For the girls (again)
Kristy_Sea wrote: »We're a distinctive category of players..and its a sub-section that lately and uncharacteristically I find myself embarassed to be part of.
Why do you say you're embarrased?
Kristy_Sea wrote: »We're a distinctive category of players..and its a sub-section that lately and uncharacteristically I find myself embarassed to be part of.
Comments
I believe its fair to make an argument that without the proper links, women are naturally barred from advancement with in poker and as such the largest demographic of players is-and will remain-novices. The forum Everyman is a good deal off the mainstream with respect to encouraging the women in their lives to play - the steps and support systems to encourage a woman to grow as a player are, for the most part, non-existant (certainly my mother and girlfriends don't consider Poker to be a part of well planned bonding experience as an example)
Did imply I was looking for sympathy? Is it possible, Sir that you perceive me to want it based on the fact that I'm a woman?
Ask yourself were I an african-canadian player would you be so hesitant to allow me the freedom to discuss racism within poker? I think there is a strong parallel between the issues.
Have these posts gone out of order for anyone else?
I'm embarrassed in a variety of ways..
Specifically last night I watched a 'Womens Open' that I had pvr'd (don't know what date it originally aired if someone wants to talk specifics-CGTV show) I think I spent half the show yelling "BET" or "RAISE" at the television -yes I yell at my television- and THEN I saw the woman poker player site.
As memory serves, the women were playing for a top prize of $40,000..and the specific show I mentioned was the runner-up show for $6,000 winner take all.
white rabbit: wings go over great at my poker game for snacks. So do ribs and I make them..... What snacks did the book recommend?
LOL!!!!
Releases the hounds
First question Kristy what are your goals in poker? To be a great poker player or to be a great female poker player?
I have been reading some of your post and find them rather degrading, as a female player. I am not looking for special treatment or preference just because I am a women. If men what to treat you differently because you are female- great take their money and be happy.
As far are saying we are a "sub-section" of players, that is ridicules. Should there be different sub sections for old? young? black? white? WE are all players that is what the focus should be.
Are you looking for books/ sites on how to use you female charms at the tables or to improve? What exactly are you looking for? I don't understand what the need to is find books for female players? I want to read books that are going to help me grow are a player.
I totally agree with Kyle- authors like Harrington, sklansky or Gordon are not just for male players. If you want a more challenging read then a female poker magazines then pick up a poker book.
If you want to be taken seriously and competitive then let your skill show and stop using the female crutch to lean on.
That's my 2 cents....
There is a strong parallel, but I think the same arguments would be made. Everyone has the right to believe they are being discriminated against, but that belief doesn't mean the discrimination is actually taking place. Do you think Ivey's upset because there's no "Ebony Bluff Magazine"?
As far as Kanga's post - :wav: (and use a spell-checker
Spoken like a spoiled child...
You forget that you have a 'poker partner' as referred to in the last 'girl' thread. Someone from whom you receive encouragement and support. You accessed the game through him and and the network of seemingly enlightened players on this forum. I however accessed the game through a series of chauvanistic men and have endured months of head patting and blatant and frustrating sexism, and truly would like to share this experience with someone who understands it (in a positive mutual support and community sense) I'm interested in building in the supports for the woman player without the benefits you seem to take for granted.
Alleging I'm leaning on a female 'crutch' is a gross overstatement. Kindly note that this post and the last post were directed exclusively AT WOMEN-- independant of men. I believe that those few who have played me should be able to attest to the fact that there is nothing weak/overly feminine about me at the table. That doesn't preclude me from believing that there are many social hurdles and frustrations that are unique to women players. I can not speak to the other groups but your suggestion that "We are all players" is lovely and I'm sure you look fantastic in your rose coloured glasses.
I'm not looking to up my status as either 'serious' or 'competitive' by these posts, I'm waxing poetic about building a system that doesn't leave women alienated and creates an inroad for them not contingent on their poker-partner-crutch.
My sincerest apologies for having been an 'annoyance' I however was sincerely excited by the prospect of meeting and talking to you and some of the other women on this forum.
