas is to reproduce offspring and continue the life cycle of the species. Physically, I believe it's impossible to reproduce as a human male-male or female-female (correct me if I'm wrong). As we evolve, we do not physically have to reproduce and continue this so called "life cycle". Science has given us artificial insemination, couples can adpot, you choose not to have kids etc. As genes change from generation to generation, I think it is possible to be born a homosexual, but ultimately it could have started as a choice. Thoughts?
On Thursday October 12 2006 The Natural History Museum, University of Oslo, opened the first-ever museum exhibition dedicated to gay animals.
Today we know that homosexuality is a common and widespread phenomenon in the animal world. Not only short-lived sexual relationships, but even long-lasting partnerships; partnerships that may last a lifetime.
The exhibit puts on display a small selection among the more than 1500 species where homosexuality have been observed. This fascinating story of the animals' secret life is told by means of models, photos, texts and specimens. The visitor will be confronted with all sorts of creatures from tiny insects to enormous spermwhales.
How can we know that an animal is homosexual? How can homosexual behaviour be consistent with what we have learned about evolution and darwinism?
Sadly, most museums have no traditions for airing difficult, concealed, and possibly controversial questions. Homosexuality is certainly such a question. We feel confident that a greater understanding of how extensive and common this behaviour is among animals, will help to de-mystify homosexuality among people. - At least, we hope to reject the all too well known argument that homosexual behaviour is a crime against nature."
......
Which animals are homosexual?
Homosexuality has been observed in most vertebrate groups, and also from insects, spiders, crustaceans, octopi and parasitic worms. The phenomenon has been reported from more than 1500 animal species, and is well documented for 500 of them, but the real extent is probably much higher.
The frequency of homosexuality varies from species to species. In some species, homosexuality has never been reported, while in others the entire species is bisexual. In zoos around 1 in 5 pairs of king penguins are of the same sex. The record is held by orange fronted parakeets, where roughly half of all pairs in captivity are of the same sex.
The Church Council of Nablus in 1120 AD wrote the first law where homosexuality was labelled a “Crime against Nature”. In the Renaissance, such texts found their way into the laws of many countries, leading to widespread oppression against homosexuality on the basis that it is “unnatural”.
We may have opinions on a lot of things, but one thing is clear: Homosexuality is found throughout the Animal Kingdom. It is not against nature.
This was eye-opening thread. Learned a lot of things.
Some questions came to mind.
1) A lot of the discussions involving God & Religions. If there was no religion, do you think this hate/discrimination would be escalated to these levels today? Whether it be towards homosexuality, racism etc.
Yes, I do, it's human nature to question things we don't know about, it's human nature to disagree and debate, and unfortunately it's human nature to hate as well as it is to love. Religion is both another topic to debate as well as it is an entity with a point of view on these topics of discussion. Although 'religion' as an entity has views on the topics you list those topics do not exist because of religion...and in a world without religion those things would still exist and us as humans would still debate.
Time to contribute as I love talking about this stuff. Here are my thoughts. It's going to sound like I'm going a bit off topic, but I should be able to wrap it up by the end..
Our lives are ruled by the social constructions that we, as a society, create. By "social constructions", I'm referring to the ways societies agree that reality should work. For example, in general, we as a society agree that the willful killing of one person by another is wrong. In Roman times, the willful killing of one person by another was called sport and a common aspect of that society.
In our times, we've constructed the reality that killing is wrong, whereas in Roman times, their reality was that killing can be considered sport.
Quite often, religion is the backbone of a large section of social constructions. A large group of people, commonly agree to a set of rules and, as more people join up, those rules form the basis for how a society thinks and lives together. Obviously, social constructions also exist in the absence of religion. For example, an atheist living in Canada will likely also agree that killing is wrong. This is because he's choosing to be a part of a society that has created this social construction, as it benefits everyone in that society to believe in this construction.
I accept that the concept of "killing people is wrong" is a social construction, but I'm willing to follow that construction, because it directly benefits me.
So, while social constructions often have a root in religion, it's a concept that's not just about the religious.
Realizing how deep social constructions go and understanding just how much they affect our lives is an important step in getting what I'm trying to say, so take a moment and see if you can wrap your head around the following statement...
"The concept of Good and Evil are simply social constructions."
