Ottawa Club arrests
Interesting. Wonder if it means anything for Toronto-based clubs?
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2006/10/12/poker-bust.html
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2006/10/12/poker-bust.html
Comments
I wonder what the max. punishment for the charges mentioned are?
If they want to attatch some monetary fine to illegal gambling, I'd say shut up and pay it...but potentially destroying lives with jail time and seizure of property not specifically related to crime turns my stomach.
This wasn't just a "typical home game"
Mark
You haven't been to a Ching Hill game, have you??? Standard equipment!
Seriously, though, I'm wondering if this is just a sign of things to come closer to home...US creates a law, capital clubs getting busted...
I wouldn't doubt it if the reason they were busted had NOTHING to do with poker though.
/g2
the 'found ins' will likely have the charges dropped as long as the ringleaders plead guilty or will receive a small fine at worst. for sure the cops are going to take all the poker rooms' shit - they don't want them reopening the next day (even though they likely will)
i'm curious why we haven't seen these kind of busts in the gta or kw. my guess would be along the lines of what someone has already suggested - there was something else going on that was the real target and the poker rooms were only tangentially involved. that stuff never happens around here :bs:
LONG LIVE THE RAKE-FREE HOMEGAME
I don't mean to say that ALL establishments breed trouble, but I also don't think that you can run an operation like this and avoid problems forever either.
But to keep the conversation moving in a constructive direction ...
How many times you think cops played in these games as "intelligence collection"?
I also think that there should be warnings, notices, etc. much like what happened when the KWSOP was shut down. Give these people a chance to close up (and maybe still take all the chips/cards/etc). In the end I think this will be the net result at the courts also have more important things to do, like go after repeat speeders on the 401.
Contrary to a couple of the posts, these busts had EVERYTHING to do with poker. The illegal gambling unit of the OPP probably has more ongoing "six-month investigations" of other raked clubs.
Cops would rather bust up an illegal poker game that the only crime is that the feds aren't getting any tax money...
or
Cops would rather deal with getting drugs and guns off the streets?
Seems like a no brainer to me, but hey, I'm not a cop!
Here's my guess, some important Ottawa person's progeny lost his shirt and ran home crying to Daddy/Mummy...it may not be the correct reason..but its at least interesting, and less sickening to me then the idea that they actually consider such clubs to be a menace worth policing.
I watch the homeless and crack-whores and other underprivelleged people strutting up and down my street daily ...and my tax dollars are being spent on a six-month investigation and bust of some people playing poker...BULLSHIT! Here's a thought legalize and tax the poker clubs..make something thats occuring anyway a +ev for society, instead of a drain on limited resources.
Is there really an 'illegal gambling unit of the OPP'? I wonder how they feel about being the most useless schmucks on the face of the planet?
Illegal Gaming Unit (IG)
Unit Commander – Detective Inspector S. (Stu) McDonald
The IG Unit provides a quality dedicated multi-jurisdictional investigative and enforcement response to illegal gambling in Ontario with an emphasis on Traditional Organized Crime. The Unit is provincially funded and its specialized service is available to all police agencies in Ontario.
Do you think that Las Vegas, Reno and Atlantic City don't have these problems like drugs, homelessness, and public urination (I threw that one in because I live in a University town where many have their lawns "watered" nightly).
Also who is to say that the proceeds from poker clubs aren't going to fund illegal organizations, drugs, guns, whatever. It would be pretty easy to put a clean face on all of it. I agree that probably most of the people running clubs who post on this board are standup people and are providing a service and are reinvesting proceeds back into things to make the atmosphere better for the players. But do you really know? You can't unless it's regulated.
Regulation is the only way, and that isn't coming any time soon.
Do we need a system in place to control illegal gaming, particularily when proceeds feed other criminal activities? Absolutely agree.
Should everyone be made to suffer because of the few who do just that? Absolutely not.
Instead of wasting public money on trying to take down every single game in the province, why not come up with a way to regulate it effectively AND earn some tax income from it instead? Isn't that the whole concept behind Vegas and Atlantic City?
I'm not outraged at all with the OPP.
The law was drafted by our government. The police are supposed to protect and uphold the law - all laws, whether we think they are correct or not.
If it is illegal to hold/play unlicensed raked poker, then the police are supposed to enforce the law. Pure and simple.
Think about it, the operators of such clubs earn cash, most of which, if not all goes unclaimed for tax purposes.
Does this seem like a double-standard? (poker earnings being tax free versus rake). I don't think so. The law clearly allows money rec'd through windfalls (i.e. gambling) to be non-taxable. Earning rake isn't a windfall. It is an on-going operation which earns income at a fixed rate. I don't think it's cool for anyone to avoid paying taxes on illegal source income when they themselves make use of our roads, healthcare, schools, etc which are paid for by taxpayers...
Now if you want to discuss allowing and regulating private poker clubs, sure, I'm all ears, I'd love to see that. It would create taxable revenue, and legal employment.