I reserve the right to continue to wish that there were a complete path for women to advance easily to the ranks of enthusiastic player and student..if for no other reason than to help dull my feelings of being a bit of an outsider, and to help other women to share my enjoyment in the challenges of these games.
Change it back to the REAL way you said it Kanga..I've already quoted it- and at least its honest.
Are you attempting to further the conversation in changing your post..or simply attempting to win Hearts and Minds?
Best of luck to you
Honestly, it might help the conversation if you shared some of these unique challenges with us. I know I said it already, but a number of the problems you mention are not gender-based but affect men as well when we discuss poker with the mainstream. We are all treated differently because we're poker players, not because of our gender.
Here are ALL the subtitles under the section Poker tips:
Free Online Poker Lessons
Woman Poker Player Magazine with instructors from the Women’s Poker Club are offering free basic poker lessons.
Poker Hand Rankings - ranked highest to lowest
Odds of Getting any Hand in Five Cards
[eg.]Royal Flush 1 in 650,000
Basic Play of Texas Hold'em [this one actually defines what 'call' 'raise' and 'fold' are]
Starting Hands in Texas Hold’em – A Few Hints
How to Deposit Money Online
Thats it..the entirity of knowledge available to the woman player on their site. I've read the magazine a few times too, seems a little fluff and profile heavy.
I thought I'd toss out my particular feeling that these types of magazines, IMHO seem to really only weaken the position of ALL woman players. Encouraging girls to play- but never well. It seems as though ALL the 'woman' sites and articles are just enough to impress your boyfriend and his buddies, but not enough to contend seriously and become a real and enthusiastic player.
I'd love someone to show me some 'girl' links that prove me wrong.
I am not debating that steps made to encourage accessibility to the game for new female players aren't necessary-rather that once we've got'em hooked there needs to be a continuation..something AFTER they've learned what a 'raise' is, and to build the 'communities' our sex is so adept at.
I vaguely remember someone saying in the last 'female' post that the only gender at their table was "cash" but, as I said before: I believe the game does present some unique opportunities and challenges for women. We're a distinctive category of players..and its a sub-section that lately and uncharacteristically I find myself embarassed to be part of.
Look at examples I briefly touched on..ie: Men play poker recreationally, its a positive for you. Then look at the inferences made about woman who play. They are engaging in an activity that is potentially unsafe and taking time away from their 'families' (I believe this was inferred in Moose's post- which was excellent..please don't take the quote as an attack)
In a contrasting sense there really isn't any way that I can see for you to argue that men are brought up to play and given the tools and supports to play well, with less resistance and more opportunity then woman.
The sexism and alternate hurdles exist despite your saying "not because of our gender" and your wife's "we are all poker players" (infact those sorts of 'head in sand' comments probably slow progress down)
I'm not suggesting a man can not offer some insight in poker, but respectfully, look at the responses here and tell me that men really understand the issues as I see them...I'm flattered that you think I'm so unique as to have an entirely new experience on an old planet with an old game...but I'm pretty sure there ARE other woman out there who either could share my experiences...or that there WOULD BE other woman who could (in addition to having a comparable amount of enjoyment playing it)
I believe I'm head and shoulders above you when it comes to levelling the playing field, simply by suggesting there should be ways in which women can catch up. If you'd like players to be equal you MUST acknowledge that they are different and that their feelings and experiences and challenges and needs are not necessarily from a cookie cutter.
a) opened her own account online and told her to play
b) gave her some books and told her to read them
c) took her to the casino and signed her up for a table
d) entered her into a local tourney and drove with her to the game
Now she is comfortable playing online at almost any limit, including sh and nl (which I don't play). She is fine going to a casino and playing on her own table, but she still wouldn't go to a casino by herself. As discussed before, there is no way she would go to a local tourney by herself. We feed off each other and support each other, enabling us to each become better players, than if we were alone.
Beanie, I point out the fact many threads ago that when someone started bad mouthing your wife during an online game that you tilted and felt the need to chat back to defend her. Frankly, knowing how much you respect, honour and protect your wife and kids, as Kristy says, I am surprised by the rose coloured view of your posts.
