On one hand you want to be treated as an equal, yet on the other you are looking for "gender specific" books because of the fact that you are a woman.
You can't have your cake and eat it too.
I look at anyone at my table as a poker player first, then I categorize them by how I feel they play, Weak, Tight, Passive etc. Gender doesn't come into it unless as Joe said, she looks like Jennifer Titty.
On one hand you want to be treated as an equal, yet on the other you are looking for "gender specific" books because of the fact that you are a woman.
First: I was challenging the forum readers to find a link that is woman specific and informative. Meaning said link didn't treat us as frivelously attempting to impress our boyfriends, fathers, male friends. I'm not eating the cake here..just attempting to find out if there even IS cake.
Second: I don't remember asking to be treated as an equal..I believe I stated (repeatedly) that women face UNIQUE challenges and should be supported in their specific obstacles to become an enthusiastic and learned player.
LOL>Man I hope "Jenifer Titty" was a typo..I can't even wrap my head around the type of sadism required to post such a pun in the dominant 'girl power' type thread! I presume you're the proud owner of ball clamps and a full body leather suit.
I really do feel passionately about this subject feel free to challenge me again. I believe my points are fair and reasonable..admittedly idealistic, and with a blind eye towards the very PC mentality that we are equal. My contention is that we may have an entitlement to equality but society as a flawed whole can never obtain that..attempting to level the playing field and the nature vs. nurture differences as they pertain to a particular section (in this case poker) is the best we can do.
Would the non-believers also debate the merit of such female initiatives as: the push with in schools to increase the presence of women in male dominated subjects...ie: sciences, math and the 'shop' type classes?
However I would suggest that I would support and encourage her to go play if someone would host a ladies only tourney with a daytime start. Perhaps Kanga would step up. It is a possibility for us to host but not likely until the spring at least.
Great Idea Moose.. Kanga what do you think.. Any other ladies interested in a say once a month tourney just for us.. We could have a point system or something and make it a regular thing . without the men. Set it up with a year end tourney. I was thinking a buy in of say 50 dollars, first second third pay out each month. keeping 10 dollars of that for the final tourney to be award first second third and depending on how many ladies and how much money maybe fourth and fifth.. what do you thing ???
Actually I think I am right on topic. I don't think what I posted is specifically poker related but it is related to the barriers women face in general anytime they wish to participate in a male dominated event.
Your post does seem to be on the "current" topic based on how it's morphed, but I was trying to stay on the OP which was "unique poker/gender"-related. Based on how this thread has progressed, it seems that the topic is as you describe it - woman in general (and unrelated to poker other than as a generality).
I'm still looking for a direct answer to my request for something poker and gender specific, anything to demonstrate the "unique problems" alluded to but not presented in the OP.
Barring anything poker-related, I'm going to bow out of this conversation. I'm not really interested in discussing a male-dominated world on a POKER forum, but I don't mind discussing almost anything live (Kristy, you can attack me next time we play ). e-communication is somewhat lacking and leads to many misunderstandings and flame-wars, and once a conversation reaches a point where it becomes heated (or is about to, which this is, especially considering my views on women ), I'll take it off-line.
I'm still looking for a direct answer to my request for something poker and gender specific, anything to demonstrate the "unique problems" alluded to but not presented in the OP.
Sounds to me like you're looking for quantifiable evidence to support the op, but how can one quantify an attitude? I might be off base, but isn't that the basis for any discrimination in any field? Unless there is a study out there specifically on female poker players and the challenges they face, I don't think you will find any evidence to either support or deny. However, just because there isn't any evidence to support it doesn't suggest it doesn't exist, and believe otherwise is like playing with blinders on. It's there, and like discrimination in ANY form, you don't have to look hard to find it.
Sorry, Trevor, I normally agree with alot of your way of thinking, but I believe you're ignoring truth due to lack of evidence in this matter.
Unless there is a study out there specifically on female poker players and the challenges they face, I don't think you will find any evidence to either support or deny. However, just because there isn't any evidence to support it doesn't suggest it doesn't exist, and believe otherwise is like playing with blinders on. It's there, and like discrimination in ANY form, you don't have to look hard to find it.
Sorry, Trevor, I normally agree with alot of your way of thinking, but I believe you're ignoring truth due to lack of evidence in this matter.
Don't be sorry AJ - I expect people to disagree with me (quite often, actually) and I don't take it personally. This is how we learn and grow. And as smart as I think I am sometimes, I can be pretty dumb too - I'm not perfect (yet ).
I'm not necessarily looking for evidence (even anecdotes or examples would be nice) but what I am looking for is something related to poker. Saying that woman get flack for going out is true without respect to poker. I've been very surprised at how many women are not allowed to go out to a Tupperware party by their husbands because they are expected to stay at home with the family. I'm not disputing that discrimination against women occurs, but that's a very broad topic. The OP stated that there are unique problems for women in poker and I'm wondering what they are - even a description would be nice. So far the problems have been either problems women have in a number of areas (due to our culture), or problems all poker players have. If Kristy has experienced problems getting into poker unique to women I'm honestly interested in knowing what they are. I can't offer suggestions otherwise, and it's even possible that I could be unwittingly doing some of the things that cause these offenses (and I can't correct what I don't know about).
I don't see how I can be considered "ignoring truth" if none has been presented which meets the criteria from the OP. I'm not denying they are there but I simply don't know what they are, and nobody has described any so far.
Well, I can offer in line to your request are personal observations.
