By having 'stupid' laws the govt encourages disdain of 'good' laws too. I agree that the best way to go would be to get the govt to change the law, especially as it pertains to poker as opposed to gaming houses in general. Since I'm apathetic, I won't bother and I'll grudgingly pay a small fine should I happen to be 'found in'. Thank god there are a few out there who will fight insane laws. The world could use more of them.
Arguing that illegal things happen at poker rooms is a red herring. Illegal things happen at football games and rock concerts. And backyard BBQs. Yet they still go on. Besides, I've been to a number of card rooms and I really haven't noticed that much in the way of illegal activity. Outside of maybe smoking inside (yes tobacco!) I guess there could be some loan sharking but I haven't noticed it.
This is obviously a hot topic, but I think some of the responses are confusing the issue. Personally, I can see "themes" about the legality, morality, and enforcement surrounding this issue. The comments about other illegal things at these clubs and the loss of police manpower for "important stuff" are both pretty irrelevant, in my opinion.
As far as the legality, if the game was raked, it was illegal. Further, according to the criminal code, if you are found playing in one of these games, you are breaking the law. If you don't like the law, petition your government representative to change it (and hope there are enough other people doing the same thing). While you have the ability to break the law, you don't have the right to choose which laws apply to you. If you think a law is stupid/wrong/unjust, go ahead and break it, but be prepared to face the consequences. Civil disobedience is a tried and true way to get laws changed, but those who practice it must be prepared for the consequences while they are making their stand but before the laws are changed. I don't usually play in these underground clubs because even though I believe the law is stupid, I don't think this issue is important enough to me to take the risk.
Morality, yes the law is dumb, and I believe it should be changed. I have opinions on the casino monopoly it has created, and the lost tax revenues that could be realized by legalizing and regulating the game. However, these personal opinions have absolutely no impact on the law as it currently stands, they are simply opinions (this is where I think some confusion and anger stem from).
Enforcement is pretty simple. The police don't make laws, they enforce them. In order to enforce a law, they need somebody to do it. Specialists do better than "jacks of all trades", which is why the police have special divisions for homicide, burglary, child crimes, narcotics, etc. Since the law makes raked games illegal, they need to enforce the law. In order to do it more effectively, the have created a division for it. This is good - they are doing there job. If the law changes, they should stop, but for now, I congratulate them. As far as them spending their time better by dealing with drugs, etc., that is a red herring. The gaming division is not responsible for investigating narcotics, so they are not taking manpower away from there. I doubt the gaming division is very large compared to other crimes, but it does need to be there (since it is a law). Those who determine the areas of priority (government and police administration) have determined that this is an area that needs enforcement and have allocated a portion of their resources to it.
Kristy, your cigarette story is a perfect example. While I feel for what you and your family seem to have gone through, you lost me at "technically illegal". Bottom line, it was illegal although it wasn't necessarily immoral, and the law could be construed as stupid. Your uncle decided to practice civil disobedience and break the law, and he was punished for it. That's how our great country works, and I'm proud to live in it.
Not pointing any fingers (just as an interesting side-point), but I'm curious who has actually done anything about this. Who here has actually contacted and talked to the police, AGCO (or whatever it is in the other provinces), or lawyers about these laws? How many of us has taken the time to write our provincial and federal representatives to get poker legalized? Maybe if we spent as much time trying to change the law as we do complaining about it ...
As Kristy said, not enough people are taking this debate seriously. I'd go further and say not enough of us who take it seriously are actually taking action. Maybe we can use this as a wake-up call to actually do something. We may have little chance of changing things, but is apathy and anger really a better alternative?
EDIT: In case it isn't obvious, the reason for contacting the police/AGCO/lawyers is twofold. First, it educates you on what the law actually is AND how it is enforced (note that these are distinctly different). Second, it provides possible evidence if you are ever unfortunate enough to be charged ("I checked with Constable Bob and he said this specific instance was ok - written documention is obviously best, but written notes made during or immediately after a verbal conversation are good as well). Third, it lets them know that you are doing your best to be a law-abiding citizen rather than just blindly doing what you want (possible future brownie points if they ever visit you - maybe a warning instead of being charged).
Before I started hosting my home games, I consulted the AGCO (and posted the results of the conversation here on the forum), Waterloo Regional Police, the OPP (although the OPP has failed to respond to multiple written questions), and legal counsel. This can be considered either due diligence or overkill, your choice
There are coffee table books written on the subjects of unenforced and obscene laws.