The men are the support system and as a strong role model in your family, no wonder your wife and kids enjoy playing. However without that support system in place, I believe, as Kristy does, that there are many barriers to women players entering the sport.
If somebody goes after my wife, I'll defend her. This is not a poker-related issue. I'd do it at the mall, the bar, or a hockey game. As far as a "rose coloured view", I'll be the first to admit I have a far different view of most things (not just poker) than most people. However, I am honestly trying to understand these "barriers", I just don't see them.
Why wouldn't she? Is it because there was something preventing her or because she didn't have the knowledge/interest (which you provided). Personally, I wouldn't be playing if a male friend hadn't sent me a link to the forum (due to the KWSOP fiasco). I don't think having someone close to you who helps get you into poker is a gender-specific issue.
I totally understand and agree, and I posted a while ago about how important I think a mentor and a buddy are. Having your spouse as a poker buddy is great, but it is possible to have somebody else. DrTyore is one of mine, and I remember Kristy mentioning a WPT pro coaches her. I fail to see this as a gender-specific issue.
I did not have a support system in place when I started, and my wife was leary of the whole poker thing until she learned more about it and got involved. I used the forum as a support system and developed some additional support when meeting forum members at various tournaments before I got a support system at home. Again, non gender-specific problem.
Ok - this is gender-specific, since you obviously don't mind you driving yourself home at 1am with lots of cash (like Wednesday night
I would REALLY appreciate if someone could clearly identify some for me (rather than just saying they exist) that are gender-specific and poker-related ...
Finally some good stuff out of you Trev because your posts to this point have been somewhat lacking.
I agree that in your multi-quote of my post that many of the points are not gender specific.
I point out that in your post, a male friend got you into the sport and you supported your wife into the sport. I think that kind of female/female interaction/support does not nearly exist in the same proportion as male/male and male/female. I think male or female we rarely stand up suddenly and decide to try something new, without having someone else to encourage us along the way. I am not saying that it doesn't exist and I am not saying there is some special barrier to a female encouraging another female to play poker. It just doesn't happen in the same proportion.
You say that you would protect your wife in any situation. I can't see a single female making a similar comment about another female or not nearly as often, at any rate. The fact is that males protect and look out for females. Women in general do not feel nearly as comfortable unless they are protected by a group. It is also safe to say that there are many males who do not respect women, who put up barriers to women players.
It is nice to say that everyone is equal and everyone is the same but my personal opinion is that women in general interact differently than men. Women are more social and group oriented. Men are more competition driven which plays a role in their social and group interactions. It is not impossible to find a woman who plays poker for exactly the same reasons as me. It is not impossible to find a man who plays poker for exactly the same reasons as my wife. But if we were to start grouping people together by reason, rather than sex I think you would find some of the groups would have a larger proportion of women and vice versa.
That would be impossible because your contention seems to be that if a Man or Woman has EVER experienced anything parallel in any field it automatically negates the idea that MOST woman face a set and characteristic obstacle/challenge/or maybe even benefit- within poker.
Reread your last post objectively, its a very weak argument.
(Nothing personal..I simply believe this to be true)
here is a little advice for you... First of all Joe is not my crutch.. Lets get this straight, when we go to games and play poker it is every man woman child person black white purple pink blue whatever they are against each other.. As far as I am concerned there is no sex in poker.. Although, What I have learned is... If you can use your sex to help you win some pots and screw with the men.. All the power to you.. Does this work... I would say only when you first arrive at a poker tournement where no one really knows you.. Have I personally used it.. I would have to say yes.. Does it work..For the first time yes.. after that no.. Then most men realize or other poker players .. That hey the new chick can play poker..
As for your good reading.. I will agree most woman magazines are just that women magazines no matter what the topic is... That is just the way of the world. I perfer to read poker books to magazines.. Although I have, read some pretty good articiles that others have told me about... Try trusting some of the people on this forum.. They will give you good advice, and welcome you to any home games that are happening..
I know we as women are the minority in this game, but If you have been paying attention. We are growing in numbers. For the most part, All the female players I have played against are very good. Most are in different stages of the game.. We are all different, and have different views on this subject, Please try to understand, that no all of us feel as you do.