I have personally seen women in a poker game get targetted and bullied by male opponents for no other reason that I could see other than the fact they were female. And one time I even overheard a fellow player comment how much he would love to be seated in a tournament at a table filled with women, because he could 'dominate' and build a huge stack for final table.
On the flip side, I have also witnessed women use sex appeal to lure male opponents into traps or to prevent them from making moves, simply but a rather nice smile, and the poor bastard melted to it.
I guess one could argue that it's just another piece of information a player can use to take advantage of another player, regardless of gender, and for the most part, it's the young and inexperienced that either believe the first argument above or fall victim to the second. Still, I do think women face challenges in this game over and above a beginner male would.
I have personally seen women in a poker game get targetted and bullied by male opponents for no other reason that I could see other than the fact they were female. And one time I even overheard a fellow player comment how much he would love to be seated in a tournament at a table filled with women, because he could 'dominate' and build a huge stack for final table.
I'd love to be at a table of women + this guy - sounds like he'd be an ATM. Personally I've never seen anything like this (and it would surprise me to see, considering where I play ), so I'll chalk this up to my sheltered/inexperienced/friendly playing career. I think a parallel could be drawn with most new players, since I know that I love to target newbies since I consider them weak. I guess the "uniqueness" here is the assumption that female = weak/inexperienced regardless of how the lady plays (is that a correct understanding of the issue)?
On the flip side, I have also witnessed women use sex appeal to lure male opponents into traps or to prevent them from making moves, simply but a rather nice smile, and the poor bastard melted to it.
I forgot that Amanda plays at Ching Hill now . I'm not sure this is an additional challenge but instead an additional weapon.
lol...yes, she does, but to her credit, I don't think she has tried that one on any of us YET. Not that it would do her any good anyway. BTW, I wasn't referring to Amanda either, but in a WSP game I was in once awhile ago.
I think that was original point of the OP Trevor, the fact that women players are considered weak and inexperienced, regardless of how much they actually know about the game. It's a common train of thought that MOST women players are weak players by most, albeit younger, male players.
Anyone who wants to see how weak and inexperienced women players actually are, can come out any Thursday night to my place and get re educated in a hurry!
Yes, I do have a full body leather suit, but I only wear it for high stakes tournys, $20 and up. Wanna host one so I can wear it?
Sorry if I offended you
lol.."high stakes" YUP I'll host - and we'll charge $21.50...if we can get enough players to ante up such a monster offering.
not offended by the "Jennifer Titty" I 'lol'd and I meant it. I'm overlooking the 'only worthwhile reading...' since I believe you think I was attempting to somehow put you down rather than having a good laugh. Let me know, if you're actually looking for a re-slam -I'll try to oblige my new favourite sadist.
I also noticed something from Beanie suggesting I was attacking? (or were you simply implying that I COULD do so live?) I am not. In fact I stated a rather simple opinion..intent on discussing the aformentioned challenges/benefits with women politely and respectfully and finding strong women sites and references (or if they exist?) WITH WOMEN.
I'm opinionated but I believe that by the time I state something strongly- I've put enough thought into a subject for it to be fair for me to confidently and strongly say "this is how I feel."
This doesn't mean that I believe I'm never wrong..but if you're looking to change my mind easily and that is your measure of success- you will probably be disappointed by any debate with me (though perhaps, the ones that roll over and weakly accept the pressure of the majorities vote should also be disappointing?)
I will most likely continue to state my opinion confidently and strongly..I AM listening to what you say-I simply hold a different view. One that I have, to the best of my abilities, sincerely thought through and spent time on.
Kristy
(I'm out of my mind with tiredness..hope those sentences gel well enough to explain my feelings with respect..if ot I'll bring on the edit tomorrow)
Interesting how a post aimed at women can generate so many responses from men? I'm not a woman (let it go, let it go...) so I don't feel overly qualified to comment on the subject. I've resisted the urge up to now but so many others have felt compelled to put their 2 cents in, so why not?
Anyone who doesn't think women face challenges advancing in the poker world has their head 'in the sand'. I'm not talking about just becoming a respectable home game player. I mean advancing into the semi-pro or pro ranks. Sure, for many of these, they are societal issues. (And some may be unique to poker, too.) Who cares? Does that not make them worthy of discussion by female poker players to determine strategies relevant to their situation?
Beanie are you serious that you need examples? Kanga is a lucky woman to be married to such a wonderful man if she hasn't faced at least some challenges in getting to the level she's at in poker. (I'm half serious - I do think you are a great guy, Trev. And Jenn is a great poker player, too.) I will go out on a limb and say not all women are in the same boat.
I'm an insensitive oaf and I can think of a number of potential challenges off the top of my head to be faced (isolation, image, intimidation, disrespect, family responsibilities, lack of sponsorship, bankroll requirements, travel, threat of robbery, rape - need I go on?) but I don't want to clutter this thread by going into detail. Hopefully these can become the subjects of a number of threads that WOMEN are interested in discussing. Sure, I've faced some of these challenges too (especially when Cam is around...) but I'm sure not to the same extent ANY woman would have. These are relevant issues that should be discussed.
Kristy is looking for a few other women interested in sharing their experiences. But women have to be encouraged to participate. I don't believe the bulk of responses in this thread would be in the 'encouraging' category. What's up with that? I guess that is only 'natural'. Look at women getting the vote, going to work, becoming doctors, lawyers, firefighters and police, entering into the armed forces, etc. I guess this is to be expected when women start participating in male-dominated pursuits. All I can say is: Resistance is futile.