I could go to the trouble of looking up a series of 'laws' on the books but not enforced..and many exist-but I'll simply assume that you all know this. That fact- in and of itself- sets a precedent for allowing certain laws to be 'overlooked' It is the fact that such a decision to let some laws be overlooked occurs and has no open process, that fuels my entire argument..I didn't create the grey areas, I just know they exist. Did they not I would be resigned to simply petitioning my government representatives as you mentioned. The alternative of regulation and changing laws could be argued as a misuse of another valuable resources, just the same as policing the law is.
Will you agree that simply letting this law go the way of the dinosaur would be a much simpler and more efficient way of change?
This country has the potential to be great and I enjoy living here..but that doesn't mean it is infalliable. At a time when we've recently endured debate over same-sex marriage, and there are people living that remember when women couldn't vote, and minorities lead difficult lives of inequality- I think its fair to say there is still much room and NEED for social change and evolution. Anyone who suggests that 'illegal is illegal' has their head in the sand..a clear and analytical look at the motivation for our governments actions IS mandatory and I'm sincerely unnerved by the level of apathy I find in these sorts of debates.
Keep your heads down, work hard and pay your death taxes kids.
Personally, I'm all for changing the law as it is now to something more beneficial and practical (ie..legalizing the gamea and taxing the benefits).
Trevor, as always, you make sound judgements in your posts, and I can't find any fault with anything you mentioned.
Do I detect a rallying cry? Are you willing to spearhead such a movement to change the rules? If so, count me in. I would like to see the rules changed as well, but for the most part have no idea how to go about doing it.
Do I detect a rallying cry? Are you willing to spearhead such a movement to change the rules? If so, count me in. I would like to see the rules changed as well, but for the most part have no idea how to go about doing it.
Count me in too..I'll be the angry letter girl, you let me know who to chew out besides my elected representatives, and I'm on it!
A bit of a rallying cry, but more on an individual basis. While I love poker, there are other issues which I consider far more worthy of spending significant time on. For poker, I simply resort to the more basic "write your rep".
As far as what to do, the main thing is to write your elected officials - all of them. Local doesn't have direct impact, but writing them lets them know what their constituents care about so they will discuss it when they meet with higher levels of government. Your MP (federal) has direct involvement since the Criminal Code is federal, but your MPP is important as well since the enforcement has been handed to the provinces (the AGCO for Ontario).
As far as what to write, "angry" letters are a no-no - they will usually get less credit. Also, be brief and to the point since they are busy people too. Remember that financial motivation will usually have more weight than emotional arguments (I mean tax dollars, not bribes ).
The main thing is that since most people don't make the effort to write in, each letter counts for a larger number of people. Minority groups continuously push somewhat unpopular stuff through simply because they are vocal (while the majority is passive and just whine about it). We (poker players) are a minority, but if enough of us actually stand up, they will take some notice.
While I love poker, there are other issues which I consider far more worthy of spending significant time on. For poker, I simply resort to the more basic "write your rep".
As far as what to write, "angry" letters are a no-no - they will usually get less credit.
We (poker players) are a minority, but if enough of us actually stand up, they will take some notice.
Are you falling back into apathy?
I think the discussion has expanded to encompass more than just poker specifically and is now including some protection against irrational and overbearing laws. It is based on a desire for personal freedoms and a government focused on the fundamentals of cohesive society and not, as I mentioned earlier, micromanaging our lives.
Seems 'worthy' of 'significant time' to me.
As for the angry letters bit, it was intended as a joke..but; agreed.
Not apathy but priority and time management. Given a 40-hour day I could devote myself to far more causes than I currently do. However, since I am limited to a mere 24-hour day, I must pick and choose based on which are most important to me and allocate my time accordingly.
Once I get the rest of the world fixed, I'll devote more time to this. For now, writing letters is enough...
Comparing laws against poker to that of laws that were racist or sexist is absurd. No one is being held down or prevented from making an honest living by making raked games illegal. If the people who run these establishments can't find any other work that is legal then they have bigger issues than we can discuss here. The illegal smuggling of cigarettes was not a "stick it to the man" operation. Unless they gave all they proceeds to charity, then I take it back. It was an opportunistic way of making money. Nothing more. I'm sorry your house was taken but they take homes from other criminals all the time and it is the children that get hurt. Don't blame the Government, blame the criminal.