If you can't grok this sentence, then take a day and think about it and come back and read the rest of the post later. As a society we tend to classify actions as degrees of good and evil. But, actions are just acts with no real meaning until we, as a society, assign meeting to it. There is no good or evil in the world until we construct it and surround ourselves with people that choose to agree with us.
If you can wrap your head around this statement, take a moment and see what else in your life is (or was) a social construction. Up until not to long ago, it was a social norm to keep black people as slaves. It's how things worked. Over time, this social construction has changed and so now it's not a social norm.
Socially constructed reality is an ongoing, dynamic process; reality is re-produced by people acting on their interpretations and knowledge of it.
I tend to find (not always of course), that this is a harder concept for people with deep religious convictions to get. The reason is simple; if they see that the laws that govern their religion are nothing but social constructions, then you have to consider the fact that god and the afterlife, might be also be one. That's scary!
Heading back to the original topic, what kind of social constructions exist today surrounding sexuality? If you answered a metric buttload, you'd be correct; Having sex with others while in a relationship is wrong, having sex with a 13 year old is wrong, having sex with the same gender is wrong, sex before marriage is wrong, etc, etc, etc.
It each case it's easy to find a society (or a sub-society of a society) currently living on this planet that goes against each statement and is, in fact, a social norm.
People's perceptions of sexuality are often coloured by their answer to a seemingly simple question; If you take away all the social constructions surrounding sexuality, what do you have left?
The most common answer you'll hear right away is reproduction. Reproduction is the bare-bones basis of sexuality. But, is this correct, or could reproduction be just another social construction?
And, if reproduction is just a social construction, then what is the basis of sexuality? Here's the last statement I'll try and get you to wrap your head around.
"If you take away all the layers of social construction surrounding sexuality, all that you have left is our natural, instinctual desire to feel pleasure."
Be careful with that sentence because there's a lot going on there. If you understand what that sentence is saying and you can honestly say to yourself, "You know. That kinda makes sense", it will start changing the way you think about the world and the people that live in it.
Also be very careful because, once the brain expands to accept new thoughts and ideas, it can never return to it's original size.
Comments
Christianity is not about following a set of rules. And it is about choices that we make. Like it or not we have Free Will, the ability to choose.
Because man broke God’s law and choose to disobey, the world be can to change. Death entered the word, death start the second law of thermal dynamics, everything is winding down and coming to an end.
God reveals Himself to us in 3 forums 1) His written Word – the Bible; 2) Creation- -we call this general revelation and the things of the world are of His revelation to make himself known to us Romans 1: 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
And number 3 Jesus of Nazareth made a claim to be God in John 1:1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
Verse 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
Now that is where it gets really interesting. This one verse separates Jesus from every other religious leader. No one would claim to be God that just would not make much sense. Jesus was either a Liar, or either a Lunatic, or He was who He said He was: King of Kings and Lord of Lord Who Is Coming Again!!
C. S. Lewis presented this argument over BBC radio and later in his seminal work Mere Christianity back in the 1940's. C. S. Lewis own words are worth repeating.
“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God." That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg - or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to. Page 55-56 of the above book
Follow the logic
The Lord, Liar, Lunatic Argument
JESUS CLAIMS TO BE GOD
2 paths can follow
Path One
A. Claims were false
B. two alternatives
1) He knew His claims were false, knew being the key word
2) He made deliberate misrepresentations
Conclusions: He was a liar
Path Two
A. He did not know His claims were false
B. He was sincerely deluded
C. Conclusions: He was a LUNATIC
The Lord, Liar, Lunatic Argument
JESUS CLAIMS TO BE GOD
Path One
A. Claims were true and you believe or
B. You can disbelieve
Either way you make the choice and are responsible for it today tomorrow or in the future.
I have chosen to believe, plain and simple. Some have chosen not to believe. Again God gave that FREE WILL. Contrary to those who think the Bible is a good book for guidelines on how to live in this world, it isn’t. It is about learning how to have a personal relationship with the creator himself Jesus Christ of Nazareth. All the history questions all the science questions can be answer, if you are willing to do the work. My beliefs in no way infringe on your right to choose to live, you live according the guidelines you to choice to live by.
Brent R.A. Wilson
As far as homosexuality and christianity and the room it seems I leave, let me clear it up.
There are good people "Christians" on both sides of this debate. Homosexuality is not for me. Nor do I think it is the norm. Does that mean I hate them? NO. When Tony Dungy finally beat New England, I said final he is in the Super Bowl. You know what I was hearing by black people? Tony Dundgy and Lovie Smith are the first BLACK HEAD COACHES in the SUPER BOWL.