(As an interesting aside, my wife's grandmother supported her family with poker winnings during the depression in the Prairies after their crops were destroyed in the dust storms. Now there's a role model!)
The original post asked for links to resources that could help to address this. I do not know of any. It has been suggested to start up a "women only" forum here. I think that would be a good start. Kristy, my suggestion is to send a pm to sloth and see if he is willing to set one up. (He's a pretty enlightened guy, after all. He can spot a profitable opportunity.) I hope this will encourage women to be more active on the forum. And maybe some of the neaderthals, including me, can become a bit more enlightened.
Greg, the only fault I can see in any of what you said is the need for a women's only section. I'm in total agreement otherwise, that women face challenges and attitudes unique to their gender.
But separating the female player from the rest of us is touching on reverse discrimination in my train of thought, and I for one cannot condone it.
Jesus, if we were all only allowed to use false names, no pics, and only play online, we would be playing poker with a group of poker players, not Guys/Girls Night Out functions.
Yes, women have challenges, but really, who doesnt'? Can anyone say that they are so far advanced with their game that they can't improve on it in some way?
AJ, who are you or I to dismiss the concept? It is up to the women here to decide if they want to support the idea. SO SPEAK UP LADIES AND BE HEARD!
Kristy has brought up issues she believes are relevant to her and other women. Could these be discussed in a general forum? Yes - if people treat the topics seriously and don't just 'poo-poo' them. Would it be simpler if they were in a single forum where concerned women could easily focus on issues relevant to them? (and maybe with a moderator who would delete posts/ban abusers...) Of course! Would it water down the forum if these posts were separate? Perhaps slightly.
I do hope women here can be encouraged to participate more fully. I know there are a lot of lurkers out there, perhaps too intimidated to participate or not feeling there are any threads worthy of participation. In discussions with Kristy, I know she is very passionate about the issues she brings forward and would love the chance to exchange experiences and ideas with other women on these subjects.
If the women get their own section, doesn't that warrant a new section for various other uniqueness?
-Fat guy section
-Fat women section
-Blonde not so fat guys
-Blonde not so fat women
-Unicycle Riding Black trans genders
-Sunglass wearing online poker players
-Wheelchair poker athletes
-Visually impaired
-Visible minority
-Mullet dudes who are confused about their heritage
All of the above have their own unique issues and problems facing them on the felt. The one thing that is common to all? They all play poker. Who gives a rats ass if they are women, men, asian, black, fat etc?
If you play your opponent based on gender or any other factor other than their perceived play, then you will be crushed to the felt when the cards fly. And if you think for a second that just because you are a female you have "unique" situations, then you are sadly mistaken. We are all poker players, we all face the same situations day in and day out.
Who gives a rats ass if they are women, men, asian, black, fat etc?
obv you don't and that is ok for you. you aren't the one raising the issue, though are you? and i don't believe this is strictly what goes on AT the poker table that kristy was talking about.
you've clearly put a lot of energy into your post to thoroughly ridicule the idea behind the original post but really you only further the argument of the need for this discussion. (i do have to give you props - it is funny.)
if a friend came to you and said 'i have an issue. i need to discuss it with you' would you say 'no you don't' and turn them away?
how can any MAN instantly dismiss the notion that women have no issues advancing in the poker world? are you that 'in tune' with your feminine side, dr phil? if ONE woman says she has no issues, does that mean NO women have ANY issues to discuss?
this is not our (i.e. men) battle to fight. it is assinine for men to be involved in a woman's issues thread but it seemed like kristy was not being heard above all the bullshit. if other women won't speak up that is a damn shame.
Kanga is a lucky woman to be married to such a wonderful man if she hasn't faced at least some challenges in getting to the level she's at in poker. (I'm half serious - I do think you are a great guy, Trev. And Jenn is a great poker player, too.) I will go out on a limb and say not all women are in the same boat.
Thank you - I think we're both lucky. However, the way I treat Jenn isn't the issue. There are dozen of other guys she has had to play with and interact with, and they have always shown here respect. There was one incident which occurred at Lou's and a couple guys stood up for her, so it wasn't an issue. Maybe the problem is that we have been lucky to get involved in poker through a group of respectful and understanding players and have not seen the problems others have experienced. This is something I thank the KW poker community (and those who travel here) for. This is also why I don't know what the issues are - I've never seen them...
I'm an insensitive oaf and I can think of a number of potential challenges off the top of my head to be faced (isolation, image, intimidation, disrespect, family responsibilities, lack of sponsorship, bankroll requirements, travel, threat of robbery, rape - need I go on?) but I don't want to clutter this thread by going into detail. Hopefully these can become the subjects of a number of threads that WOMEN are interested in discussing. Sure, I've faced some of these challenges too (especially when Cam is around...) but I'm sure not to the same extent ANY woman would have. These are relevant issues that should be discussed.
Do working women have to deal with family responsibilities or only poker-playing women? Is rape only an issue for those who play poker? I don't dispute that special issues exist for women, I simply fail to see why a poker forum is the place to deal with them (unless they are unique to poker, and only AJ has provided an example). There are other places to discuss these general woman's issues - I'm thinking of a woman's issues forum here (rather than a poker forum ).
AJ, who are you or I to dismiss the concept? It is up to the women here to decide if they want to support the idea. SO SPEAK UP LADIES AND BE HEARD!