As for resources to combat illegal gaming. There are other sides to some of these raked games that need to be dealt with. Simply turning a blind eye to it allows other opportunistic people to run clubs that may or may not always be on the up and up. I am not painting all clubs with this brush but you will find clubs that are using techniques to increase their rake. That is another reason why they need to be dealt with.
If put to a vote, I would vote to legalize poker and regulate it. Of course these regulations would put almost all of the clubs that are currently being run out of business too.
If we pick and choose which laws are "just" and which are not and chose to follow only those that we agree with there would be anarchy.
Write your letters make your protests but poker will never become legal. There are much bigger things on this world that need to be addressed long before poker is legalized.
I'm pretty done with this topic, having said more than my fair share, I think
I'm going to try to briefly respond to your post (as briefly as a loud mouth who feels passionate about a subject can anyway)
They didn't succeed in taking the house...$13,000 worth of lawyers fees and about a year later, they beat the 'proceeds of crime' charge, but I learned first hand the power that government has..and I'm frightened by it.
I was pretty young through most of this, but as I recall the main conversation at point of sale was:
how sick the government was for charging the way they did
People -given some reasonable option- preferred to buy legally. On that alone I will say that it is at worst a series of people compelled to act in an opportunistic way because the government did not allow a reasonable alternative (we both win ). I continue to accuse our government of micromanagement.
I'm thinking a little slice of Anarchy might be just what the Dr. ordered...I'm not talking about a lawless society in which a blind eye is turned towards the truly heinous crimes. I'd just like to believe that we as a whole are capable of making the minor decisions without the constant supervision from our parental government and the ever-present threat of a 'spanking'
That being said my last new toaster did come with a sticker attached to it depicting a person putting their fork in it ..with a red circle around and line through it, so perhaps I overestimate the capabilities of the masses..actually my chewing gum and shampoo have instructions on them, so thats probably the case. hmmm, I'll take one of two positions then...license the people capable of mediocre intelligence or better to think/act for themselves or ban the toaster stickers and let the problem -work itself out..Darwin style-
Save the police man power/courtrooms and law making for those things which truly hurt someone or thing in a way that a person could not protect themselves from.
That being said my last new toaster did come with a sticker attached to it depicting a person putting their fork in it ..with a red circle around and line through it, so perhaps I overestimate the capabilities of the masses..actually my chewing gum and shampoo have instructions on them, so thats probably the case. hmmm, I'll take one of two positions then...license the people capable of mediocre intelligence or better to think/act for themselves or ban the toaster stickers and let the problem -work itself out..Darwin style-
That is not the government at work. Blame it on lawyers and the stupid American legal system.
I was at an illegeal club last night. Funny thing, no other crimes in sight. No crack whores (I know, disappointing), no loan sharking, no opium den on the side. The owners of card rooms aren't making huge profits. I don't see them driving around in Ferraris. I would bet they run the clubs to fill a need not currently being met and give themselves a place to bring together enough people so that they can participate in a good game. The reason you hear about clubs shutting down could quite possibly be that they aren't making any money. Proceeds of crime? Meh...
I would also say if the gov't legalized them and regulated them, there would still be illegeal clubs out there...
That is not the government at work. Blame it on lawyers and the stupid American legal system.
I don't know that you can say 'American' it was a toaster bought and made in Canada...remind me Greg; who's in charge of the legal system? Wait a minute..isn't it the 'GOVERNMENT'
Now hurry up and get on board the anti-toaster sticker train!
I don't know that you can say 'American' it was a toaster bought and made in Canada...remind me Greg; who's in charge of the legal system? Wait a minute..isn't it the 'GOVERNMENT'
Now hurry up and get on board the anti-toaster sticker train!
I will pass.
And don't think for a second Americans aren't the root cause of that sticker being on your Canadian toaster.
Comments
By having 'stupid' laws the govt encourages disdain of 'good' laws too. I agree that the best way to go would be to get the govt to change the law, especially as it pertains to poker as opposed to gaming houses in general. Since I'm apathetic, I won't bother and I'll grudgingly pay a small fine should I happen to be 'found in'. Thank god there are a few out there who will fight insane laws. The world could use more of them.
Arguing that illegal things happen at poker rooms is a red herring. Illegal things happen at football games and rock concerts. And backyard BBQs. Yet they still go on. Besides, I've been to a number of card rooms and I really haven't noticed that much in the way of illegal activity. Outside of maybe smoking inside (yes tobacco!) I guess there could be some loan sharking but I haven't noticed it.
