Low Limit with AK
I was playing at Rama last week-end at the 2-5 and there was a hand with AK. Now when no one folds pre-flop to any raises (in this game)and you are getting 8 to a flop (shows downs are usually 9-3, 10-6, and k-7) do you still raise pre-flop with AK and AQ suited or unsuited or do you just call saving a bet if you miss?
Comments
Especially in Limit... it minimizese most suckouts.
Mark
Not really because no one folds.
Why would you normally not raise preflop with AK? To disguise a powerful hand right? Well, that's pointless in this game.... nobody's paying attention, so make those 9-3o donkeys pay to see a flop.
I am making several assumptions however.
A: You are disciplined enough to not overplay AK
B: You know you are one of the better players at the table
C: You will not waste bets when you are beat tot he best of your ability.
If you can do those three things, well, raise preflop!
Mark
Well A-K is a drawing hand, you have nothing but A high so unless you hit the flop you have nothing so in this situation is it better to save the bet pre-flop and then pump it when you hit your cards?
I am only referring to this situation where most pots are family pots or are pretty close it.
Read a book.
How about "SHUT THE HELL UP" if you have nothing worth saying or does trying to generating interesting discussions not interest you?
Seriously dude why post to say read a book?
Do you feel that you are some kind of poker god....then why are you here wasting your time with us mere mortals go out and make your millions and be on the World Poker Tour and World Series of Poker?
I know the point of raising AK pre-flop but after seeing the amount of people calling anything pre-flop I started wondering is it the best way to play in this situation and what others would think. (I do know the answer)
So to contribute to the forum I decide to post asking to see various thoughts and ideas about it.
You're not raising here to thin the field. But you're raising for future value. You hit your cards, and you've increased the pot by $16 (assuming 8-way calls pre-flop). You don't hit your flop, and you've only "lost" $2.
Mark hit it on the head - if you can get away from AK, and don't throw money away when you know you're beat, you have to make the donators pay to see the flop. The best part is they will pay you off big-time when you hit.
You don't know the point of raising AK preflop.
I guess I'm just amazed that someone with as many posts as you doesn't know the basics of poker. I guess you just watch a lot of it on TV or something.
I "meant" to say Limit minimizes the amount of money you lose on suckouts.
Further, look at it from a straight pro/con
Pros:
- Get more money in the pot (Family pot with ten people means 5BB in there) for the one time in three you do hit.
- By raising, you're only behind two hands (AA / KK), Equal with 12 others (AK, QQ-->22), and ahead of ALL THE REST therefore. This means you're behind 12 (0.1%) possible hands, tied with 75 (6%) hands, and ahead of 1239 (94%) other possible hands.
Cons:
- Miss the flop, lose 0.5 BB (about 2/3rds of the time)
Mark
So I must be clueless thanks for pointing it out.
I will put this as simply as possible for you..... You Are An Idiot
I am trying to generate some discussion.
People should not feel afraid or feel like some one is criticizing them for asking a question....now if this is beneath you then simple screw off and go else where, where you and the other poker snobs can talk all day long about how you are the greatest players in the world and every one else is a donk.
Now thanks to DrTyore for actually posting an intelligent response.
The reason why I am posting this is because a player beside me when playing was trying to tell me it was a waste to raise A-K in this kind of game because you are just wasting a bet and every one calls. (Of course I agreed with him because I am not in the job of educating the fish at the table). But it made me wonder what you would say to this person if they were your friend.
As to the OP, I would always raise this hand, and in a normal LL game (online or casino), I'd probably cap if given the chance. Against better opponents, I'd definitely put in a raise or three-bet, but depending on the opponents/position, I actually might simply call a third raise or fold if it's four-bet in front of me. However, a raised pot with 5 or 6 to the flop doesn't seem to indicate those types of opponents
I think you have DrTyore posted mixed up with BBC's.
BBC's was simply "Read a book" which does not contribute to the thread nor the poker forum community in general because 90% of the questions on the forum can be answered that way.
There is no harm thinking that a post or opinion is pointless, but responding with a simple one line answer does not accomplish anything.
Now in all serious if this person was your friend and they said to you "should I always raise with A-K when there are 8 people in the flop?" would respond with only "read a book"? Or would you say "yes you should because of....blah...blah...blah and/or check out this book...."
I think too many people here use the facelessness of the internet to be asshole and say things to people that they would never say in person.
Happy now?
