For your sake, I hope there are no homosexual members on this forum, because calling this video "disturbing" and posting something like this is extremely prejudice and will probably anger some people.
Seriously... a collection of pictures of human beings expressing love for one another is disturbing? Just because they're the same sex? THIS warrants a post about being disturbing? In the last month alone, through random news outlets and internet "viral video" sites, I have seen / heard
- A man dumping his girlfriend on radio to embarass her
- Numerous videos of people breaking bones in creative ways
- Gang fights
- War clips
- The hanging of Saddam Hussein (CNN!)
- A report that one of Saddam's right-hand men were hung, and it was deemed necessary to point out that the man's head was actually severed from his body due to the "procedure"
- Numerous videos portraying the mentally ill for amusement.
Dammit, what is wrong with this fucking planet?
For those interested, and to upkeep the song theme, here's one that I've currently come across that the lyrics are phenomenal at pointing out the craziness of stupid people, and heaven help us, there are a lot of you out there.
Artist/Band: Snider Todd Lyrics for Song: Ballad Of The Kingsmen Lyrics for Album: East Nashville Skyline
The Kingsmen came together in a garage,
They could hardly even play
But they practiced night
And day pretty soon they got to where they could really play that song Louie,
Louie
So, they saved up all the money from the shows,
Went in to one of them studios and gave their version of the song a try
Now, I don't know the words to that song Louie,
Louie and I'm pretty sure the singer for the
Kingsmen didn't know ‘em either,
If he did know ‘em he didn't get ‘em right on the record
Cause on the record they sound jumbled in his jaw? It says,
Me think of me girl oh so constantly
Ahmayaaah makaaaah aahh ooohoooh aaaaah
Well, that last part scared everybody from the PTA to the FBI
You see, the kids had been going kind of crazy lately
And it seemed like nobody could figure out why,
So they decided to form a coalition,
Launch an investigation, you know for the children, they at least had to try
To figure out the words to Louie, Louie
Chorus
It's the feel good hit of this endless summer
It gets these kids out of control
Singin along to that star spangled bummer,
Hail, hail rock and roll
Marilyn Manson’s real name isn't even Marilyn Manson,
He's a skinny public high school Kid from Florida,
Not some monster from out of this world and like of a lot other skinny long hair public
High school kids he was sick of getting
Beaten up by the pulling guard all week only to go out on the weekend,
And watch the Quarterback get all the girls so,
He formed a band man
Now' he gets all the girls,
A few years later a couple of latchkey kids go tragically
Mad and everybody's standing around the television store at the mall trying to figure out what went wrong,
This guy says,
You think the life of a kid going to high school could've gotten so bad this other guy says nah,
It's just the words to one of them goddamn Marilyn Manson songs,
You know the one
Chorus
You know, every ten years or so our country and some other little country,
We start firing all of our newest weapons
At each other for some reason or another, right or wrong,
Like it or not, it happens, and when it happens
People get shot and when people get shot,
They show it on tv a lot every night at six o clock
And you don't even have to be eighteen to see it you don't even have to be in first grade,
First grade where they teach the kid pride
They tell him he'll need to thrive,
In a world where only the strong will survive,
So he's taught the art of more
To compare to and to keep score Monday thru Friday while
He stares at the floor til' Sunday they make him go to
School once more only this time they make him wear a suit and a tie
And listen to some guy who claims to know Where people go
When they die tell him that only the meek are gonna inherit the earth Well shit,
By this time the kid doesn't know what anything
Is worth, now brothers and sisters I am only one guy
And I don't even know the words to that song Louie,
Louie but I can tell you right now without batting an eye
That the next time some latchkey kid goes wrong
It aint gonna be cause that Eminem gets to say the word Fag in his song
And I'm not trying to preach to ya either,
I'm just trying to sing to ya too, you know string a few words together
I didn't bother watching, since this thread seems to indicate I'd agree with Ali. However, posting something like this shows an extreme lack of common sense. While you may dislike the video or homosexuality in general, starting this thread does nothing but provoke a response, and most of them will be negative (as has already been shown). I don't disagree with your views, but posting this was stupid.
Seriously... a collection of pictures of human beings expressing love for one another is disturbing? Just because they're the same sex?
...
Yes, it is disturbing (which is why I choose not to even click on the link). While it may be surprising to some, there are still some of us who do find this offensive. I won't post why I feel this way here (that only causes flame wars) but I have no problem discussing this in person. In fact, I did discuss this with DrTyore at a tournament (with many others), and while we choose to disagree, that doesn't invalidate my view (or his). Some of my conversations with Mark (and Shannon) have shown that people can have diametrically opposing views and values, and still discuss it in an open and respectful way. I consider Mark a very good friend, despite the fact that we agree on very little outside of poker (but that just makes the conversations more interesting), and we both still think the other is wrong .
I do find it extremely amusing that finding homosexuality abhorrent is "intolerant", but the same people making these accusations are demonstrating an obvious intolerance of a persons personal and/or religious beliefs, but don't consider their own intolerance to be a problem. For example:
Why is one form of tolerance socially acceptable and another form is considered wrong? The discrimination is still there... A person can "open their mind" and still disagree with you.
Being a homosexual isn't a conscious choice, finding them "offensive" or "disturbing" or "abhorrent" is. I have zero tolerance for ignorance and bigotry in any form. He wouldn't dare post on here and say a video of an interracial marriage is "disturbing" would he?...I would hope not. He'd be less than wise to make a post bashing jewish people [ask Mel] or calling black people the N word [ask Kramer]. Want to talk about socailly unacceptable... where does HATE come into that?
This is your opinion and is supported by some scientific research. I am of the opinion that it IS a choice, and this is also supported by other (conflicting) research. So your belief (and mine) on "why" has a big influence on our opinion of whether it is acceptable.
I have zero tolerance for ignorance and bigotry in any form.
Unless I am misunderstanding, you are implying that disagreeing with your view is "ignorant". I don't believe somebody who finds homosexuality acceptable is ignorant or stupid - I think they simply choose to believe different things than I do, both on a "philosophical" level as well as which evidence they choose to accept/reject. Is this not more tolerant than a blanket statement that those whose views differ from yours are ignorant bigots? Or is that type of intolerance and stereotyping somehow more acceptable?
This is a very touchy subject but one that needs to be addressed. I understand that some people disagree with homosexuality and I don't hold anything against them for it. I disagree with their opinion to the nth degree but I don't hold it against them.
If someone choses to broadcast their feelings about calling it sick and wrong is another matter. It is offensive as it would be to denounce any religion, ethnicity or heritage. This world we live in is the way it is due to intolerance and closed mindedness. And by closed mindedness I mean the lack of the ability to accept that people are different.
To djalikool. By posting this message you are letting everyone know that you hate homosexual behaviour. Good for you. Why do I or anyone else need to know this? Express your hate elsewhere. I don't want to see it or hear it.
Homosexuals, transgenders, transvestites and bi-sexual people are humans. You should treat them as such. They live, love, laugh and breathe as you do. They should be respected and loved for the same reasons you would expect the same.