As far as the legality, if the game was raked, it was illegal. Further, according to the criminal code, if you are found playing in one of these games, you are breaking the law. If you don't like the law, petition your government representative to change it (and hope there are enough other people doing the same thing). While you have the ability to break the law, you don't have the right to choose which laws apply to you. If you think a law is stupid/wrong/unjust, go ahead and break it, but be prepared to face the consequences. Civil disobedience is a tried and true way to get laws changed, but those who practice it must be prepared for the consequences while they are making their stand but before the laws are changed. I don't usually play in these underground clubs because even though I believe the law is stupid, I don't think this issue is important enough to me to take the risk.
Morality, yes the law is dumb, and I believe it should be changed. I have opinions on the casino monopoly it has created, and the lost tax revenues that could be realized by legalizing and regulating the game. However, these personal opinions have absolutely no impact on the law as it currently stands, they are simply opinions (this is where I think some confusion and anger stem from).
Enforcement is pretty simple. The police don't make laws, they enforce them. In order to enforce a law, they need somebody to do it. Specialists do better than "jacks of all trades", which is why the police have special divisions for homicide, burglary, child crimes, narcotics, etc. Since the law makes raked games illegal, they need to enforce the law. In order to do it more effectively, the have created a division for it. This is good - they are doing there job. If the law changes, they should stop, but for now, I congratulate them. As far as them spending their time better by dealing with drugs, etc., that is a red herring. The gaming division is not responsible for investigating narcotics, so they are not taking manpower away from there. I doubt the gaming division is very large compared to other crimes, but it does need to be there (since it is a law). Those who determine the areas of priority (government and police administration) have determined that this is an area that needs enforcement and have allocated a portion of their resources to it.
Kristy, your cigarette story is a perfect example. While I feel for what you and your family seem to have gone through, you lost me at "technically illegal". Bottom line, it was illegal although it wasn't necessarily immoral, and the law could be construed as stupid. Your uncle decided to practice civil disobedience and break the law, and he was punished for it. That's how our great country works, and I'm proud to live in it.
As Kristy said, not enough people are taking this debate seriously. I'd go further and say not enough of us who take it seriously are actually taking action. Maybe we can use this as a wake-up call to actually do something. We may have little chance of changing things, but is apathy and anger really a better alternative?
EDIT: In case it isn't obvious, the reason for contacting the police/AGCO/lawyers is twofold. First, it educates you on what the law actually is AND how it is enforced (note that these are distinctly different). Second, it provides possible evidence if you are ever unfortunate enough to be charged ("I checked with Constable Bob and he said this specific instance was ok - written documention is obviously best, but written notes made during or immediately after a verbal conversation are good as well). Third, it lets them know that you are doing your best to be a law-abiding citizen rather than just blindly doing what you want (possible future brownie points if they ever visit you - maybe a warning instead of being charged).
Before I started hosting my home games, I consulted the AGCO (and posted the results of the conversation here on the forum), Waterloo Regional Police, the OPP (although the OPP has failed to respond to multiple written questions), and legal counsel. This can be considered either due diligence or overkill, your choice
I could go to the trouble of looking up a series of 'laws' on the books but not enforced..and many exist-but I'll simply assume that you all know this. That fact- in and of itself- sets a precedent for allowing certain laws to be 'overlooked' It is the fact that such a decision to let some laws be overlooked occurs and has no open process, that fuels my entire argument..I didn't create the grey areas, I just know they exist. Did they not I would be resigned to simply petitioning my government representatives as you mentioned. The alternative of regulation and changing laws could be argued as a misuse of another valuable resources, just the same as policing the law is.
Will you agree that simply letting this law go the way of the dinosaur would be a much simpler and more efficient way of change?
This country has the potential to be great and I enjoy living here..but that doesn't mean it is infalliable. At a time when we've recently endured debate over same-sex marriage, and there are people living that remember when women couldn't vote, and minorities lead difficult lives of inequality- I think its fair to say there is still much room and NEED for social change and evolution. Anyone who suggests that 'illegal is illegal' has their head in the sand..a clear and analytical look at the motivation for our governments actions IS mandatory and I'm sincerely unnerved by the level of apathy I find in these sorts of debates.
Keep your heads down, work hard and pay your death taxes kids.
Trevor, as always, you make sound judgements in your posts, and I can't find any fault with anything you mentioned.
Do I detect a rallying cry? Are you willing to spearhead such a movement to change the rules? If so, count me in. I would like to see the rules changed as well, but for the most part have no idea how to go about doing it.
Good post and well put Beanie!
