Finally, some common sense and alternatives...THIS WILL NOT LAST! Found on CardPlayer.com site
What's NOT Included in The New Anti-Gaming Bill
A Legal Perspective
This weekend, just before congress recessed, Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist (R-TN) finally snuck the mildest form of the anti-gaming legislation into an unrelated bill. The Safe Port Act provides $3.4 billion for U.S. port security and attached to that bill is a section making unlawful for banks to send money to Internet gambling sites or their intermediaries.
The bill passed both the House and Senate, meaning that it only awaits the president’s signature before becoming law.
Do not panic. First and foremost, this bill does not criminalize PLAYING POKER. IN fact, the bill does not speak to the poker player at all.
After 10 years, Congress finally passed something relating to online gaming. The bill basically makes it more difficult for players to put their money into an offshore site. However, these sites are not just going to walk away from a 12 billion dollar a year industry. Since the gambling businesses are beyond the hold of U.S. laws, when one funding source is blocked, they will open another.
Next, most banks and credit card companies already refuse to send money to offshore sites. Therefore, there are already offshore third-party companies in place that are more than happy to handle our financial transactions. The bill attempts to forbid financial institutions from sending money to intermediaries as well.
However, the government cannot stop its citizens from sending money out of the country for legitimate purposes. For example, if I want to buy a widget offshore, the Constitution protects my right to do so. As long as there is a third party, not involved in gaming, I am permitted to place my money in that receptacle from a U.S. financial institution and then spend it. Once my money goes to NETeller, I can buy a watch, or pay for a trip. Because there are legally allowable things that can be done after sending the money to NETeller, the government cannot tell my bank not to send my money there. Our Constitution protects one's personal right to send money from a U.S. bank or financial institution to a business outside of the United States.
The company I mentioned is the popular NETeller. Others will soon appear on the horizon. NETeller happens to be a publicly traded company on the London AIM Exchange with a user base of more than 2.3 million customers. More than 1,700 online merchants accept payments through the NETeller system, and most of those companies are not gaming sites. With corporate headquarters in the Isle of Man, the company processes billions of dollars yearly. Companies like NETeller are not going to pack up and disappear. This legislation merely encourages more of the same.
It will be fascinating to watch this issue unfold. If our government tries to stop US financial institutions from sending money to a place like NETeller, this would surely be fodder for a lawsuit.
The issue will probably be decided from a business perspective. If NETeller makes millions from non-gaming related sources and it would hurt their business if they lost US customers, they may voluntarily stop sending money to offshore sites. On the other hand, if a large portion of their business is online gaming, a lawsuit is in the making if NETeller is blacklisted.
The Secretary and the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System have 270 days (after the bill is signed by the president) to come up with enforcement policies and procedures.
You can be sure that during this period, there will be lawsuits here, while abroad, there will be plans to protect the 6-billion-dollar-a-year industry by circumventing this new law which is applicable only in the US. Our government cannot make laws that apply to offshore companies who are regulated by the government where they are located.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the offshore sites come up with programs to put large sums of money into their sites now prior to enforcement of the bill. They could offer interest or other large incentives to keep substantial sums online.
The Poker Player’s Alliance president, Michael Blocerek told me this morning that he is “outraged at the way Frist attached the anti-gaming bill to unrelated legislation at the 11th hour.†The Poker Player’s Alliance is a grass roots organization of more than 110,000 members. Bolcerek said: “During the 270 day period, we will continue to fight to exempt poker.â€
There are many interesting twists and turns in this new legislation which I will analyze for our readers next week after the holidays.
If sites betray this bill won't they get penalized? Such as the Smoking Ban in Ontario. If an establishment is caught they get fined. I'm thinking if sites get caught they will be shut down. So much for that new site PKR.COM the 3D graphics, all there players are US based. What a waste of money in creating that site!
PRIMA NETWORK IS GOING TO CLEAN HOUSE NOW! less than 10% are from the US on that site, and traffic on that site ranges from 5000-6000 players.
6 months!! At the most!!! And this bullshit law will disappear into oblivion.
If you have any investment money at all, put it in Party as soon as the election is over!
This "BS" act is similar to the Patriot act. It caused a huge uproar when people found what it actually empowered the govt to do. Yet, after months of raging, the populace became a nice and quiet herd again and forgot about the issue. This is similar in that nobody in congress actually had a chance to read the bill before they signed it. This bill will be signed by Bush shortly and at that point, it becomes law. That's why Party, casino-on-net (888 and pacific poker) and Crypto (intercasino, interpoker, will hill, etc) are going to stop taking US cash.