Anyways, As usual I have strayed from the topic I wanted too...
Good reading, Try Read Annie Dukes Book, How I raised, Folded, Bluffed, Flirted, Curesed, and WON MILLIONS-- you can do it too...I found this book very good.. Try looking for other female poker players who have written books. Also, in one of Dolyes books, Jennifer harman, wrote a whole chapter on limit poker. NOt sure which book of Doyles it was, But i could find out for you if you like.. Ok comfirmed it is in super system two..
ok enough of this now.. The way I see it you have nothing to worry about, Most of us women on here are willing to talk. But we have to remeber to take criticism with a grain of salt. From what I have seen you are a very good poker player, I hope to play against you again in the future.
Sorry for any spelling mistakes in here.
Are there unique issues which you can share with us, or are you simply pointing out that woman and men are different (which is not unique to the game of poker).
Moose - if we started discussing your last post this thread would go way off topic
Thanks for a great response..I've read most of Doyles stuff..but I'll definately look up the Annie Duke book you've suggested.
I didn't mean to suggest that people with poker partners were in anyway colluding or slow rolling with in the tournaments-rather that the inherent support and mutual effort is a HUGE benefit with in your relationship. I'm doing the work alone that the two of you can accomplish together. If that makes more sense? (I know..I ramble and my thoughts get convoluted and difficult to follow-I swear to GOD I'm trying to be brief!)
Beanie,
I was trying to say that its the PROPORTION that makes it significant not the presence. eg if 1/100 men experience something and 88/100 woman experience the same thing..I believe it fair to consider it mainly a 'woman's issue' I'm not sure how to state my intentions, thoughts and desires for women in poker more clearly than I already have. Which parts are you having trouble with?
Feel free to debate/respond to Moose..I find it a breath of fresh air to see a man who 'gets it'
If I had not started dating Joe and watch him play poker online. I may not have become a poker player. But on the other hand, I may have, maybe not for real money, for fun yes, I have played online before I met Joe. But, I still stand to the fact that He is not and has never ever been my crutch. His attitude has always been you learn how to play, and play. If not dont bother. I will also go on to say that maybe in a way I do have an advantage over some women players as does Jen. Due to the fact that our spouses play the game. This goes for Mooses wife as well, and A few others. But let me tell you this once I learned the basics, I was and am left to my own devices as to how I play the game.
Is it to my personal advantage that Joe plays the game. Yes and No. We do discuss games and plays. Example, Right now I can not seem to win playing online. He has gone to the trouble to set guidelines for me. To show me where i make my mistakes in online play. Most of which I already know, but cannot seem to break the habit of doing. In this sense yes very much to my advantage to have him. Not so much to my advantage is when we do play against each other it is very hard due to the fact that he knows very well how I play.. Do I have an advantage in some ways yes I know how he plays his game as well. Does it help, not really, We have been at the same tables.. For the most part I try to stay out of his way, there is a few people who try to say out of his way.. I have lost many times going up against Joe. He has lost a few times going up against me. Somtimes I think I surprise him when I do call him.. And That my friends is POKER...
Some of the things you are saying makes perfect sense. Some not, this game like any other game, is not about men and women. Its about who is the best or who can win. And I will say it again, It does not matter what sex, nationality, or colour, you are.. We are all players who enjoy the game, and want to win. I beleive until you Kristi can get over the fact that you are a female, and begin to think of yourself as a person who plays poker, with others who play the game. You will always have issues with this. Who cares if some guys pat you on the head, Just remember when you take there money, to smile and nod, when they say it is just because your a girl. I love that line, because i want to play these people again and again.
Hope to see you out again sometime soon
I'm off on a tangent here..but I really thought this was interesting point. In your experience have you not found that people will play vs. you differently than they would a man at their table? I play as a man on one site and a woman on two others and the amount of 'respect' I'm given is widely varied and seemingly sex-related? I actually go so far as to sort players into sub-categories related to their reactions to me as a woman..as an extension of table image.
Look forward to playing against you again as well!