As of now, it isn't legal, and any and all illegal activities must be enforced by the police. - I for one think that marijuana should be legalized (i don't smoke it...i just don't care if any other adult cares to indulge...), I also think that liquor sales should be privatized...but on both counts, they are currently not legal, and as much as i wish they were, i have to respect the police if they choose to enforce the law...raked poker is the same thing to me...
Uphold yes..but that is a far cry from setting aside valuable man power to specifically address "illegal gaming" Do they have a crack team of OPP waiting to pounce on Jay Walkers? My point is that it seems to be such a minor crime..one that most people can admit being guilty of, I don't want my tax dollars wasted on that. Just out of curiosity does anyone know what year it was made illegal?
It goes untaxed because instead of INVESTING OUR TAX DOLLARS TO REGULATE we pay some OPP guy to sit around and 'investigate' for six months. Hence the comment earlier that I am "outraged" at the misappropriation of funds..I AM arguing for regulation, or at least not wasting my tax dollars on catching and charging players if they are NOT going to regulate. Either/Or is fine. What are you proposing in the meantime..the club owners incriminate themselves by offering their proper share of taxes?
We're not talking about some OPP that accidentally stumbled onto a game...we're talking about an orchestrated 'bust', there is a difference. We agree in that I think whatever an adult cares to indulge in should be legal. But I think you are pushing the issue a bit too far..and so are those who are comparing it to Mob style back-alley gambling. How are we ever going to move the game towards the respected level of other strategy games like- Chess- off the top of my head; if even the PLAYERS instantly equate it with loan sharking, mobs, drugs, weapons, etc.
Get off the historical BandWagon where only the 'corrupt' thrive and stand up for the game you play, its a strategic and involved game that doesn't deserve to be penalized as it is. The OPP subsection investigating for six months and making arrests at the level they are IS an OUTRAGE.
Agreed that licensed rooms is the solution to the problem. Turning a blind eye to illegal activities is not. PR is half the battle.
At the very least news like this will help ensure that these clubs stay small and I think that size has a lot to do with the potential for problems. I also beleive that size is directly proportional to greed. Am I saying that taking a small rake is less illegal than taking a big rake? No. But the more $$ you have coming in, the more attention you are going to attract, good and bad.
I seriously doubt that EVERYONE is suffering. They busted a couple of rooms, made a small example out of the people and took some $$ away. They aren't all going to be pounding rocks with sledgehammers in the texas sun. Maybe the organizers will end up with criminal records, that's the risk you take. I feel bad for all those involved as I love poker too, but people love guns does that mean you can do target practice in the street? Even if you setup a little range with lines for people to stay outside of so it's safe, does that make it ok?
I do also think that backroom gambling has the potential to become a serious problem if there weren't a division of the OPP dedicated to dealing with this issue. While the cat's away .... I am also fairly certain (maybe some of the cops monitoring the board can correct me if I'm wrong
I think I got my thoughts across more clearly there. Good discussion!
Even ONE full time officer would be, IMHO; a waste of funds. How much are OPP paid yearly? Lets assume on the low end and say 50k/yrX2 officers=$100,000 minimum of your tax dollars spent policing this..thats craziness! Oh well..if they can make ten more busts like this - they are making money! Thats only 600 more poker players...but where will the money come from next year? Maybe when the poker busts are done they could make some other game like Polo illegal too..those guys seem to have lots of money, the illegal gaming unit could even afford to expand the department.
This whole thing seem so absurd..I'm failing miserably to understand your point of view..could you adress my comment that playing poker is more akin to jay walking then peddling drugs or women or whatever other dark comparisons have been made? I'm not suggesting they ignore a serious crime..I'm suggesting that they ignore a minor one-precisely what they usually do-and devote their valuable time and skills to REAL societal menaces.
Ps. I really hate your earlier comment "Also who is to say that the proceeds from poker clubs aren't going to fund illegal organizations, drugs, guns, whatever." You don't really believe that is a valid argument...do you? (Please take that in the nicest possible way
With all due respect, I think you may have missed my point.
I'm not on any historical bandwagon...and frankly, I didn't know that one existed.
I stated in my opinion that I really do wish that the game became privatized and regulated. The thrust of my argument is not the law itself (which I do disagree with)..it is the enforcement of law.
You make a point that the game is "strategic and involved". I agree, it is a game of skill. And by itself, it is not penalized in any way. You and I could legally play a game of heads up poker, for money, as long as rake isn't going to any type of house/bank.
Oh, and the last I checked, jaywalkers weren't using their talent to cross against/without traffic signals to earn income and evade paying income tax.
Only the "corrupt" thrive? I'd like to think that I'm thriving....I hope I'm not somehow corrupt...