You're right, who are we to say anything. We should only dismiss ideas we disagree with if they are from spammers, or people requesting a few pennies on Stars, or somebody who plays in free bar tournaments, or BBC. But if a lady suggests something we disagree with, we should keep our mouths shut. As men, we should treat them with kid gloves and be quiet rather than treat them the same way we treat everyone else. This is how we show them respect - by discriminating against them. I was obviously mistaken in my belief that the most respectful way to treat them is honestly and as I would treat anyone else. Thank you for pointing out "who am I". I am man so I better not offer women any ideas, support, or disagreement - that would be sexist.
Nope. If a man made a claim that I didn't understand or see, I might ask for an example so I could better understand what the heck they were talking about. But since it is a woman making that claim, I should simply accept it as true and not question it.
I'm glad I understand how to be an enlightened male now...
I really toiled about how best to respond to you ONE LAST TIME on this subject. I'm officially angry, I think you are being unreasonable..and persist IN posting in a thread not created for you for one of two reasons.
You're finishing the fight that someone close to you tried to start (which would explain your contradictory view points and non-sensical posts)
or more likely
You derive some form of satisfaction out of dominating and hijacking this thread.
I'll try and keep this to the point because I cannot be expansive AND polite.
1) I stated three days ago that I wasn't sure how to explain the concept that women face unique challenges any more simply than I already have. Go back and re-read the thread if you are confused.
2) If you are, as you have stated, confused...how are you able to dismiss my feelings? Thats a HUGE contradiction..that effectively demonstrates how weak your position in this thread is...your position is "I don't understand at all..but you are definately wrong"
3) Why are you posting so much in a thread that is in no way shape or form intended for you? And particularly why are you bogging this thread down with your own shortcomings. (like I said..go reread, maybe ask once..but if you can't keep up its not my problem.)
4) Your idea that this belongs in a 'womans issues forum' is the most absurd suggestion of all. Do you honestly expect me to believe that on a site where people can sell golf clubs I have no right to discuss gender specific issues as they relate to poker?
I have NO OBLIGATION TO CREATE A THREAD YOU ARE INTERESTED IN OR CAN UNDERSTAND. I'm nice enough to try a couple times to help you catch up, but thats as far as it goes.
You said you wanted some specific anecdotal experience of challenges to women:
How about your seeming idea that I must somehow prove to an over-bearing man that my question to WOMEN has merit before the conversation can be continued?
50 responses, a half a million views, and you've jumped in and decided that I must defend my sex(and the right to believe that we are different)... and you're going to deny that there is additional pressure to being a woman in poker?
I cannot believe that men here have the audacity to oppose that a secure 'women only' board might lessen or ease the transition for other women on this board from lurker to poster. I've been here only a short time..but I can say confidently that I understand fully why there aren't many other women creating threads or sharing strong opinions.
I really toiled about how best to respond to you ONE LAST TIME on this subject. I'm officially angry, I think you are being unreasonable..and persist IN posting in a thread not created for you for one of two reasons.
Why would I respond? Originally to try and carry on a meaningful conversation on the subject you brought up. More recently, because various posters have directly questioned or responded to me. You alone have questioned me 4 separate times. I thought that this warranted a response. Even this last post from you contains many erroneous assumptions and attacks on me, but the same post makes it very clear that if I respond to them I will somehow be out of line.
However, I'll let your response stand, and I'll leave your questions and attacks on me unanswered, since that is what you really want. Hopefully those who know me will realize that by not defending myself I am in no way acknowledging any of this slander against my character as being true.
I will refrain from posting in your thread as requested, and allow you to carry on a one-sided debate without any dissenting viewpoints. If you like, I will go so far as to delete my posts from your thread so your comments can stand unopposed, just PM me (since I won't be visiting this thread again).
Beanie is being lynched for validly pointing out the the orginal poster has no concrete examples in "her" thread. IMO, he hasn't said anything remotely disrespectful/out of line, yet he's getting lynched because he doesn't agree with the OP (and the fact that he's not a women clearly means that he is not qualified to make an insightful response).
While Kristi may be right that Beanie doesn't have to respond to a post he disagrees with, he is surely entitled to do so. It's a forum. You don't "own" a thread. By your same argument, you don't need to read his rebuttal if you can't handle the fact that, in fact, there was very little substance to the original post.
As a few posters have alluded to, if you take perspective from an online game, there are poker players; there is no race, no gender, no religion, no sexual preference, whatever... There's LAGs, calling stations, TAGs, rocks and maniacs...
Live, I may concede that people may have preconceptions about certain players based on race, gender and age. Without a read on a new player, I think most will go from experience on how certain types of players are "typically" apt to play. By no means do I think this is correct, but poker is a game of incomplete information, so you do the best you can...
The idea of a women's issues section seems ridiculously excessive. This is a poker forum. God forbid we should discuss poker. This is really closer to being "Off-topic" than in the "General poker" section.
As far as creating a fuzzy section where people aren't criticized (constructively). Maybe we should simply create a beginner's section or a "Kid gloves" section. If you're not willing to accept criticism then you aren't really looking to improve anyways...
Beanie is being lynched for validly pointing out the the orginal poster has no concrete examples in "her" thread.
No he's being lynched for asking the same question over and over again...despite having been given answers to the best of a series of posters abilities. Those answers are then dismissed on weak reasoning from him...then he resumes asking over and over again. Look back, seven pages worth and he's yet to sincerely consider an answer.
there was very little substance to the original post.
agreed, a very clever man who's advice and input I often seek asks me at the beginning of serious conversations "do you want a solution or are you just spinning your wheels" The OP is an instance in which I was "spinning my wheels" hoping to open a casual discussion with WOMEN.