The US represents between 65-80% of poker traffic in the world (real money) and this is a huge deal. It may or may not be permanent as nothing is yet clarified. The gaming lawyers are beginning to issue opinions and the US will have a date with the WTO shortly as Antigua has filed a case.
This also affects Casino, bingo and sports betting, which comprise a far larger scope than just poker. Bear that in mind. From what is being explained by the prominent lawyers of the industry, this bill targets the payment processing specifically. This will certainly affect Neteller even being on the Isle of man. For the record, they used to be a Canadian company but moved offshore last year in a brilliant tax move (at least a 40% savings).
Anyhow, I will post some links for those who are interested to learn what professionals are saying. I am not sure why Party reacted as soon as they did. I can see no sense in it. Same for Crypto and casino on net (those 3 are the big fish on the planet). BWin (another huge company) has taken a more reasonable approach, as will stars and some of the other private companies, in saying that they will wait and see.
Again, all of this is still open to interpretation and nothing is technically set yet (although I think we can hold our breath until the bill is signed).
Finally, some common sense and alternatives...THIS WILL NOT LAST! Found on CardPlayer.com site
With all due respect, that comment is found on cardplayer.com. I would advise anyone interested in taking any info (even the stuff I just posted above) with a big grain of salt.
The US can do whatever it damn well feels like and it usually does. Lest we forget that they control a huge chunk of the world economy and that they are not afraid to throw around their weight to prove a point...
I only say that this needs to be taken very seriously and while it won't affect the majority of the people here, it will definietly mess with the general gaming world in a large, large way. To consider: to the mainstream USA, poker and casino gaming is a blip on the radar. For those who quote $ amounts, $12B (today's annual aggregate gaming revenues) is not quite a significant amount when we look at the total US GDP. It's a big number, no doubt, but it's nothing close to material. As well, consider that there are appx 1M poker players in the US who use online rooms. There are over 250 M US voters who dont care in the least.
Note: This is an election year (congressional) and the republicans have just placated the religious right in the US. Think politics.
This is to say nothing of the fact that Natives and land based US casinos might just find an in through this.
There are just way too many factors here to know what will happen.
I will repeat though - it's worth taking seriously and although I don't think it's the end of the industry (and I am not alone) I won't allow myself to be confident that this won't suck. Hard.
Anyhow, I will post some links for those who are interested to learn what professionals are saying. I am not sure why Party reacted as soon as they did. I can see no sense in it. Same for Crypto and casino on net (those 3 are the big fish on the planet). BWin (another huge company) has taken a more reasonable approach, as will stars and some of the other private companies, in saying that they will wait and see.
Party & Crypto are both publically traded companies, and are subject to stringent rules governing the public release of business descisions that will effect stock prices... Stars is still privately owned and under no obligation.
If any Americans want to use my PartyPoker/PokerStars account and give me a slice of their profits, not a problem. Maybe this will become a lucrative business opportunity for us Canadians!
As well, consider that there are appx 1M poker players in the US who use online rooms. There are over 250 M US voters who dont care in the least.
This is the real issue - those of us who play and talk poker find it important - many of us may also be lead to believe that poker is popular with every one - since many people we know and relate to also partake.
This is not the case -the majority of people - percieve playing poker online as no different than playing slots online - If the American Congress shut down on-line slots 7 years ago - I would have applauded them for it.
Our demographic, not exclusively, is young males (18-35). Statistically, young unmarried men are the most likely to gamble. So it is not a surprise that so many people we know play poker. But take a look at the North American population pyramid - even if 35% of people in our demographic played online poker we would still be insignificant.
Poker has become much more mainstream, having said that, supporting online poker certainly is not.
Betting includes instructions or information. This eliminates the argument overseas operators used that the money was already in a foreign country, so no bet took place in the U.S.
It sounds like using a third-party outside the country could still be considered in violation of this legislation, since the person issuing the instructions to the third-party is inside the US. IANAL, but it sounds like there will need to be a few cases tried first (if it gets through) to see how the courts interpret/enforce this law before any real judgement can be made.
Even if neteller remains enitirely untouched I still think we would see a drop of 80% in the new player population.