I don't think we'll need to alert the presses or that anyone I've played will die of shock here ..I'm bisexual, and I'm sticking in my two cents worth.
This is your opinion and is supported by some scientific research. I am of the opinion that it IS a choice, and this is also supported by other (conflicting) research.
This is not a point for debate Beanie, we are born. I can assure you that. Despite going to church every Sunday- at 6 I was looking up my teacher's skirt at storytime with the boys, and as a teenager my bestfriend (a lesbian) and I were intimitately related. You need only to look at the impulses and drives of children to know, surely you can not doubt their/our motives.
Unless I am misunderstanding, you are implying that disagreeing with your view is "ignorant". I don't believe somebody who finds homosexuality acceptable is ignorant or stupid - I think they simply choose to believe different things than I do, both on a "philosophical" level as well as which evidence they choose to accept/reject. Is this not more tolerant than a blanket statement that those whose views differ from yours are ignorant bigots? Or is that type of intolerance and stereotyping somehow more acceptable?
Spot on, that type of intolerance IS more acceptable..because it is intolerance of ..your intolerance.
You tell me Beanie, What right have you to be in MY or any other Gay/Bi/Lesbian..hell even Straight and consenting person's bedroom, which is where you'd need to be in order to make such a statement as homosexuality may be unacceptable?
When 700 Huntley street starts cross-Canada motorcycle crusades as they did when gay marriage was the hot topic...you cannot sit idly behind a declaration that it's your 'right' to have an opinion. Gay persons are not a 'philosophical' issue on which you wax poetic in a passive way- we are living breathing entities with desires and rights. On that point you (and your religion) are actively OPPRESSING me and people like me.
Simply because you didn't hop on a bike and drive with them does NOT exhonerate you- if you are willing to use terms like "offensive" and "abhorrent."
You're like an armchair racist...you didn't set a cross on fire in my front yard but you are supporting hate and intolerance. You have NO RIGHT, religious or otherwise to make public statements condemning my innate qualities.
There is a big jump from disapproval to hate. I too have a big problem with hate, regardless of who it is directed against.
Live those words Beanie, they look pretty here on the forum..but they do not jive with the reality.
The bible may have been written by god's chosen vessels, but they were still human and therefore not without flaw. I'm sure there are many passages that are debatable, is it so much to ask that you look at the reality that gay people exist and feel entitled to be and free? It never ceases to amaze me when intelligent people like yourself can be so blind. Here's an exercise, pick a hate- racism, sexism.. whatever and look at those most adamant ..you'd be amazed how many can hide behind the bible. Read a KKK member's website, hear him quote the bible and then you'll understand why you're met with such hostility regarding your 'views' on homosexuality. The two of you in the same school of thinking.
Short form: Beanie, (and DJalikool) you are wrong, no if's and's or but's about it. You are actively oppressing people like me, you fill our lives with shame and fear and hurt, everytime you support or further this nonsense. How does your God feel about people who do that?
This is not a point for debate Beanie, we are born. I can assure you that. D [/b]
Nonsense! Who the hell are you to get up on your soapbox (..yet again) and claim to speak for all non hetorosexuals?
I'll do the obligitory preface here, I have many,many lesbian friends and many more lesbian aquantices. Good friends of ours. Why?, My wife has played Womens hockey for a dozen years and I've coached for 10 of those years in a very sociable and gay posotive league. Most players in the league head out to the bar after every Saturday game, weekend trny's out of town, summer pool parties, we've had some of our very good lesbian friends up to the cottage several times....etc...conversation flows..
So well most are 'born' as you put it...a good few of the lesbians I know have made it clear in no uncertain terms it is a lifestyle CHOICE!
So while I am gay posotive as far as women go, don't know any gay men that I know of....
Your blanket statement is BS. You do not speak for everyone.
wow! I don't know where to begin with that comment.
I'm sure straight woman wake up all the time and say "You know what? I'm not a big fan of the woman esthetic, but I'll lick her junk just to have someone who will hold my hand through "The Notebook."
Perhaps a bisexual woman might not consider a man for a partner (and you're a shining example of why we would) but that does NOT make it a choice to be gay.
Are black people born black? Is THAT a blanket statement too?
Allow me to point out that -it is the fact that a SINGLE gay person born negates the entire religious argument. If God makes one lonely little homo, you must accept that it is not a fault- and since you've conceded that point already I thank you for endorsing my argument.
We ARE born, whether all or one...take the rest up with your God in his infinite knowledge.
What your point is I have no idea, but you've dodged the issue that for some ...It is a lifestyle choice. What's the problem with that?
I really don't understand how sexuality can be a lifestyle choice. Could you please elaborate on the discussion(s) you've had with your friends that lead you to this understanding?
No. You CREATED the idea that I stated it. Look back at your orginal quote and kindly note that I said "we are born" not "we are ALL born" I would agree that we are mostly born.
You've made no argument and a few weak insults. Where are you headed with this and in what way can I help further acceptance and understanding through information?
I really don't understand how sexuality can be a lifestyle choice. Could you please elaborate on the discussion(s) you've had with your friends that lead you to this understanding?
/g2
without geting into deatails...a couple bad/abusive relationshps with men, some women may seek alternatives.
No. You CREATED the idea that I stated it. Look back at your orginal quote and kindly note that I said "we are born" not "we are ALL born" I would agree that we are mostly born.
You've made no argument and a few weak insults. Where are you headed with this and in what way can I help further acceptance and understanding through information?
I don't know, I guess I picked apart part of your post because you picked apart all of Beanie's post. I'd really rather chat poker good night and good luck.
If you're that upset over what total strangers are doing in the bedroom, you should really examine what else is going on in the world
If you think being gay is a lifestyle choice, tell me when you "chose" to be straight... I don't remember that moment in my life.
Beanie42: I consider him and his family my friends. I have much love for the Cook Crew, and respect his opinions on many many matters. The fact that we have differing points of view on several topics means nothing to me. I disagree with my closest friends on many things. BUT... beanie42 has his beliefs, and he has never tried to enforce his values and beliefs upon me. As he mentioned, we have discussed this issue (the "Brokeback mountain debate"), and although I disagree with him, I have no doubt that he would never attempt to force his beliefs upon another. If you ask him, yes, he will tell you his opinions...
But... if you truly believe in freedom of speech, you have to be willing to listen to someone basicaly s#it on everything you hold dear, and be able to say "although I disagree, I think you should be able to say it".
My post basically says only that I am shocked at the effort and vehemence that people put into subjects that quite frankly non-applicable to them... I thin ki have another posssible Todd Snider quote that is appropriate, but well, anyone that doesn't know better won't appreciate it anyways.
EDIT: FWIW as well, after re-reading beanie's 1st post I do agree with him that there are forms of intolerance that are considered righteous oddly enough, and that is unacceptable too... I hope that my original post didn't come off as slamming anyone.... I'm just pointing out that there are many many more things in the world to be dismayed by. If you're against homosexuality, well, I'm not going to want to argue with you. Beanie and I talked about why he holds his views, and quite frankly I respect them - IMO he does not hold them from a place of fear or hatred, and THAT is what bothers me, irrationality, which leads to stupid people. If you put a hate on someone without really understanding why, well, how does that make sense at all, be it anti-gay or be it overly righteous behaviour... people don't really like to think anymore, and that's a shame.