The idea of a women's issues section seems ridiculously excessive. This is a poker forum. God forbid we should discuss poker. This is really closer to being "Off-topic" than in the "General poker" section.
I believe my OP was specific to poker..the evolution as such you cannot hold me responsible for.
By "women's issues, I would use it to voice those that pertain to poker. Problems/Perks at the table, lifestyle, and societal pressure specifically as they relate to the game... I'm not suggesting we be given free range to discuss ALL women's issues with on said board. Were it created I would say a girl who wants to swap recipes or talk about her period still belongs in a different forum (or at least the off topic lounge). It just would be nice to discuss these poker things in a place that is 'safe' from you men. You certainly can't argue the idea that I may wish to discuss poker with women...and an exclusive title of "FOR THE GIRLS" is apparently not enough to buy me that luxury.
If you're not willing to accept criticism then you aren't really looking to improve anyways...
have I asked for OR received criticism here?
It seems like more of a mind numbing attempt to catch up the dissenters who really have no stake in the conversation..and can not be working very hard to develop a position, as most of the arguments have been weak and blind at best. And in doing so the topic has been bogged down in series of attacks and defences..rather than a discussion of meaningful ways to ease the transition of women into poker..which is what the original evolution was.
I believe my title made it abundantly clear that if there were WOMEN who wished to discuss poker with me- I would very much like to hear from them.
Please continue to PM at will girls.
And in doing so the topic has been bogged down in series of attacks and defences..rather than a discussion of meaningful ways to ease the transition of women into poker..which is what the original evolution was.
You're right there has been little discussion. And I had no intention of wading into this thread. Frankly I didn't think I had much to contribute (I'm a guy), and it didn't overly interest me (partly because I couldn't understand the point of the OP). On one hand, it seemed like the OP was annoyed that there wasn't enough "women's" poker literature, to which most of the forum replied "Why does it matter if you're a woman, there's plenty of useful literature for poker beginners in general".
I only felt like replying when people started arguing about who is entitled to post a reply to a thread that clearly doesn't concern them. That annoyed me. I assume I'm not the only one here that doesn't like being told what to do (or what not to do).
If the original intention was to promote women discussing poker related issues, by all means, go ahead. You may even inadvertantly spread some insight to the rest of us...
Comments
You can't have your cake and eat it too.
I look at anyone at my table as a poker player first, then I categorize them by how I feel they play, Weak, Tight, Passive etc. Gender doesn't come into it unless as Joe said, she looks like Jennifer Titty.
First: I was challenging the forum readers to find a link that is woman specific and informative. Meaning said link didn't treat us as frivelously attempting to impress our boyfriends, fathers, male friends. I'm not eating the cake here..just attempting to find out if there even IS cake.
Second: I don't remember asking to be treated as an equal..I believe I stated (repeatedly) that women face UNIQUE challenges and should be supported in their specific obstacles to become an enthusiastic and learned player.
LOL>Man I hope "Jenifer Titty" was a typo..I can't even wrap my head around the type of sadism required to post such a pun in the dominant 'girl power' type thread! I presume you're the proud owner of ball clamps and a full body leather suit.
I really do feel passionately about this subject feel free to challenge me again. I believe my points are fair and reasonable..admittedly idealistic, and with a blind eye towards the very PC mentality that we are equal. My contention is that we may have an entitlement to equality but society as a flawed whole can never obtain that..attempting to level the playing field and the nature vs. nurture differences as they pertain to a particular section (in this case poker) is the best we can do.
Would the non-believers also debate the merit of such female initiatives as: the push with in schools to increase the presence of women in male dominated subjects...ie: sciences, math and the 'shop' type classes?
dammit, long winded again!
Great Idea Moose.. Kanga what do you think.. Any other ladies interested in a say once a month tourney just for us.. We could have a point system or something and make it a regular thing . without the men. Set it up with a year end tourney. I was thinking a buy in of say 50 dollars, first second third pay out each month. keeping 10 dollars of that for the final tourney to be award first second third and depending on how many ladies and how much money maybe fourth and fifth.. what do you thing ???
Our group prefers a fine gold tequila paired with some nice Afghani shish
I'm still looking for a direct answer to my request for something poker and gender specific, anything to demonstrate the "unique problems" alluded to but not presented in the OP.
Barring anything poker-related, I'm going to bow out of this conversation. I'm not really interested in discussing a male-dominated world on a POKER forum, but I don't mind discussing almost anything live (Kristy, you can attack me next time we play
Sounds to me like you're looking for quantifiable evidence to support the op, but how can one quantify an attitude? I might be off base, but isn't that the basis for any discrimination in any field? Unless there is a study out there specifically on female poker players and the challenges they face, I don't think you will find any evidence to either support or deny. However, just because there isn't any evidence to support it doesn't suggest it doesn't exist, and believe otherwise is like playing with blinders on. It's there, and like discrimination in ANY form, you don't have to look hard to find it.
Sorry, Trevor, I normally agree with alot of your way of thinking, but I believe you're ignoring truth due to lack of evidence in this matter.
Don't be sorry AJ - I expect people to disagree with me (quite often, actually) and I don't take it personally. This is how we learn and grow. And as smart as I think I am sometimes, I can be pretty dumb too - I'm not perfect (yet
I'm not necessarily looking for evidence (even anecdotes or examples would be nice) but what I am looking for is something related to poker. Saying that woman get flack for going out is true without respect to poker. I've been very surprised at how many women are not allowed to go out to a Tupperware party by their husbands because they are expected to stay at home with the family. I'm not disputing that discrimination against women occurs, but that's a very broad topic. The OP stated that there are unique problems for women in poker and I'm wondering what they are - even a description would be nice. So far the problems have been either problems women have in a number of areas (due to our culture), or problems all poker players have. If Kristy has experienced problems getting into poker unique to women I'm honestly interested in knowing what they are. I can't offer suggestions otherwise, and it's even possible that I could be unwittingly doing some of the things that cause these offenses (and I can't correct what I don't know about).