And to protect my Jaywalking comparison, I'll point out what several others have said about poker clubs. Its illegal plain and simple, and therefore the police have an obligation to enforce it..no? If, as I am suggesting, we've established a grey area (and I've certainly jaywalked in front of police without reprimand) then is there not an argument that such minor and everyday illegalities like those two CAN be overlooked?
Mike
PS. it's illigeal, deal with it. If you play in games like this you take risks. The only reason is not only that they don't get the cut, you may be suprised to know that other illegial activites go along around games like this. Illigeal is illigeal, deal with it. And good for the cops for doing a job well done.
1) How to spell 'illegal'
2) That I argued the severity of the crime and was not contradicting the fact that raked poker games are; in fact, ILLEGAL.
I'll remind you that in the not-too-distant past all sorts of things were ILLEGAL; homosexuality as an example, and that irrelevant/illogical laws only make criminals out of reasonable people. Were we to accept your post and ingrain your style of thought..how would we ever progress?
As for the idea that a poker club goes hand in hand with any other illegal activity...well you'll have to trust me when I simply say, That is an absurd assumption. Were I you, I'd strongly consider pulling my head out of my ass.
Mike
Kristy, I have no problem with police enforcing law....but I'd like to also think that I have in no way, shape, or form offended anyone by simply stating an opinion.
I disagree with you....but I'm not about to start calling you or anyone else names and devolve this discussion into a 5th grade school yard environment.
I'm done with the topic, it is obviously serving no good purpose...
Again, I think you are missing the point. This is not a poker division, it's a gaming division. And left totally unchecked would become a problem.
You are right, we should only punish "real" criminals based on the 10 commandments, everything else should just be let go regardless if it breaks the law or not.
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If nothing else, they should at least declare earnings and pay taxes. Even if the organizers are purchasing plasma TV's for their living rooms I am upset. I work like a dog every day and pay my taxes. Thank god the police are using them to run down criminals.
I really think your efforst are better spent lobbying government into changing the laws and allowing for regulation then whining. This is the internet, just post a pretty picture of yourself, bat your eyelashes a couple times and say "pleeeeeeease" with a pouty lip. You could probably get 10000 poker players in your back pocket in no time.
Again, I think you are missing the point. This is not a poker division, it's a gaming division. And left totally unchecked would become a problem.
You are right, we should only punish "real" criminals based on the 10 commandments, everything else should just be let go regardless if it breaks the law or not. The point is that gambling in a secret parlor has a much greater potential to escalate into something bigger, where jaywalking leads to nothing other than maybe more jaywalking.
If nothing else, they should at least declare earnings and pay taxes. Even if the organizers are purchasing plasma TV's for their living rooms I am upset. I work like a dog every day and pay my taxes. Thank god the police are using that money to run down criminals. (And I mean that in the nicest possible way)
I really think your efforts are better spent lobbying government into changing the laws and allowing for regulation then whining. This is the internet, just post a pretty picture of yourself, bat your eyelashes a couple times and say "pleeeeeeease" with a pouty lip. You could probably get 10000 poker players in your back pocket in no time.
In the eighties and nineties, one of my immediate family members was a 'bootlegger' meaning he brought cigarettes and alcohol acrossed the American border, in large numbers. (When there was still money to be made doing this) Another act technically illegal..but IMHO not necessarily 'wrong' as cigarettes and alcohol are sold here. To me it seems less of an evasion of taxes and more of a 'fighting the man' situation..this was the point at which cigarettes roughly doubled in price overnight, for those who remember. It was largely a money grub as the increase was in taxes. To stymie those "reap what you sow" types I'll point out that cigarettes are addictive and the government made them financially inaccessible WITHOUT putting supports in place to help people overcome said addiction. (hopefully that heads you off at the pass)
I realize a few of you will have trouble initially in agreeing with my assessment that this is not wrong..but extend me the benefit of the doubt until you hear the entire story
This family member was caught..twice; once in the 80's and again in 95 and at that time the RCMP alleged that my family home and all the property therein was to be seized as 'proceeds of crime' As a child living in that house (a house that my parents had worked and paid for) I know first hand the devestation that administering such GREY laws in black and white WILL cause.
I resent the fact that my government is enforcing laws like that, because what reasonable outcome is derived from such action? Are the streets a safer place to be? NO. I would suggest that the only people who are hurt are the everyman types. Do not forget that they also charged the people who were simply present AT the game aswell as the ones who ran the clubs.
Its a law motivated by governmental greed when they are too lazy to take the steps to regulate or make reasonable/possible the activities that one considers a part of a full home life.
I believe that most people who will post here are not taking the debate seriously enough, for the simple playing of game-lives can be ruined and you and I are PAYING for this to be done.
I'm not certain that its not unreasonable to anticipate social change or to hope that a few people may be inspired to start protecting their personal freedom based on an internet debate..but regardless thats what I hope. I want the government to STOP MICROMANAGING my life, and the lives of others. For me this issue is serious.
Take your freedom and right to live and play in a way that doesn't hurt others seriously!