First off, I would like to state that freedom of speech is the most important right I feel I have as a citizen of this world. An opinion is an opinion, no matter how ignorant, rude, blind or misinformed it is. However, with our freedom to speak our minds comes a responsibility to use them. To further explain this point I will use an age old saying; the old saying says, 'my right to swing my arm stops where your nose begins'. I am allowed to swing my arms, but when swinging my arms hurts another person or group of people, I should re-evaluate what is more important. The right to swing my arms, or the rights of the people being hurt by swinging my arms.
With my lifestyle I have no place for religion in my life. I talk to God sometimes, and for the most part think s/he sort of likes me. I grew up a Christian, in a Catholic church. I took Religion (World Religion) all through high school and another course in University. The Golden Rule throughout all religions is, in so many words, 'do unto others as you would like done onto you'. Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, Confucists et al, believe in those words. But if you speak to a devout believer in any of the top 10 religions many of they have a hypocritical approach when talking about homosexuals.
I've been searching for a reason as to why these people of God can have such a distaste for the people God created. I personally believe that is does not have to do with science. Christians are so easy to cling to and believe in miracles from 2000 years ago. They believe a miracle man was born to a virgin, healed people with his hands, rose from the dead and open the gates to a place, no one even knows exists until they die. It is entirely possible that this happened. But there is no proof but what is in your heart.
When a group of physically present HUMAN BEINGS, who are living today, standing all around you, are saying, 'With your thoughts and beliefs you fill our lives with shame and fear and hurt'. I think you can safely say that the proverbial Christian arm is swinging wildly and is not stopping short of the homosexual's face. Ten of thousands of homosexual/bisexual people have plead with society that they did not choose to be the way they are. There are 100's of studies in which gay people have volunteered to be tested and researched just to prove that they have a right to be treated as equals.
Any good debater looks at all sides of an argument and I understand that for Christians (and lets not generalize anymore, Beanie et al) you have a lifetime of stereotyping and prejudice spoon feeding to overcome. So I sympathize that it is your first instinct to say, 'there are conflicting studies'. The fact is, there are conflicting studies to most everything. But in this case there are living, breathing, loving, tax paying people of this earth, begging you to believe them when they say that they did not choose to be the way they are. They are children of God Beanie, and ergo entitled to the basic rights and freedoms as such.
You have no outs Beanie, you ARE drawing dead, these posts are on a public forum and, therefore, OPPRESSIVE.
Any good debater looks at all sides of an argument and I understand that for Christians (and lets not generalize anymore, Beanie et al) you have a lifetime of stereotyping and prejudice spoon feeding to overcome.
You have no outs Beanie, you ARE drawing dead, these posts are on a public forum and, therefore, OPPRESSIVE.
This is your version of having an open mind and being tolerant? Attacking my religion and me personally without even knowing what I actually believe? You are attacking your stereotype of what I think without taking the time to actually understand it. Forget understanding, you haven't even asked - instead you've made the blanket statement that "you have no outs". If that is tolerance than I will happily stay intolerant - it seems much more rational.
I won't post why I feel this way here (that only causes flame wars) but I have no problem discussing this in person.
As I've said in this thread and others (and has been shown historically on this and other forums) there is way too much misunderstanding and lost information discussing stuff like this through e-communication.
Kristy/Josh - you do have the "freedom of speech" to continue flaming me here if you wish. However, if you actually want to discuss this rationally in person, PM or call me - I'll even buy the coffee . I'm not naive enough to think we will agree after talking, but maybe I'll understand your view a bit better and learn something. You guys might even feel differently about my opinions after actually hearing them, and if not, at least you'll have a basis for hating me and calling me a racist. However, I'm not going to bother replying to the "tolerance" you 2 are spouting against me here.
It never ceases to amaze me when intelligent people like yourself can be so blind.
Beanie, I have enjoyed your company at the table several times now. I am NOT 'hating' you. Nor am I attacking a 'stereotype' of your religion. I attended St. Timothy's and Northside Community church on my own for years. I was also a missionary cadet as a child. I took the lead in my church drama club and choir and was an active member who used to consider myself a 'christian' and fully invested in the religion.
I don't see how you can arrive at the conclusion that YOU are being attacked, but if you'd be so kind as to attempt to approach this debate from my perspective, I believe you will see that, I was BORN into this fight..you choose to have it. The only option I have is to not allow this mindset of Djalikool to bother me..but the idea of giving up on people doesn't sit well and that includes not giving up on you.
And so, I very much look forward to having the debate with you in person. The bible is a very good book, full of ideas that could improve many lives-but it is not the only guideline by which one should gage right and wrong.
I hope Beanie that I will be able to convince you that YOU are not in, anyway being attacked, and with respect and fairness have no right to be on the defensive. I said earlier- I was born into this fight. I must defend my right to live, love, marry, adopt. You are defending your religion's ability to deny me those rights. Homophobic sentiment IS an attack, and I am not now-nor have I been denying that I am 100% intolerant of intolerance.
Might be off topic here, but why did CBS get sued when Janet showed her nipple, but CITYTV shows 3 hours of the Gay Pride Parade with minimum of 40 sets of boobs being flashed, in the afternoon on the longest street in Canada (where children maybe around) and it's aired on a Saturday afternoon, sametime as pokemon?!?!
I really think people choose to be Gay. I don't think people are born with it. It's your upbringing that makes one choose your sexuality. If I have a son and I let him play with Barbies and her friends at the age of 5 will that make him a player? I might aswell sign him up for Ballet. I just think it's a choice. If we were born with it, then why is it not in any religious book, no reference of it anywhere. Why is the Catholic Church against such behavior? God loves everyone, don't get me wrong. But I think god knows what he is doing, and made everyone equal. People chose it amoung themselves to be gay.
I for one would be against gay marriages. In today's society, you have to think about other affects it will have, other then standing up for equal rights. Think about this, how many times were you made fun of as a kid at school cuz' u dressed a certain way, or you wore your hair a certain way. Now as today's youth are growing up, people are being harrased even killed because of there sexuality. Back to my example: Gay people will want kids, how will that effect them scholasticly? They will be made fun of, because they have 2 dads. Why make someone else suffer?
In conclusion, just like abortion it is disturbing but also a choice.
I really think people choose to be Gay. I don't think people are born with it. It's your upbringing that makes one choose your sexuality. If I have a son and I let him play with Barbies and her friends at the age of 5 will that make him a player? I might aswell sign him up for Ballet. I just think it's a choice. If we were born with it, then why is it not in any religious book, no reference of it anywhere. Why is the Catholic Church against such behavior? God loves everyone, don't get me wrong. But I think god knows what he is doing, and made everyone equal. People chose it amoung themselves to be gay.
So by your argument, all kids whose parents sign them up for hockey year after year will grow into professional hockey players.