Never once did it occur to me the colour of his skin.
Someone is gay, I believe it is his choice, does it mean that he can't come to church? Yes he can. You want to get into the science of fine, you want to get into the Philosophical argumement of God create me gay I can deal with it, but i think a forum like this is not the place. It is not my place to change the way people think. I desperately tired to get a girl I knew to believe the way I did. She ended up going to Vancover. I realized then, it is not my job, I cannot change peoples hearts. God changes the heart of the person willing to listen.
People are going to make there choice based on there environment, upbring, reading, knowledge acquired, popularity and many other things and form their own personal world view.
Mine starts at the top of my chart - Jesus is God - Creator and the King of Kings it then goes throught the revelation He has given us - His word, and with the guideance of the Holy Spirit whom He left behind to help us, I come to the conclusions I do. I believe He is in control, it is by His hands the world is being held together.
Do I think I am better than anyelse? No except by the grace of God, I have forgiveness that he offers everyone.
brent
Wow, what topic....this has to be, IMHO, one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever heard. I am well versed in saying the wrong thing at the wrong time but man, this kind of thinking is just plain wrong and could not be farther from the truth, you sir truly are ignorant.
I love reading all this debate it is very educating...for what it's worth I am uncomfortable with open signs of affection between people of the same sex, I think probably because of a few things, my lack of understanding, my upbringing (my father was extremely racist and blatant about it), and probably a little because, for now, it is not the norm...and please by no means do I mean it is not normal, I'm not sure if typed word can express what I mean but I think it is still treated by the masses as uncommon? That said who am I to think I am better then someone who is gay, we are different albeit equal, it is not up to me to judge, I have no right to judge. Eventhough it makes me uncomfortable to see signs of affection in public by same sex it also makes me uncomfortable seeing signs of affection in public by opposite sex partners (and I don't mean holding hands, or kissing, I mean more blatant stuff) BUT the display of love between ANY TWO creatures including man should not really bother me and certainly should not be questioned...do we all forget 'to each their own'? Ultimitely I have a choice to watch that video or not and I chose not to. We all have our own opinions and are entitled to them but what I have a real problem with is someone actively going out to find something they don't understand and then attacking it, which is what you did djalikool, which is very uncool. I also believe this is not a choice, it has been said that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.....what makes me perk up when I see my wife getting dressed up for a night out, it's something inside of me that I was born with...did I play with Barbies...damn right I wanted to see what was under their clothes....each person finds something different that they are attracted to and just because you don't understand how someone could find someone of the same sex attractive does not give you the right to make the comments you did. Everyone deserves to be happy and find love however they see fit, without judgement....happiness is something different for everyone!!! Similarly, I find myself slightly racist, I try daily to overcome this, I know it is wrong and I believe over the years I have 'improved' but growing up in a home being raised by a man who was extremely racist (toward one race in particular) has tainted me to this day, the first 10 years of ones life shapes the person you are I believe but I also believe people can change...and I strive everyday to NOT pass that down to my kids, with the help of my wife who is not racist in the least and very open-minded I think I am succeeding.
Further, I personally believe science answers all the questions I have but I do not pass judgement on someone who believes in a 'God', I don't agree with it, to me the bible is a nice work of fiction, but I certainly understand the whole idea that a 'God' must be responsible for things we don't understand...and I understand ones desire to believe in a 'higher power', however with the advances of science and the knowledge we have today of, say, something like evolution and how we are born I find it odd that people still say 'God made me', umm no, no, I believe your God had nothing to do with it? I'm not sure what point I'm making here now but I am starting to ramble....I think basically I wanted to say if you must judge someone, judge them on their actions, not their beliefs and if you must comment on someones beliefs or debate them have respect for your fellow man when doing so.
Some questions came to mind.
1) A lot of the discussions involving God & Religions. If there was no religion, do you think this hate/discrimination would be escalated to these levels today? Whether it be towards homosexuality, racism etc.
2) As for the topic on homosexuality...going the scientific route...humans are considered a form of animals. As animals, one of the main ideas is to reproduce offspring and continue the life cycle of the species. Physically, I believe it's impossible to reproduce as a human male-male or female-female (correct me if I'm wrong). As we evolve, we do not physically have to reproduce and continue this so called "life cycle". Science has given us artificial insemination, couples can adpot, you choose not to have kids etc. As genes change from generation to generation, I think it is possible to be born a homosexual, but ultimately it could have started as a choice. Thoughts?
http://www.nhm.uio.no/againstnature/index.html
Learned behaviour?