Consdiering US elections in five weeks and the amount of money the gaming sites can bring to the table I could see this quietly being changed or tossed after the elections are over.
Consdiering US elections in five weeks and the amount of money the gaming sites can bring to the table I could see this quietly being changed or tossed after the elections are over.
Uhh do you know how politics works? Thats what the senate and the house are for. 'discussion and debate'. Once they agree on something, it's only left to the president to either sign it or veto it.
But of course, you know that the online gaming bill is attached to the port security bill. So if you really think W is going to veto a 13B defence spending bill, you are insane.
Anyway, if you really want to make money, look at buying cryptologic shares once they settle down. They've got $10USD in cash and have just become the largest public online casino company in the world. They were always european focused so only 30% of revenue came from the US (compared to 70% for partyPoker).
That being said, it all remains to be seen HOW the banks go about enforcing. The direct use of credit cards to online gambling sites was already practically impossible due to fraud. The banks won't have to verify cheques (theres a loophole that allows the fed to nix the cheque verification). It sounds to me like the Neteller model would remain legal.
Lets also remember how great the US is at enforcing prohibitive laws. Anyone remember alcohol? Consumption remained steady throughout while prices increased. Music piracy? Oh yeah, thats stamped out. Illicit drugs? Yup, can't go to any corner and buy those. Downloading Movies? Again, the gov't it too crafty.
The main thing to remember about this bill is that at the end of the day, the gambler in question faces no charges. Theres no end user motiviation to comply. The gambler won't be arrested and theres no deterrance. If a chronic gambler wants to open a european bank account, theres nothing the US can do to stop it.
Uhh do you know how politics works? Thats what the senate and the house are for. 'discussion and debate'. Once they agree on something, it's only left to the president to either sign it or veto it.
uhhh yes i do and this does not prevent them from amending a change to some other bill and putting things back to the way they were or mucking them up even worse than they already have.
sorry - it probably didn't come across as humor as I only used one smiley face but I was kidding about the ebay thing - I was just pointing out that people are going to make every attempt to get around this thing.
As Canadians, we're fine and this should not affect us directl, meaning Neteller should still process our cash. If you start playing with the rules though, you will likely be giving up your US visits for a long long time.
I would be SUPER cautious about investing in ANYTHING gaming related in the next month or so. Sure the phrase is 'sell on good news, buy on bad', but this could kill a company. Even Partypoker. Crypto is just like the rest of the industry - they do focus on the UK and Europe heavily, but note that the low hanging fruit has always been the US. Especially for poker. As the EPT gains traction that might change, but the major money came from US people.
I will keep people posted on any developments on this (as I am highly sensitive to the situation).
You're correct about the casino part. Just as Casino-on-net derives most of its income from 888 and not pacific poker and even Party earned 25% of their revenue from casino gaming (as opposed to poker), so to does Cryptologic earn its money. Casino out-earns poker and sportsbook without question.
However, Crypto is just a network. They license software to operators such as Will hill, Ads.com (intercasino, interpoker) and any others. At the end of the day, I assure you that their player base (especially poker) is the same composition as the industry in general. That is to say, at least 65% + American.
I was simply stating that investing in ANY company related to e-gaming now IMHO is just insane. Better to go to Vegas and play some poker.
At the end of the day, I assure you that their player base (especially poker) is the same composition as the industry in general. That is to say, at least 65% + American.
You assure us incorrectly. Take a look at this site:
Comments
If you have any investment money at all, put it in Party as soon as the election is over!
What's NOT Included in The New Anti-Gaming Bill
A Legal Perspective
This weekend, just before congress recessed, Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist (R-TN) finally snuck the mildest form of the anti-gaming legislation into an unrelated bill. The Safe Port Act provides $3.4 billion for U.S. port security and attached to that bill is a section making unlawful for banks to send money to Internet gambling sites or their intermediaries.
The bill passed both the House and Senate, meaning that it only awaits the president’s signature before becoming law.
Do not panic. First and foremost, this bill does not criminalize PLAYING POKER. IN fact, the bill does not speak to the poker player at all.
After 10 years, Congress finally passed something relating to online gaming. The bill basically makes it more difficult for players to put their money into an offshore site. However, these sites are not just going to walk away from a 12 billion dollar a year industry. Since the gambling businesses are beyond the hold of U.S. laws, when one funding source is blocked, they will open another.