Dam my parents
I agree with Kristy, it is NOT a choice. I have many gay firends (and family members too) and to say it's a choice is a bit far fetched. Really who would say that "I choose to be ridiculed/assaulted/denied my rights"
Honestly dj, your lack of awareness and your ignorance is appalling. You are making blanket statements based on zero research and zero findings. Yes, people are entitled to opinions but when their opinions go against proven fact, you can have a wrong opinion. If I told you a pair of Kings beat three Aces I'd be wrong.
I don't believe the bible makes any reference to people being born with blonde hair vs red hair or some people are taller than others or that I have blue eyes and my son has grey eyes. It happens. The bible also does not mention the existance of dinosaurs but they existed nonetheless.
Go ahead and be against gay marriage (I disagree with you), think that homosexuality is a sin (again I disagree) but don't show hate for other humans based on sexual preference. As you wouldn't hate someone for being Muslim or being Catholic. I'm not asking you to be their friend but don't oppress them.
So many things in this thread that I either vehemently disagree with, or feel a need to say something, and point form will work best... please, I'm begging anyone who reads this, THINK before reacting, and I hope you all know me well enough that I mean no disrespect or insult.
- Kristy and Haddon: In almost all the issues being discussed, I feel that I am mostly in agreement with you two, however, there have been statements that seem to stem from a place of ignorance at the moment with regards to beanie42 (though I'm sure the "if you're on the internet, misunderstandings and virutal bravado increase ten-fold" effect is somewhat responsible). I've no doubt that Trevor feels he is right, no more than we feel we are. However, by writing things such as we've seen in this thread without simply asking beanie42 why he feels as he does, that is unfair as well. I've talked with him about this, and though I don't necessarily agree, I can respect why he feels as he does, and I further respect the fact that he does not (in my opinion) try to force his opinions on others, in fact, Trevor and Jenn are of those few "religious" people whom I fully appreciate because they live by all of what their faith believes. They treat everyone with the utmost respect and love, and for that I am truly glad to know them, and quite frankly love the way that they live their lives. They do live by your analogy of "I can swing my arms until it gets to your nose".
- djalikool: CBS got sued because they did not meet the broadcasting standards requirments, whereby they would notify viewers of potential nudity / adult situations. They did NOT get sued for showing a boob. Watch any show and the little rating box comes up - any adult situations shows (CityTv >1a.m.) also have the obligatory "Warning.. the following program...". As for the fact that the gay pride parade is broadcast, well, let's put it this way... I'd rather a child of mine see bare breasts before a violent murder, a mutilated corpse, or a scene of severe beatings (eg. CSI, which is on about 1,389 times a day).
- djalikool (again) explain to me how upbringing causes homosexuality? Where did the first homosexual learn from then? Can you show me the book that teaches how to raise a straight child? Never mind the fact that most ballet dancers (male) are straight (and think about it this way, their job is to dance closely with and be physical with women day in and day out, yet they're considered "fairies", yet pro-wrestlers are tough guys for getting sweaty with other men while wearing spandex) Would you assume that the entire Canada women's hockey team are lesbians? What about females employed in traditionally male jobs (construction, welders, etc.)? What about gay football/hockey/baseball players (yup, they're out there)? As I said in my last post, THINK. You are saying things that quite frankly are ignorant, and beyond ignorant, illogical and irrational, which in my opinion is probably the greatest misuse of a beautiful thing called the human brain.
- djalikool (again): You are right; kids do horrible things to one another in school. I was consistantly mocked and picked on, and beaten up in school. Was it because I had gay parents? No, I came from your typical family. Did I dress funny? Not really, in fact, I was a pretty average kid, just not "cool". If you want to think of this situation logically, would it not make sense then to attempt to rectify the fact that our children are mocking and attacking others for circumstances beyond their control? How does turning a blind eye to something that is wrong solve anything? Instead of "They will be made fun of, because they have 2 dads. Why make someone else suffer?", we should be asking "Where are our children learning that it is okay to look down on someone else, or to persecute them for it? How can we fix THAT?" I love to quote people because anything I think has likely been expressed better than I could, so here's one more... I would rather light a candle than curse the darkness.
- Gay marriage: Forty odd years ago, the idea of a mixed-race relationship was unheard of! Imagine the poor children who have been produced who have a white father and a black mother! Shocking! An oriental man and a latino woman? Insane I tell you! And before anyone breaks out the "well, if a child is to be well adjusted, they need a mother and a father", that doesn't fly - look at all the single parent situations where the kids are fine. In my line of work, I see a lot of the "troubled" kids, and I can tell you now, yes, most of their problems originate from the parents, mom or dad, or both. Not because they're poor / of a certain race / age / sexuality, but because they are bad parents - enablers, overbearing, "Trying to be their friend", etc.
- "In today's society, you have to think about other affects it will have, other then standing up for equal rights". In my opinion, there is rarely a better cause than to challenge inequality. "All that is required for evil to be victorious is for good men to do nothing".
- djalikool (man... just.. wow) - God: God does know what God is doing - we don't. And by the way, references to homosexuality are found in literature dating back as far as ancient greece and further (i.e. before JC and the boys). I again challenge you, tell me what moment in your life did you choose to be straight? Would this not mean that at any given moment you could choose to be gay? What did your parents do to ensure your heterosexuality?
- A final request and in my opinion the secret - especially to you djalikool - believe what you want, but believe it because it makes sense to you. You will have my full respect if you can tell me why you feel the way you do about something because of well thought out, logical, rational reasons. If you can't give these reasons, you're not thinking at all, and that is probably the greatest sin of all.
- A final thought: the song in the video wasn't that good to start with anyways
Trevor and Jenn are of those few "religious" people whom I fully appreciate because they live by all of what their faith believes. They treat everyone with the utmost respect and love, ....
...They do live by your analogy of "I can swing my arms until it gets to your nose".
Yes, it is disturbing (which is why I choose not to even click on the link). While it may be surprising to some, there are still some of us who do find this offensive.
To those that say it is not a choice. Reflect on this. Some people are born black. They are black people. They will always be black people barring action to the contrary (Michael Jackson). Therefore their being black is something that they had no choice in.
Personal example: A friend of mine has a black mother and a black father, and not so coincedentally, he is black.
On the other hand you have people who are alcoholics. They also many times are born with genes that will cause the tendency for them to become alcoholics. But I wouldn't say that they are alcoholics if they never touch alcohol.
Another personal example: Another of my friends has a grandfather that is an alcoholic. His uncle sadly is an alcoholic as well. He too unfortunately is an alcoholic. His mother on the other hand has NEVER touched alcohol in her life. I could not refer to her as an alocoholic even though she may have the genetic tendency to become one.
Similarily I believe their are physical attributes one cannot say are a choice. However behaviourial attributes are a matter of choice.
I disagree strongly, but that is an interesting and well put point roketinpoket.
You didn't specifically state your position re: homosexuality. I'm curious where you stand in this?
A sociology professor I had defined sexuality as something like a triangle: with the area representing the human population. The three points representing those who are exclusively gay, straight, and completely equally bi-sexual. You'll note that the majority of the area is found inbetween these three points and so too would the human population.