I don't see how I can be considered "ignoring truth" if none has been presented which meets the criteria from the OP. I'm not denying they are there but I simply don't know what they are, and nobody has described any so far.
The only worthwhile reading in that whole post.
Yes, I do have a full body leather suit, but I only wear it for high stakes tournys, $20 and up. Wanna host one so I can wear it?
Sorry if I offended you with my Jennifer Titty "typo", if you offend that easily maybe you should grow some balls.
I have personally seen women in a poker game get targetted and bullied by male opponents for no other reason that I could see other than the fact they were female. And one time I even overheard a fellow player comment how much he would love to be seated in a tournament at a table filled with women, because he could 'dominate' and build a huge stack for final table.
On the flip side, I have also witnessed women use sex appeal to lure male opponents into traps or to prevent them from making moves, simply but a rather nice smile, and the poor bastard melted to it.
I guess one could argue that it's just another piece of information a player can use to take advantage of another player, regardless of gender, and for the most part, it's the young and inexperienced that either believe the first argument above or fall victim to the second. Still, I do think women face challenges in this game over and above a beginner male would.
I'd love to be at a table of women + this guy - sounds like he'd be an ATM. Personally I've never seen anything like this (and it would surprise me to see, considering where I play
I forgot that Amanda plays at Ching Hill now
I think that was original point of the OP Trevor, the fact that women players are considered weak and inexperienced, regardless of how much they actually know about the game. It's a common train of thought that MOST women players are weak players by most, albeit younger, male players.
Anyone who wants to see how weak and inexperienced women players actually are, can come out any Thursday night to my place and get re educated in a hurry!
lol.."high stakes" YUP I'll host - and we'll charge $21.50...if we can get enough players to ante up such a monster offering.
not offended by the "Jennifer Titty" I 'lol'd and I meant it. I'm overlooking the 'only worthwhile reading...' since I believe you think I was attempting to somehow put you down rather than having a good laugh. Let me know, if you're actually looking for a re-slam -I'll try to oblige my new favourite sadist.
I also noticed something from Beanie suggesting I was attacking? (or were you simply implying that I COULD do so live?) I am not. In fact I stated a rather simple opinion..intent on discussing the aformentioned challenges/benefits with women politely and respectfully and finding strong women sites and references (or if they exist?) WITH WOMEN.
I'm opinionated but I believe that by the time I state something strongly- I've put enough thought into a subject for it to be fair for me to confidently and strongly say "this is how I feel."
This doesn't mean that I believe I'm never wrong..but if you're looking to change my mind easily and that is your measure of success- you will probably be disappointed by any debate with me (though perhaps, the ones that roll over and weakly accept the pressure of the majorities vote should also be disappointing?)
I will most likely continue to state my opinion confidently and strongly..I AM listening to what you say-I simply hold a different view. One that I have, to the best of my abilities, sincerely thought through and spent time on.
Kristy
(I'm out of my mind with tiredness..hope those sentences gel well enough to explain my feelings with respect..if ot I'll bring on the edit tomorrow)
Anyone who doesn't think women face challenges advancing in the poker world has their head 'in the sand'. I'm not talking about just becoming a respectable home game player. I mean advancing into the semi-pro or pro ranks. Sure, for many of these, they are societal issues. (And some may be unique to poker, too.) Who cares? Does that not make them worthy of discussion by female poker players to determine strategies relevant to their situation?
Beanie are you serious that you need examples? Kanga is a lucky woman to be married to such a wonderful man if she hasn't faced at least some challenges in getting to the level she's at in poker. (I'm half serious - I do think you are a great guy, Trev. And Jenn is a great poker player, too.) I will go out on a limb and say not all women are in the same boat.
I'm an insensitive oaf and I can think of a number of potential challenges off the top of my head to be faced (isolation, image, intimidation, disrespect, family responsibilities, lack of sponsorship, bankroll requirements, travel, threat of robbery, rape - need I go on?) but I don't want to clutter this thread by going into detail. Hopefully these can become the subjects of a number of threads that WOMEN are interested in discussing. Sure, I've faced some of these challenges too (especially when Cam is around...) but I'm sure not to the same extent ANY woman would have. These are relevant issues that should be discussed.
Kristy is looking for a few other women interested in sharing their experiences. But women have to be encouraged to participate. I don't believe the bulk of responses in this thread would be in the 'encouraging' category. What's up with that? I guess that is only 'natural'. Look at women getting the vote, going to work, becoming doctors, lawyers, firefighters and police, entering into the armed forces, etc. I guess this is to be expected when women start participating in male-dominated pursuits. All I can say is: Resistance is futile.
(As an interesting aside, my wife's grandmother supported her family with poker winnings during the depression in the Prairies after their crops were destroyed in the dust storms. Now there's a role model!)
The original post asked for links to resources that could help to address this. I do not know of any. It has been suggested to start up a "women only" forum here. I think that would be a good start. Kristy, my suggestion is to send a pm to sloth and see if he is willing to set one up. (He's a pretty enlightened guy, after all. He can spot a profitable opportunity.) I hope this will encourage women to be more active on the forum. And maybe some of the neaderthals, including me, can become a bit more enlightened.