In my experience, Yes in live poker, the first time out some guys not all just think here is another female who wants to play poker and has no clue how to play hahahaha. Then they play against me and realize after I have taken there money that wow she can play.. I use this to my advantage, I will gladly take there money, and will encourage them to play against me. Until the finally realize and give me the respect that I should hava as a poker player. I will still play with them already knowing that I can make money from them.
As for online, I really dont think it is going to matter if your avartar is a male or female. Or how you put yourself out there. I find online poker players have no respect for anyone.. Most of them just think there the best and everyone else is just a donk.. Does not matter if you beat them with good or bad hands. I play alot of heads up online, not large limits but 5 dollar ones. And am now finding in order to find a partner I have to wait a long time before players will play me.. Some of the men I have played against and won from, do look for me to play just to see if they can win back the money I have won from them.. It happens, sometimes, and others the never come back. One thing I do with online playing heads up ismake a buddy list and make notes on the players I have played. So I know who I have played against and won and lost too.
In online poker that is very important to make these notes as I have learned.
The best advice anyone can give you, is to play your game and stop worrying so much about what others thing.. After all who gives a flying f$#k.. What they thing. As long as your happy with yourself .. Like I have said already you seem like a nice person, who just wants to meet new people doing something you like to do. And I think this is the most I have posted on one topic ever on here ... This is good maybe lol ... And I might add just get used to the way I type and never finish my sentences right and all that stuff..
Till next time ...
Kyle summarized it perfectly. These magazines are marketing magazines to attract woman to the game. After that, switch to a real (non gender-based) magazine.
Kristy I think at each of the last two tourneys I was at there were 6 women, representing roughly 1/4 of the field. I think that is pretty good representation and would likely be a higher than usual ratio for most tourneys in general. In short KW is a good place where female players are respected and encouraged to play.
I know in the past, JohnnieH's and STP's significant other has made it out along with my wife as well. My wife would play more if we had baby sitting that can stay for 5+ hours and into the wee hours of the morning but they just don't exist, especially on weeknights.
She won't go by herself so it is not a matter of me staying home and sending her out to Bristol's. Which is too bad because she usually does extremely well and I know should could qualify for the POY final if she could play more. It is not that she doesn't know that she can beat men but rather a safety and comfort issue. I know that I don't want her going to her car and driving home by herself at 1+ am in the morning, especially carrying large quantities of cash.
However I would suggest that I would support and encourage her to go play if someone would host a ladies only tourney with a daytime start. Perhaps Kanga would step up. It is a possibility for us to host but not likely until the spring at least.
Live:
1. Fun
2. Competition
3. Money
Online:
1. Money
2. Money
3. Fun
For me it would be:
Live:
1. Competition
2. Fun
3. Money
Online:
1. Money
2. Money
3. Fun
When the Legends tourney came up we both played. I couldn't wait for the tourney because I was looking forward to the competition. She played, because I wanted her to play but I could tell it wasn't her thing because she wasn't interested in competition nearly as much as I. However I can guarantee you that if we don't somehow find a babysitter for the Xmas Maddness, she will be very disappointed.
In short the reasons female's play/do not play, are many and varied. Opportunity, competition, fun/social, comfort and safety all play a factor. To generalize: For men, I don't think the same factors apply in nearly the same ratios as for female players.
Seriously I think all the points have been covered. There are quite a few very good women who play and have placed in the larger tourney's such as west side. Pink lady QT have final tabled several times. The last cook crew had approximately 6 or 7 I believe out of the 3 tables.
If you want to host a women only poker night Kristy good right ahead. If you need a dealer call me.
Actually I think I am right on topic. I don't think what I posted is specifically poker related but it is related to the barriers women face in general anytime they wish to participate in a male dominated event.
btw I came home and asked my wife why she played poker.
Answer:
1. because it is fun
2. I enjoy beating the other players
She never mentioned money.
I think all books/sites that cater to women really only focus on the social aspect of the game. Which is fine at first, but if we really want to learn how to play seriously we have to read the same stuff as the guys.
The only way I'm reading another women's poker book is when Jen Harman decides to write one.