I would argue that what you are commenting on, and where nurture steps in and nature steps out is in the level to which a person in the biggest section of the triangle makes a decision to endorse or deny their homosexual (or heterosexual) tendencies. Maybe one woman has lesbian fantasies, and finds women appealing, but never acts on this. I would consider her to be a born bi-sexual woman, who has chosen to lead a straight life. Do you see the distinction?
Edit: My objective was to show here that gay people are not deviating from the straight life, much less doing it by choice. I'm not sure if it is clear that what I am suggesting is that it is not black and white but rather most of us would be varying shades of gay ..oops gray.
As kristy said rocketinpocket, that was a great response...
The "Nature vs. Nurture" debate is a big one, and in fact, many psychological studies on identical twins and homosexuality have had confounding results (i.e. one twin self identified as gay while the other straight). However, there are obviously external variables that come into play: the fear of coming out / being exposed (or as the kids are apparantly calling it, being "Lanced"), hatred and bigotry, and all the other "stupid people" things that have come up in this thread.
Though, using your theory of genetic dispositioning towards homosexuality, then perhaps (based on my entry-level recollection of genetics), homosexuality is a non-dominant trait, one that is "over-ridden" by the "Straight gene"... but again, that would equate a homosexual person with someone having brown eyes due to the lack of dominant blue-eye genes... back to "born with it".
The nature / nurtue combo you use with regards to alcoholism is different than what I just typed though, but isn't it interesting that we're more tolerant of alcoholics? We call it an affliction, and say these people need help, but only because of the emotional, social, and financial / medical damage alcoholism does.
Athletic prowess is at least partially genetically encoded, but proper nurturing is also responsible for these high-perfomance athletes (not all tall people are basketball players, just because you have horrible hair doens't mean you play hockey ). They make the choice to hit the gym repeatedly, or train in their activity of choice. Much the same could be argued for musical abilities, intelligence, etc.
If homosexuality is akin to these genetic dispositions, why would people on one side claim it to be a choice and on another side claim full genetics? Something I want to think more on before posting...
Oh... this reminds me.... as a psychology major I did a project in my course on "Behaviour". We got to pick a topic, and I took homosexuality. Just an FYI for djalikool, homosexual tendencies ranging from simple sexual acts (e.g. mutual masturbation, anal / oral sex) as well as longer term social bonding (life-partnering, co-parenting behaviour) has been observed, documented, and reproduced in both artificial and natural situation among EVERY animal family on the planet. This means that scientists have verified same-sex relationships on multiple levels and forms among every animal from insects to humans, fish to birds, and everything in between.
Comments
For your sake, I hope there are no homosexual members on this forum, because calling this video "disturbing" and posting something like this is extremely prejudice and will probably anger some people.
Not Cool
Seriously... a collection of pictures of human beings expressing love for one another is disturbing? Just because they're the same sex? THIS warrants a post about being disturbing? In the last month alone, through random news outlets and internet "viral video" sites, I have seen / heard
- A man dumping his girlfriend on radio to embarass her
- Numerous videos of people breaking bones in creative ways
- Gang fights
- War clips
- The hanging of Saddam Hussein (CNN!)
- A report that one of Saddam's right-hand men were hung, and it was deemed necessary to point out that the man's head was actually severed from his body due to the "procedure"
- Numerous videos portraying the mentally ill for amusement.
Dammit, what is wrong with this fucking planet?
For those interested, and to upkeep the song theme, here's one that I've currently come across that the lyrics are phenomenal at pointing out the craziness of stupid people, and heaven help us, there are a lot of you out there.
Artist/Band: Snider Todd
Lyrics for Song: Ballad Of The Kingsmen
Lyrics for Album: East Nashville Skyline
The Kingsmen came together in a garage,
They could hardly even play
But they practiced night
And day pretty soon they got to where they could really play that song Louie,
Louie
So, they saved up all the money from the shows,
Went in to one of them studios and gave their version of the song a try
Now, I don't know the words to that song Louie,
Louie and I'm pretty sure the singer for the
Kingsmen didn't know ‘em either,
If he did know ‘em he didn't get ‘em right on the record
Cause on the record they sound jumbled in his jaw? It says,
Me think of me girl oh so constantly
Ahmayaaah makaaaah aahh ooohoooh aaaaah
Well, that last part scared everybody from the PTA to the FBI
You see, the kids had been going kind of crazy lately
And it seemed like nobody could figure out why,
So they decided to form a coalition,
Launch an investigation, you know for the children, they at least had to try
To figure out the words to Louie, Louie
Chorus
It's the feel good hit of this endless summer
It gets these kids out of control
Singin along to that star spangled bummer,
Hail, hail rock and roll
Marilyn Manson’s real name isn't even Marilyn Manson,
He's a skinny public high school Kid from Florida,
Not some monster from out of this world and like of a lot other skinny long hair public
High school kids he was sick of getting
Beaten up by the pulling guard all week only to go out on the weekend,
And watch the Quarterback get all the girls so,
He formed a band man
Now' he gets all the girls,
A few years later a couple of latchkey kids go tragically
Mad and everybody's standing around the television store at the mall trying to figure out what went wrong,
This guy says,
You think the life of a kid going to high school could've gotten so bad this other guy says nah,
It's just the words to one of them goddamn Marilyn Manson songs,
You know the one
Chorus
You know, every ten years or so our country and some other little country,
We start firing all of our newest weapons
At each other for some reason or another, right or wrong,
Like it or not, it happens, and when it happens
People get shot and when people get shot,
They show it on tv a lot every night at six o clock
And you don't even have to be eighteen to see it you don't even have to be in first grade,
First grade where they teach the kid pride
They tell him he'll need to thrive,
In a world where only the strong will survive,
So he's taught the art of more
To compare to and to keep score Monday thru Friday while
He stares at the floor til' Sunday they make him go to
School once more only this time they make him wear a suit and a tie
And listen to some guy who claims to know Where people go
When they die tell him that only the meek are gonna inherit the earth Well shit,
By this time the kid doesn't know what anything
Is worth, now brothers and sisters I am only one guy
And I don't even know the words to that song Louie,
Louie but I can tell you right now without batting an eye
That the next time some latchkey kid goes wrong
It aint gonna be cause that Eminem gets to say the word Fag in his song
And I'm not trying to preach to ya either,
I'm just trying to sing to ya too, you know string a few words together
Hey kids...
Lets get it on,
Lets get it on
DJ...open your mind! Your posting this really demonstrates what kind of person you are. Sad.
Yes, it is disturbing (which is why I choose not to even click on the link). While it may be surprising to some, there are still some of us who do find this offensive. I won't post why I feel this way here (that only causes flame wars) but I have no problem discussing this in person. In fact, I did discuss this with DrTyore at a tournament (with many others), and while we choose to disagree, that doesn't invalidate my view (or his). Some of my conversations with Mark (and Shannon) have shown that people can have diametrically opposing views and values, and still discuss it in an open and respectful way. I consider Mark a very good friend, despite the fact that we agree on very little outside of poker (but that just makes the conversations more interesting), and we both still think the other is wrong
I do find it extremely amusing that finding homosexuality abhorrent is "intolerant", but the same people making these accusations are demonstrating an obvious intolerance of a persons personal and/or religious beliefs, but don't consider their own intolerance to be a problem. For example:
Why is one form of tolerance socially acceptable and another form is considered wrong? The discrimination is still there... A person can "open their mind" and still disagree with you.