Against nature?
The Church Council of Nablus in 1120 AD wrote the first law where homosexuality was labelled a “Crime against Nature”. In the Renaissance, such texts found their way into the laws of many countries, leading to widespread oppression against homosexuality on the basis that it is “unnatural”.
We may have opinions on a lot of things, but one thing is clear: Homosexuality is found throughout the Animal Kingdom. It is not against nature.
RE: the argument that sexual desires is a mechanism for procreation and offspring...
Umm... then why is oral / anal / mutual masterbation sex so damned popular?
Mark
Yes, I do, it's human nature to question things we don't know about, it's human nature to disagree and debate, and unfortunately it's human nature to hate as well as it is to love. Religion is both another topic to debate as well as it is an entity with a point of view on these topics of discussion. Although 'religion' as an entity has views on the topics you list those topics do not exist because of religion...and in a world without religion those things would still exist and us as humans would still debate.
Our lives are ruled by the social constructions that we, as a society, create. By "social constructions", I'm referring to the ways societies agree that reality should work. For example, in general, we as a society agree that the willful killing of one person by another is wrong. In Roman times, the willful killing of one person by another was called sport and a common aspect of that society.
In our times, we've constructed the reality that killing is wrong, whereas in Roman times, their reality was that killing can be considered sport.
Quite often, religion is the backbone of a large section of social constructions. A large group of people, commonly agree to a set of rules and, as more people join up, those rules form the basis for how a society thinks and lives together. Obviously, social constructions also exist in the absence of religion. For example, an atheist living in Canada will likely also agree that killing is wrong. This is because he's choosing to be a part of a society that has created this social construction, as it benefits everyone in that society to believe in this construction.
I accept that the concept of "killing people is wrong" is a social construction, but I'm willing to follow that construction, because it directly benefits me.
So, while social constructions often have a root in religion, it's a concept that's not just about the religious.
Realizing how deep social constructions go and understanding just how much they affect our lives is an important step in getting what I'm trying to say, so take a moment and see if you can wrap your head around the following statement...
"The concept of Good and Evil are simply social constructions."
If you can't grok this sentence, then take a day and think about it and come back and read the rest of the post later. As a society we tend to classify actions as degrees of good and evil. But, actions are just acts with no real meaning until we, as a society, assign meeting to it. There is no good or evil in the world until we construct it and surround ourselves with people that choose to agree with us.
If you can wrap your head around this statement, take a moment and see what else in your life is (or was) a social construction. Up until not to long ago, it was a social norm to keep black people as slaves. It's how things worked. Over time, this social construction has changed and so now it's not a social norm.
Socially constructed reality is an ongoing, dynamic process; reality is re-produced by people acting on their interpretations and knowledge of it.
I tend to find (not always of course), that this is a harder concept for people with deep religious convictions to get. The reason is simple; if they see that the laws that govern their religion are nothing but social constructions, then you have to consider the fact that god and the afterlife, might be also be one. That's scary!
Heading back to the original topic, what kind of social constructions exist today surrounding sexuality? If you answered a metric buttload, you'd be correct; Having sex with others while in a relationship is wrong, having sex with a 13 year old is wrong, having sex with the same gender is wrong, sex before marriage is wrong, etc, etc, etc.
It each case it's easy to find a society (or a sub-society of a society) currently living on this planet that goes against each statement and is, in fact, a social norm.
People's perceptions of sexuality are often coloured by their answer to a seemingly simple question; If you take away all the social constructions surrounding sexuality, what do you have left?
The most common answer you'll hear right away is reproduction. Reproduction is the bare-bones basis of sexuality. But, is this correct, or could reproduction be just another social construction?
And, if reproduction is just a social construction, then what is the basis of sexuality? Here's the last statement I'll try and get you to wrap your head around.
"If you take away all the layers of social construction surrounding sexuality, all that you have left is our natural, instinctual desire to feel pleasure."
Be careful with that sentence because there's a lot going on there. If you understand what that sentence is saying and you can honestly say to yourself, "You know. That kinda makes sense", it will start changing the way you think about the world and the people that live in it.
Also be very careful because, once the brain expands to accept new thoughts and ideas, it can never return to it's original size.