I've said my piece. Flame away, boys.
But separating the female player from the rest of us is touching on reverse discrimination in my train of thought, and I for one cannot condone it.
Jesus, if we were all only allowed to use false names, no pics, and only play online, we would be playing poker with a group of poker players, not Guys/Girls Night Out functions.
Yes, women have challenges, but really, who doesnt'? Can anyone say that they are so far advanced with their game that they can't improve on it in some way?
Kristy has brought up issues she believes are relevant to her and other women. Could these be discussed in a general forum? Yes - if people treat the topics seriously and don't just 'poo-poo' them. Would it be simpler if they were in a single forum where concerned women could easily focus on issues relevant to them? (and maybe with a moderator who would delete posts/ban abusers...) Of course! Would it water down the forum if these posts were separate? Perhaps slightly.
I do hope women here can be encouraged to participate more fully. I know there are a lot of lurkers out there, perhaps too intimidated to participate or not feeling there are any threads worthy of participation. In discussions with Kristy, I know she is very passionate about the issues she brings forward and would love the chance to exchange experiences and ideas with other women on these subjects.
ok... now i'm up to 2 comments.
I'll support whatever direction the women members choose to explore.
And yes, Kristy and El would make GREAT moderators should it be decided.
-Fat guy section
-Fat women section
-Blonde not so fat guys
-Blonde not so fat women
-Unicycle Riding Black trans genders
-Sunglass wearing online poker players
-Wheelchair poker athletes
-Visually impaired
-Visible minority
-Mullet dudes who are confused about their heritage
All of the above have their own unique issues and problems facing them on the felt. The one thing that is common to all? They all play poker. Who gives a rats ass if they are women, men, asian, black, fat etc?
If you play your opponent based on gender or any other factor other than their perceived play, then you will be crushed to the felt when the cards fly. And if you think for a second that just because you are a female you have "unique" situations, then you are sadly mistaken. We are all poker players, we all face the same situations day in and day out.
End of rant.
you've clearly put a lot of energy into your post to thoroughly ridicule the idea behind the original post but really you only further the argument of the need for this discussion. (i do have to give you props - it is funny.)
if a friend came to you and said 'i have an issue. i need to discuss it with you' would you say 'no you don't' and turn them away?
how can any MAN instantly dismiss the notion that women have no issues advancing in the poker world? are you that 'in tune' with your feminine side, dr phil? if ONE woman says she has no issues, does that mean NO women have ANY issues to discuss?
this is not our (i.e. men) battle to fight. it is assinine for men to be involved in a woman's issues thread but it seemed like kristy was not being heard above all the bullshit. if other women won't speak up that is a damn shame.
lather, rinse, repeat.
Thank you - I think we're both lucky. However, the way I treat Jenn isn't the issue. There are dozen of other guys she has had to play with and interact with, and they have always shown here respect. There was one incident which occurred at Lou's and a couple guys stood up for her, so it wasn't an issue. Maybe the problem is that we have been lucky to get involved in poker through a group of respectful and understanding players and have not seen the problems others have experienced. This is something I thank the KW poker community (and those who travel here) for. This is also why I don't know what the issues are - I've never seen them...
Do working women have to deal with family responsibilities or only poker-playing women? Is rape only an issue for those who play poker? I don't dispute that special issues exist for women, I simply fail to see why a poker forum is the place to deal with them (unless they are unique to poker, and only AJ has provided an example). There are other places to discuss these general woman's issues - I'm thinking of a woman's issues forum here (rather than a poker forum
You're right, who are we to say anything. We should only dismiss ideas we disagree with if they are from spammers, or people requesting a few pennies on Stars, or somebody who plays in free bar tournaments, or BBC. But if a lady suggests something we disagree with, we should keep our mouths shut. As men, we should treat them with kid gloves and be quiet rather than treat them the same way we treat everyone else. This is how we show them respect - by discriminating against them. I was obviously mistaken in my belief that the most respectful way to treat them is honestly and as I would treat anyone else. Thank you for pointing out "who am I". I am man so I better not offer women any ideas, support, or disagreement - that would be sexist.
Nope. If a man made a claim that I didn't understand or see, I might ask for an example so I could better understand what the heck they were talking about. But since it is a woman making that claim, I should simply accept it as true and not question it.
I'm glad I understand how to be an enlightened male now...
I really toiled about how best to respond to you ONE LAST TIME on this subject. I'm officially angry, I think you are being unreasonable..and persist IN posting in a thread not created for you for one of two reasons.
You're finishing the fight that someone close to you tried to start (which would explain your contradictory view points and non-sensical posts)
or more likely
You derive some form of satisfaction out of dominating and hijacking this thread.
I'll try and keep this to the point because I cannot be expansive AND polite.
1) I stated three days ago that I wasn't sure how to explain the concept that women face unique challenges any more simply than I already have. Go back and re-read the thread if you are confused.
2) If you are, as you have stated, confused...how are you able to dismiss my feelings? Thats a HUGE contradiction..that effectively demonstrates how weak your position in this thread is...your position is "I don't understand at all..but you are definately wrong"
3) Why are you posting so much in a thread that is in no way shape or form intended for you? And particularly why are you bogging this thread down with your own shortcomings. (like I said..go reread, maybe ask once..but if you can't keep up its not my problem.)
4) Your idea that this belongs in a 'womans issues forum' is the most absurd suggestion of all. Do you honestly expect me to believe that on a site where people can sell golf clubs I have no right to discuss gender specific issues as they relate to poker?