Unless I am misunderstanding, you are implying that disagreeing with your view is "ignorant". I don't believe somebody who finds homosexuality acceptable is ignorant or stupid - I think they simply choose to believe different things than I do, both on a "philosophical" level as well as which evidence they choose to accept/reject. Is this not more tolerant than a blanket statement that those whose views differ from yours are ignorant bigots? Or is that type of intolerance and stereotyping somehow more acceptable?
There is a big jump from disapproval to hate. I too have a big problem with hate, regardless of who it is directed against.
If someone choses to broadcast their feelings about calling it sick and wrong is another matter. It is offensive as it would be to denounce any religion, ethnicity or heritage. This world we live in is the way it is due to intolerance and closed mindedness. And by closed mindedness I mean the lack of the ability to accept that people are different.
To djalikool. By posting this message you are letting everyone know that you hate homosexual behaviour. Good for you. Why do I or anyone else need to know this? Express your hate elsewhere. I don't want to see it or hear it.
Homosexuals, transgenders, transvestites and bi-sexual people are humans. You should treat them as such. They live, love, laugh and breathe as you do. They should be respected and loved for the same reasons you would expect the same.
Get on your asbestos suits boys.
This is not a point for debate Beanie, we are born. I can assure you that. Despite going to church every Sunday- at 6 I was looking up my teacher's skirt at storytime with the boys, and as a teenager my bestfriend (a lesbian) and I were intimitately related. You need only to look at the impulses and drives of children to know, surely you can not doubt their/our motives.
Spot on, that type of intolerance IS more acceptable..because it is intolerance of ..your intolerance.
You tell me Beanie, What right have you to be in MY or any other Gay/Bi/Lesbian..hell even Straight and consenting person's bedroom, which is where you'd need to be in order to make such a statement as homosexuality may be unacceptable?
When 700 Huntley street starts cross-Canada motorcycle crusades as they did when gay marriage was the hot topic...you cannot sit idly behind a declaration that it's your 'right' to have an opinion. Gay persons are not a 'philosophical' issue on which you wax poetic in a passive way- we are living breathing entities with desires and rights.
On that point you (and your religion) are actively OPPRESSING me and people like me.
Simply because you didn't hop on a bike and drive with them does NOT exhonerate you- if you are willing to use terms like "offensive" and "abhorrent."
You're like an armchair racist...you didn't set a cross on fire in my front yard but you are supporting hate and intolerance. You have NO RIGHT, religious or otherwise to make public statements condemning my innate qualities.
Live those words Beanie, they look pretty here on the forum..but they do not jive with the reality.
The bible may have been written by god's chosen vessels, but they were still human and therefore not without flaw. I'm sure there are many passages that are debatable, is it so much to ask that you look at the reality that gay people exist and feel entitled to be and free? It never ceases to amaze me when intelligent people like yourself can be so blind. Here's an exercise, pick a hate- racism, sexism.. whatever and look at those most adamant ..you'd be amazed how many can hide behind the bible. Read a KKK member's website, hear him quote the bible and then you'll understand why you're met with such hostility regarding your 'views' on homosexuality. The two of you in the same school of thinking.
Short form: Beanie, (and DJalikool) you are wrong, no if's and's or but's about it. You are actively oppressing people like me, you fill our lives with shame and fear and hurt, everytime you support or further this nonsense. How does your God feel about people who do that?
Nonsense! Who the hell are you to get up on your soapbox (..yet again) and claim to speak for all non hetorosexuals?
I'll do the obligitory preface here, I have many,many lesbian friends and many more lesbian aquantices. Good friends of ours. Why?, My wife has played Womens hockey for a dozen years and I've coached for 10 of those years in a very sociable and gay posotive league. Most players in the league head out to the bar after every Saturday game, weekend trny's out of town, summer pool parties, we've had some of our very good lesbian friends up to the cottage several times....etc...conversation flows..
So well most are 'born' as you put it...a good few of the lesbians I know have made it clear in no uncertain terms it is a lifestyle CHOICE!
So while I am gay posotive as far as women go, don't know any gay men that I know of....
Your blanket statement is BS. You do not speak for everyone.
wow! I don't know where to begin with that comment.
I'm sure straight woman wake up all the time and say "You know what? I'm not a big fan of the woman esthetic, but I'll lick her junk just to have someone who will hold my hand through "The Notebook."
Perhaps a bisexual woman might not consider a man for a partner (and you're a shining example of why we would) but that does NOT make it a choice to be gay.
Are black people born black? Is THAT a blanket statement too?
Allow me to point out that -it is the fact that a SINGLE gay person born negates the entire religious argument. If God makes one lonely little homo, you must accept that it is not a fault- and since you've conceded that point already I thank you for endorsing my argument.
We ARE born, whether all or one...take the rest up with your God in his infinite knowledge.
/g2
You've made no argument and a few weak insults. Where are you headed with this and in what way can I help further acceptance and understanding through information?
without geting into deatails...a couple bad/abusive relationshps with men, some women may seek alternatives.
I don't know, I guess I picked apart part of your post because you picked apart all of Beanie's post. I'd really rather chat poker good night and good luck.
My personal beliefs 101:
If you're that upset over what total strangers are doing in the bedroom, you should really examine what else is going on in the world
If you think being gay is a lifestyle choice, tell me when you "chose" to be straight... I don't remember that moment in my life.
Beanie42: I consider him and his family my friends. I have much love for the Cook Crew, and respect his opinions on many many matters. The fact that we have differing points of view on several topics means nothing to me. I disagree with my closest friends on many things. BUT... beanie42 has his beliefs, and he has never tried to enforce his values and beliefs upon me. As he mentioned, we have discussed this issue (the "Brokeback mountain debate"), and although I disagree with him, I have no doubt that he would never attempt to force his beliefs upon another. If you ask him, yes, he will tell you his opinions...
But... if you truly believe in freedom of speech, you have to be willing to listen to someone basicaly s#it on everything you hold dear, and be able to say "although I disagree, I think you should be able to say it".
My post basically says only that I am shocked at the effort and vehemence that people put into subjects that quite frankly non-applicable to them... I thin ki have another posssible Todd Snider quote that is appropriate, but well, anyone that doesn't know better won't appreciate it anyways.
EDIT: FWIW as well, after re-reading beanie's 1st post I do agree with him that there are forms of intolerance that are considered righteous oddly enough, and that is unacceptable too... I hope that my original post didn't come off as slamming anyone.... I'm just pointing out that there are many many more things in the world to be dismayed by. If you're against homosexuality, well, I'm not going to want to argue with you. Beanie and I talked about why he holds his views, and quite frankly I respect them - IMO he does not hold them from a place of fear or hatred, and THAT is what bothers me, irrationality, which leads to stupid people. If you put a hate on someone without really understanding why, well, how does that make sense at all, be it anti-gay or be it overly righteous behaviour... people don't really like to think anymore, and that's a shame.