Edit #1: I would be more than happy to tell anyone who spouted nonsense that gave me the impression they had no idea what they are talking about to read a book. In person or not.
This sounds like someone who has been 'rivered' a lot by the low-limit donks at Rama and is looking to lose, rather than looking to win. They go into a hand expecting the suck-out, and "save" their money, instead of getting their money in with the best of it. And that is just plain bad poker.
How about you stop being a jack ass and actually contribute something useful to the forum?
(Because truth be told when you stop being an ass and get over your self you do post some interesting topics and insight).
The same rules of poker apply here….”Don’t tap the fish tank”. The quickest way to kill any forum is to have some one who thinks they are better then every one to come by and insult everybody
Pump it or dump it.
Calling is way too weak-tight.
JMHO
Johnnie
and I agree totally with you that BBC saying, go read a book is just plain stupid comment.
If a friend of mine asked me what to do. I would simply say raise and get the most money in the limit pot as you can before the flop, if you hit it is basically more money for you.
but then anything can happen after the flop as well, but that is poker.
Also, it feels like AK loses more than it wins. However, it's real close and it actualy wins just slightly more than 50%. However, my experience is that AKo is about the 9'th biggest money maker and AKs is about the 5'th biggest money making hand --right in line with the Sklansky hand rankings (go figure!)
I still misplay AK even after lots and lots of hands. But the more I remember these little facts the more I remember how to play it and play it properly more often.
Cheers
Magi
You meant "Pump it." right?
Changing the question slightly...what other hands are you raising in this spot on the button with 7 limpers in ahead of you?
ATo?
KJs?
QTo?
JTs?
76s?
88?
33?
A7s?
If you don't want to buy a book, then try downloading pokerstove for free.
Plug in AKo and the hand range of the Rama donks... see if raising is +EV
BBZ is always terse to the point of rudeness but he's worth listening to.
I'd rather have a forum of honest, smart, rude people than nice, polite idiots.
You have been honored with a rude terse suggestion on how to improve your game ....
KJs - yes
QTo? - no
JTs - yes
76s - yes
88 - yes
33 - no
A7s - yes
I suck at limit...
Hmm... Off the top of my head, mine are something like:
ATo - unhappily limp
KJs - yes
QTo? - unhappily limp
JTs - I'd say I'm probably raising half the time and calling half the time here.
76s - happily limp
88 - consider raising, then happily limp.
33 - happily limp
A7s - consider raising, then happily limp.
In fact the weak-tight part of me almost wants to fold ATo and QTo, but of course I'll limp along, since I just can't pass up spots to play in position against a ton of loose players.
Pocket's 3 are the hand I actually had.
4 Limpers to me with 3's so I limp. Player behind me raises. Player behind him calls along with the blinds. Every one else then calls as well so I call.
Flop comes 9c 8s 3c.
All checked to me.
Now would you bet here?
The player behind me just sat down and this is the first hand he has played/raised so I have no reads other then some first impressions.
I have the feeling he may make another bet on this flop.
First impression was he knows what he is doing but seems new to live poker. (Just the way he is handling his chips and watching the action at the table)
It's tough to make a pot size bet in a limit game.
If he doesn't, somebody else may. I'd go for the check raise here. If buddy next to you bets, he's probably going to get a few callers - then you check raise, everyone who already called will call for another bet, increasing the pot size...which is what you're going for here with your set.
With 8 callers preflop, I find it hard to imagine that it will get checked around, so I don't think you're risking not getting any money in on the flop.
Against fewer opponents I wouldn't risk the check-raise, since it's more likely to get checked around.
Didn't realize that. Still making the bet though. If it's raised, I call and take the turn.
If it's raised, I reraise here.
Is that too aggressive in LLHE? I dunno, with my set I think I'm good. Only pocket 8s and 9s beat me. I'll get called (and likely capped) with 8/9, club flush draw, two overs, higher pairs....the games are Rama are so fishy, people will call you all the way with ONE over to the board.
I fast play my hands here (ok, I did say I'd check raise in my previous post, but still). I am not cautious with these hands. I may get rivered by flushes etc, but with these games you only need one of two big pots for a profitable session.
Bet, re-raise and cap if you can... many reasons
I have a set - I'm ahead.
If want to make people pay for their draws
I want to have odds to draw to my ten outs for the boat / quads when they hit they straight / flush on the turn for the river.
Mark
Mark is 100% correct here. Put your chips in the middle.