I have NO OBLIGATION TO CREATE A THREAD YOU ARE INTERESTED IN OR CAN UNDERSTAND. I'm nice enough to try a couple times to help you catch up, but thats as far as it goes.
You said you wanted some specific anecdotal experience of challenges to women:
How about your seeming idea that I must somehow prove to an over-bearing man that my question to WOMEN has merit before the conversation can be continued?
50 responses, a half a million views, and you've jumped in and decided that I must defend my sex(and the right to believe that we are different)... and you're going to deny that there is additional pressure to being a woman in poker?
I cannot believe that men here have the audacity to oppose that a secure 'women only' board might lessen or ease the transition for other women on this board from lurker to poster. I've been here only a short time..but I can say confidently that I understand fully why there aren't many other women creating threads or sharing strong opinions.
However, I'll let your response stand, and I'll leave your questions and attacks on me unanswered, since that is what you really want. Hopefully those who know me will realize that by not defending myself I am in no way acknowledging any of this slander against my character as being true.
I will refrain from posting in your thread as requested, and allow you to carry on a one-sided debate without any dissenting viewpoints. If you like, I will go so far as to delete my posts from your thread so your comments can stand unopposed, just PM me (since I won't be visiting this thread again).
Maybe going, and them leafers look pretty good against Buffalo, handing them their first loss in regulation.
My take:
Beanie is being lynched for validly pointing out the the orginal poster has no concrete examples in "her" thread. IMO, he hasn't said anything remotely disrespectful/out of line, yet he's getting lynched because he doesn't agree with the OP (and the fact that he's not a women clearly means that he is not qualified to make an insightful response).
While Kristi may be right that Beanie doesn't have to respond to a post he disagrees with, he is surely entitled to do so. It's a forum. You don't "own" a thread. By your same argument, you don't need to read his rebuttal if you can't handle the fact that, in fact, there was very little substance to the original post.
As a few posters have alluded to, if you take perspective from an online game, there are poker players; there is no race, no gender, no religion, no sexual preference, whatever... There's LAGs, calling stations, TAGs, rocks and maniacs...
Live, I may concede that people may have preconceptions about certain players based on race, gender and age. Without a read on a new player, I think most will go from experience on how certain types of players are "typically" apt to play. By no means do I think this is correct, but poker is a game of incomplete information, so you do the best you can...
The idea of a women's issues section seems ridiculously excessive. This is a poker forum. God forbid we should discuss poker. This is really closer to being "Off-topic" than in the "General poker" section.
As far as creating a fuzzy section where people aren't criticized (constructively). Maybe we should simply create a beginner's section or a "Kid gloves" section. If you're not willing to accept criticism then you aren't really looking to improve anyways...
End rant.
No he's being lynched for asking the same question over and over again...despite having been given answers to the best of a series of posters abilities. Those answers are then dismissed on weak reasoning from him...then he resumes asking over and over again. Look back, seven pages worth and he's yet to sincerely consider an answer.
agreed, a very clever man who's advice and input I often seek asks me at the beginning of serious conversations "do you want a solution or are you just spinning your wheels" The OP is an instance in which I was "spinning my wheels" hoping to open a casual discussion with WOMEN.
I believe my OP was specific to poker..the evolution as such you cannot hold me responsible for.
By "women's issues, I would use it to voice those that pertain to poker. Problems/Perks at the table, lifestyle, and societal pressure specifically as they relate to the game... I'm not suggesting we be given free range to discuss ALL women's issues with on said board. Were it created I would say a girl who wants to swap recipes or talk about her period still belongs in a different forum (or at least the off topic lounge). It just would be nice to discuss these poker things in a place that is 'safe' from you men. You certainly can't argue the idea that I may wish to discuss poker with women...and an exclusive title of "FOR THE GIRLS" is apparently not enough to buy me that luxury.
have I asked for OR received criticism here?
It seems like more of a mind numbing attempt to catch up the dissenters who really have no stake in the conversation..and can not be working very hard to develop a position, as most of the arguments have been weak and blind at best. And in doing so the topic has been bogged down in series of attacks and defences..rather than a discussion of meaningful ways to ease the transition of women into poker..which is what the original evolution was.
I believe my title made it abundantly clear that if there were WOMEN who wished to discuss poker with me- I would very much like to hear from them.
Please continue to PM at will girls.
Really? WTF - are you sure? That just blew my mind. I won't be able to even play a poker hand for the next 48 hours.
You're right there has been little discussion. And I had no intention of wading into this thread. Frankly I didn't think I had much to contribute (I'm a guy), and it didn't overly interest me (partly because I couldn't understand the point of the OP). On one hand, it seemed like the OP was annoyed that there wasn't enough "women's" poker literature, to which most of the forum replied "Why does it matter if you're a woman, there's plenty of useful literature for poker beginners in general".
I only felt like replying when people started arguing about who is entitled to post a reply to a thread that clearly doesn't concern them. That annoyed me. I assume I'm not the only one here that doesn't like being told what to do (or what not to do).
If the original intention was to promote women discussing poker related issues, by all means, go ahead. You may even inadvertantly spread some insight to the rest of us...
If BBC_Z were to respond to this thread. Now THAT would be some funky shit!
BTW Scooby, quality posts. Your best ones IMO.
True, although it might merely earn a "YAWN". How sad is it that we have to reminisce about the good 'ole BBC days?
Thanks. Too bad it had nothing to do with poker...