Mark
First off, I would like to state that freedom of speech is the most important right I feel I have as a citizen of this world. An opinion is an opinion, no matter how ignorant, rude, blind or misinformed it is. However, with our freedom to speak our minds comes a responsibility to use them. To further explain this point I will use an age old saying; the old saying says, 'my right to swing my arm stops where your nose begins'. I am allowed to swing my arms, but when swinging my arms hurts another person or group of people, I should re-evaluate what is more important. The right to swing my arms, or the rights of the people being hurt by swinging my arms.
With my lifestyle I have no place for religion in my life. I talk to God sometimes, and for the most part think s/he sort of likes me. I grew up a Christian, in a Catholic church. I took Religion (World Religion) all through high school and another course in University. The Golden Rule throughout all religions is, in so many words, 'do unto others as you would like done onto you'. Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, Confucists et al, believe in those words. But if you speak to a devout believer in any of the top 10 religions many of they have a hypocritical approach when talking about homosexuals.
I've been searching for a reason as to why these people of God can have such a distaste for the people God created. I personally believe that is does not have to do with science. Christians are so easy to cling to and believe in miracles from 2000 years ago. They believe a miracle man was born to a virgin, healed people with his hands, rose from the dead and open the gates to a place, no one even knows exists until they die. It is entirely possible that this happened. But there is no proof but what is in your heart.
When a group of physically present HUMAN BEINGS, who are living today, standing all around you, are saying, 'With your thoughts and beliefs you fill our lives with shame and fear and hurt'. I think you can safely say that the proverbial Christian arm is swinging wildly and is not stopping short of the homosexual's face. Ten of thousands of homosexual/bisexual people have plead with society that they did not choose to be the way they are. There are 100's of studies in which gay people have volunteered to be tested and researched just to prove that they have a right to be treated as equals.
Any good debater looks at all sides of an argument and I understand that for Christians (and lets not generalize anymore, Beanie et al) you have a lifetime of stereotyping and prejudice spoon feeding to overcome. So I sympathize that it is your first instinct to say, 'there are conflicting studies'. The fact is, there are conflicting studies to most everything. But in this case there are living, breathing, loving, tax paying people of this earth, begging you to believe them when they say that they did not choose to be the way they are. They are children of God Beanie, and ergo entitled to the basic rights and freedoms as such.
You have no outs Beanie, you ARE drawing dead, these posts are on a public forum and, therefore, OPPRESSIVE.
As I've said in this thread and others (and has been shown historically on this and other forums) there is way too much misunderstanding and lost information discussing stuff like this through e-communication.
Kristy/Josh - you do have the "freedom of speech" to continue flaming me here if you wish. However, if you actually want to discuss this rationally in person, PM or call me - I'll even buy the coffee
Beanie, I have enjoyed your company at the table several times now. I am NOT 'hating' you. Nor am I attacking a 'stereotype' of your religion. I attended St. Timothy's and Northside Community church on my own for years. I was also a missionary cadet as a child. I took the lead in my church drama club and choir and was an active member who used to consider myself a 'christian' and fully invested in the religion.
I don't see how you can arrive at the conclusion that YOU are being attacked, but if you'd be so kind as to attempt to approach this debate from my perspective, I believe you will see that, I was BORN into this fight..you choose to have it. The only option I have is to not allow this mindset of Djalikool to bother me..but the idea of giving up on people doesn't sit well and that includes not giving up on you.
And so, I very much look forward to having the debate with you in person. The bible is a very good book, full of ideas that could improve many lives-but it is not the only guideline by which one should gage right and wrong.
I hope Beanie that I will be able to convince you that YOU are not in, anyway being attacked, and with respect and fairness have no right to be on the defensive. I said earlier- I was born into this fight. I must defend my right to live, love, marry, adopt. You are defending your religion's ability to deny me those rights. Homophobic sentiment IS an attack, and I am not now-nor have I been denying that I am 100% intolerant of intolerance.
I'd just like to close my bedroom door.
Might be off topic here, but why did CBS get sued when Janet showed her nipple, but CITYTV shows 3 hours of the Gay Pride Parade with minimum of 40 sets of boobs being flashed, in the afternoon on the longest street in Canada (where children maybe around) and it's aired on a Saturday afternoon, sametime as pokemon?!?!
I really think people choose to be Gay. I don't think people are born with it. It's your upbringing that makes one choose your sexuality. If I have a son and I let him play with Barbies and her friends at the age of 5 will that make him a player? I might aswell sign him up for Ballet. I just think it's a choice. If we were born with it, then why is it not in any religious book, no reference of it anywhere. Why is the Catholic Church against such behavior? God loves everyone, don't get me wrong. But I think god knows what he is doing, and made everyone equal. People chose it amoung themselves to be gay.
I for one would be against gay marriages. In today's society, you have to think about other affects it will have, other then standing up for equal rights. Think about this, how many times were you made fun of as a kid at school cuz' u dressed a certain way, or you wore your hair a certain way. Now as today's youth are growing up, people are being harrased even killed because of there sexuality. Back to my example: Gay people will want kids, how will that effect them scholasticly? They will be made fun of, because they have 2 dads. Why make someone else suffer?
In conclusion, just like abortion it is disturbing but also a choice.
A/S/L?
I'd type more but I just threw up in my mouth and must now go brush my teeth.
So by your argument, all kids whose parents sign them up for hockey year after year will grow into professional hockey players.
Dam my parents
I agree with Kristy, it is NOT a choice. I have many gay firends (and family members too) and to say it's a choice is a bit far fetched. Really who would say that "I choose to be ridiculed/assaulted/denied my rights"
Everyone has the right to their opinion and I can respect that.
BTW there are those that feel that Jesus was gay http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jegay.htm
And while the bible gives guidelines, we must not take everything literally or we'd still treat our wives as chattel.
Just my 2cents and my only post on this subject.
I don't believe the bible makes any reference to people being born with blonde hair vs red hair or some people are taller than others or that I have blue eyes and my son has grey eyes. It happens. The bible also does not mention the existance of dinosaurs but they existed nonetheless.
Go ahead and be against gay marriage (I disagree with you), think that homosexuality is a sin (again I disagree) but don't show hate for other humans based on sexual preference. As you wouldn't hate someone for being Muslim or being Catholic. I'm not asking you to be their friend but don't oppress them.
- Kristy and Haddon: In almost all the issues being discussed, I feel that I am mostly in agreement with you two, however, there have been statements that seem to stem from a place of ignorance at the moment with regards to beanie42 (though I'm sure the "if you're on the internet, misunderstandings and virutal bravado increase ten-fold" effect is somewhat responsible). I've no doubt that Trevor feels he is right, no more than we feel we are. However, by writing things such as we've seen in this thread without simply asking beanie42 why he feels as he does, that is unfair as well. I've talked with him about this, and though I don't necessarily agree, I can respect why he feels as he does, and I further respect the fact that he does not (in my opinion) try to force his opinions on others, in fact, Trevor and Jenn are of those few "religious" people whom I fully appreciate because they live by all of what their faith believes. They treat everyone with the utmost respect and love, and for that I am truly glad to know them, and quite frankly love the way that they live their lives. They do live by your analogy of "I can swing my arms until it gets to your nose".