A bit of a rallying cry, but more on an individual basis. While I love poker, there are other issues which I consider far more worthy of spending significant time on. For poker, I simply resort to the more basic "write your rep".
As far as what to do, the main thing is to write your elected officials - all of them. Local doesn't have direct impact, but writing them lets them know what their constituents care about so they will discuss it when they meet with higher levels of government. Your MP (federal) has direct involvement since the Criminal Code is federal, but your MPP is important as well since the enforcement has been handed to the provinces (the AGCO for Ontario).
As far as what to write, "angry" letters are a no-no - they will usually get less credit. Also, be brief and to the point since they are busy people too. Remember that financial motivation will usually have more weight than emotional arguments (I mean tax dollars, not bribes
The main thing is that since most people don't make the effort to write in, each letter counts for a larger number of people. Minority groups continuously push somewhat unpopular stuff through simply because they are vocal (while the majority is passive and just whine about it). We (poker players) are a minority, but if enough of us actually stand up, they will take some notice.
Are you falling back into apathy?
I think the discussion has expanded to encompass more than just poker specifically and is now including some protection against irrational and overbearing laws. It is based on a desire for personal freedoms and a government focused on the fundamentals of cohesive society and not, as I mentioned earlier, micromanaging our lives.
Seems 'worthy' of 'significant time' to me.
As for the angry letters bit, it was intended as a joke..but; agreed.
they still do. it's just not 'official' policy
Nice discussion. One day this classic struggle will be made into a movie - "P for Poker".
Once I get the rest of the world fixed, I'll devote more time to this.
As for resources to combat illegal gaming. There are other sides to some of these raked games that need to be dealt with. Simply turning a blind eye to it allows other opportunistic people to run clubs that may or may not always be on the up and up. I am not painting all clubs with this brush but you will find clubs that are using techniques to increase their rake. That is another reason why they need to be dealt with.
If put to a vote, I would vote to legalize poker and regulate it. Of course these regulations would put almost all of the clubs that are currently being run out of business too.
If we pick and choose which laws are "just" and which are not and chose to follow only those that we agree with there would be anarchy.
Write your letters make your protests but poker will never become legal. There are much bigger things on this world that need to be addressed long before poker is legalized.
I'm going to try to briefly respond to your post (as briefly as a loud mouth who feels passionate about a subject can anyway)
They didn't succeed in taking the house...$13,000 worth of lawyers fees and about a year later, they beat the 'proceeds of crime' charge, but I learned first hand the power that government has..and I'm frightened by it.
I was pretty young through most of this, but as I recall the main conversation at point of sale was:
how sick the government was for charging the way they did
People -given some reasonable option- preferred to buy legally. On that alone I will say that it is at worst a series of people compelled to act in an opportunistic way because the government did not allow a reasonable alternative (we both win
I'm thinking a little slice of Anarchy might be just what the Dr. ordered...I'm not talking about a lawless society in which a blind eye is turned towards the truly heinous crimes. I'd just like to believe that we as a whole are capable of making the minor decisions without the constant supervision from our parental government and the ever-present threat of a 'spanking'
That being said my last new toaster did come with a sticker attached to it depicting a person putting their fork in it ..with a red circle around and line through it, so perhaps I overestimate the capabilities of the masses..actually my chewing gum and shampoo have instructions on them, so thats probably the case. hmmm, I'll take one of two positions then...license the people capable of mediocre intelligence or better to think/act for themselves or ban the toaster stickers and let the problem -work itself out..Darwin style-
Save the police man power/courtrooms and law making for those things which truly hurt someone or thing in a way that a person could not protect themselves from.
(believe it or not that WAS brief)
I was at an illegeal club last night. Funny thing, no other crimes in sight. No crack whores (I know, disappointing), no loan sharking, no opium den on the side. The owners of card rooms aren't making huge profits. I don't see them driving around in Ferraris. I would bet they run the clubs to fill a need not currently being met and give themselves a place to bring together enough people so that they can participate in a good game. The reason you hear about clubs shutting down could quite possibly be that they aren't making any money. Proceeds of crime? Meh...
I would also say if the gov't legalized them and regulated them, there would still be illegeal clubs out there...
I don't know that you can say 'American' it was a toaster bought and made in Canada...remind me Greg; who's in charge of the legal system? Wait a minute..isn't it the 'GOVERNMENT'
Now hurry up and get on board the anti-toaster sticker train!
I will pass.
And don't think for a second Americans aren't the root cause of that sticker being on your Canadian toaster.