- djalikool: CBS got sued because they did not meet the broadcasting standards requirments, whereby they would notify viewers of potential nudity / adult situations. They did NOT get sued for showing a boob. Watch any show and the little rating box comes up - any adult situations shows (CityTv >1a.m.) also have the obligatory "Warning.. the following program...". As for the fact that the gay pride parade is broadcast, well, let's put it this way... I'd rather a child of mine see bare breasts before a violent murder, a mutilated corpse, or a scene of severe beatings (eg. CSI, which is on about 1,389 times a day).
- djalikool (again) explain to me how upbringing causes homosexuality? Where did the first homosexual learn from then? Can you show me the book that teaches how to raise a straight child? Never mind the fact that most ballet dancers (male) are straight (and think about it this way, their job is to dance closely with and be physical with women day in and day out, yet they're considered "fairies", yet pro-wrestlers are tough guys for getting sweaty with other men while wearing spandex) Would you assume that the entire Canada women's hockey team are lesbians? What about females employed in traditionally male jobs (construction, welders, etc.)? What about gay football/hockey/baseball players (yup, they're out there)? As I said in my last post, THINK. You are saying things that quite frankly are ignorant, and beyond ignorant, illogical and irrational, which in my opinion is probably the greatest misuse of a beautiful thing called the human brain.
- djalikool (again): You are right; kids do horrible things to one another in school. I was consistantly mocked and picked on, and beaten up in school. Was it because I had gay parents? No, I came from your typical family. Did I dress funny? Not really, in fact, I was a pretty average kid, just not "cool". If you want to think of this situation logically, would it not make sense then to attempt to rectify the fact that our children are mocking and attacking others for circumstances beyond their control? How does turning a blind eye to something that is wrong solve anything? Instead of "They will be made fun of, because they have 2 dads. Why make someone else suffer?", we should be asking "Where are our children learning that it is okay to look down on someone else, or to persecute them for it? How can we fix THAT?" I love to quote people because anything I think has likely been expressed better than I could, so here's one more... I would rather light a candle than curse the darkness.
- Gay marriage: Forty odd years ago, the idea of a mixed-race relationship was unheard of! Imagine the poor children who have been produced who have a white father and a black mother! Shocking! An oriental man and a latino woman? Insane I tell you! And before anyone breaks out the "well, if a child is to be well adjusted, they need a mother and a father", that doesn't fly - look at all the single parent situations where the kids are fine. In my line of work, I see a lot of the "troubled" kids, and I can tell you now, yes, most of their problems originate from the parents, mom or dad, or both. Not because they're poor / of a certain race / age / sexuality, but because they are bad parents - enablers, overbearing, "Trying to be their friend", etc.
- "In today's society, you have to think about other affects it will have, other then standing up for equal rights". In my opinion, there is rarely a better cause than to challenge inequality. "All that is required for evil to be victorious is for good men to do nothing".
- djalikool (man... just.. wow) - God: God does know what God is doing - we don't. And by the way, references to homosexuality are found in literature dating back as far as ancient greece and further (i.e. before JC and the boys). I again challenge you, tell me what moment in your life did you choose to be straight? Would this not mean that at any given moment you could choose to be gay? What did your parents do to ensure your heterosexuality?
- A final request and in my opinion the secret - especially to you djalikool - believe what you want, but believe it because it makes sense to you. You will have my full respect if you can tell me why you feel the way you do about something because of well thought out, logical, rational reasons. If you can't give these reasons, you're not thinking at all, and that is probably the greatest sin of all.
- A final thought: the song in the video wasn't that good to start with anyways
Thanks for reading! <Steps down off soapbox>
Mark
I'd type my thoughts..but the above is fairly clear and I need to find a tissue, my nose IS bleeding.
Personal example: A friend of mine has a black mother and a black father, and not so coincedentally, he is black.
On the other hand you have people who are alcoholics. They also many times are born with genes that will cause the tendency for them to become alcoholics. But I wouldn't say that they are alcoholics if they never touch alcohol.
Another personal example: Another of my friends has a grandfather that is an alcoholic. His uncle sadly is an alcoholic as well. He too unfortunately is an alcoholic. His mother on the other hand has NEVER touched alcohol in her life. I could not refer to her as an alocoholic even though she may have the genetic tendency to become one.
Similarily I believe their are physical attributes one cannot say are a choice. However behaviourial attributes are a matter of choice.
You didn't specifically state your position re: homosexuality. I'm curious where you stand in this?
A sociology professor I had defined sexuality as something like a triangle: with the area representing the human population. The three points representing those who are exclusively gay, straight, and completely equally bi-sexual. You'll note that the majority of the area is found inbetween these three points and so too would the human population.
I would argue that what you are commenting on, and where nurture steps in and nature steps out is in the level to which a person in the biggest section of the triangle makes a decision to endorse or deny their homosexual (or heterosexual) tendencies. Maybe one woman has lesbian fantasies, and finds women appealing, but never acts on this. I would consider her to be a born bi-sexual woman, who has chosen to lead a straight life. Do you see the distinction?
Edit: My objective was to show here that gay people are not deviating from the straight life, much less doing it by choice. I'm not sure if it is clear that what I am suggesting is that it is not black and white but rather most of us would be varying shades of gay ..oops gray.
The "Nature vs. Nurture" debate is a big one, and in fact, many psychological studies on identical twins and homosexuality have had confounding results (i.e. one twin self identified as gay while the other straight). However, there are obviously external variables that come into play: the fear of coming out / being exposed (or as the kids are apparantly calling it, being "Lanced"), hatred and bigotry, and all the other "stupid people" things that have come up in this thread.
Though, using your theory of genetic dispositioning towards homosexuality, then perhaps (based on my entry-level recollection of genetics), homosexuality is a non-dominant trait, one that is "over-ridden" by the "Straight gene"... but again, that would equate a homosexual person with someone having brown eyes due to the lack of dominant blue-eye genes... back to "born with it".
The nature / nurtue combo you use with regards to alcoholism is different than what I just typed though, but isn't it interesting that we're more tolerant of alcoholics? We call it an affliction, and say these people need help, but only because of the emotional, social, and financial / medical damage alcoholism does.
Athletic prowess is at least partially genetically encoded, but proper nurturing is also responsible for these high-perfomance athletes (not all tall people are basketball players, just because you have horrible hair doens't mean you play hockey
If homosexuality is akin to these genetic dispositions, why would people on one side claim it to be a choice and on another side claim full genetics? Something I want to think more on before posting...
Oh... this reminds me.... as a psychology major I did a project in my course on "Behaviour". We got to pick a topic, and I took homosexuality. Just an FYI for djalikool, homosexual tendencies ranging from simple sexual acts (e.g. mutual masturbation, anal / oral sex) as well as longer term social bonding (life-partnering, co-parenting behaviour) has been observed, documented, and reproduced in both artificial and natural situation among EVERY animal family on the planet. This means that scientists have verified same-sex relationships on multiple levels and forms among every animal from insects to humans, fish to birds, and everything in between.
Think about it.... please
Mark