Next, most banks and credit card companies already refuse to send money to offshore sites. Therefore, there are already offshore third-party companies in place that are more than happy to handle our financial transactions. The bill attempts to forbid financial institutions from sending money to intermediaries as well.
However, the government cannot stop its citizens from sending money out of the country for legitimate purposes. For example, if I want to buy a widget offshore, the Constitution protects my right to do so. As long as there is a third party, not involved in gaming, I am permitted to place my money in that receptacle from a U.S. financial institution and then spend it. Once my money goes to NETeller, I can buy a watch, or pay for a trip. Because there are legally allowable things that can be done after sending the money to NETeller, the government cannot tell my bank not to send my money there. Our Constitution protects one's personal right to send money from a U.S. bank or financial institution to a business outside of the United States.
The company I mentioned is the popular NETeller. Others will soon appear on the horizon. NETeller happens to be a publicly traded company on the London AIM Exchange with a user base of more than 2.3 million customers. More than 1,700 online merchants accept payments through the NETeller system, and most of those companies are not gaming sites. With corporate headquarters in the Isle of Man, the company processes billions of dollars yearly. Companies like NETeller are not going to pack up and disappear. This legislation merely encourages more of the same.
It will be fascinating to watch this issue unfold. If our government tries to stop US financial institutions from sending money to a place like NETeller, this would surely be fodder for a lawsuit.
The issue will probably be decided from a business perspective. If NETeller makes millions from non-gaming related sources and it would hurt their business if they lost US customers, they may voluntarily stop sending money to offshore sites. On the other hand, if a large portion of their business is online gaming, a lawsuit is in the making if NETeller is blacklisted.
The Secretary and the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System have 270 days (after the bill is signed by the president) to come up with enforcement policies and procedures.
You can be sure that during this period, there will be lawsuits here, while abroad, there will be plans to protect the 6-billion-dollar-a-year industry by circumventing this new law which is applicable only in the US. Our government cannot make laws that apply to offshore companies who are regulated by the government where they are located.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the offshore sites come up with programs to put large sums of money into their sites now prior to enforcement of the bill. They could offer interest or other large incentives to keep substantial sums online.
The Poker Player’s Alliance president, Michael Blocerek told me this morning that he is “outraged at the way Frist attached the anti-gaming bill to unrelated legislation at the 11th hour.†The Poker Player’s Alliance is a grass roots organization of more than 110,000 members. Bolcerek said: “During the 270 day period, we will continue to fight to exempt poker.â€
There are many interesting twists and turns in this new legislation which I will analyze for our readers next week after the holidays.
PRIMA NETWORK IS GOING TO CLEAN HOUSE NOW! less than 10% are from the US on that site, and traffic on that site ranges from 5000-6000 players.
Greg,
I can't stop laughing!
Prophet :2h :2s
This "BS" act is similar to the Patriot act. It caused a huge uproar when people found what it actually empowered the govt to do. Yet, after months of raging, the populace became a nice and quiet herd again and forgot about the issue. This is similar in that nobody in congress actually had a chance to read the bill before they signed it. This bill will be signed by Bush shortly and at that point, it becomes law. That's why Party, casino-on-net (888 and pacific poker) and Crypto (intercasino, interpoker, will hill, etc) are going to stop taking US cash.
The US represents between 65-80% of poker traffic in the world (real money) and this is a huge deal. It may or may not be permanent as nothing is yet clarified. The gaming lawyers are beginning to issue opinions and the US will have a date with the WTO shortly as Antigua has filed a case.
This also affects Casino, bingo and sports betting, which comprise a far larger scope than just poker. Bear that in mind. From what is being explained by the prominent lawyers of the industry, this bill targets the payment processing specifically. This will certainly affect Neteller even being on the Isle of man. For the record, they used to be a Canadian company but moved offshore last year in a brilliant tax move (at least a 40% savings).
Anyhow, I will post some links for those who are interested to learn what professionals are saying. I am not sure why Party reacted as soon as they did. I can see no sense in it. Same for Crypto and casino on net (those 3 are the big fish on the planet). BWin (another huge company) has taken a more reasonable approach, as will stars and some of the other private companies, in saying that they will wait and see.
Here:
http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/w-agora/view.php?site=bjf&bn=bjf_onlinegaming&key=1159811363
Legal opinion of a heavy hitter in the industry
http://www.casinoaffiliateprograms.com/bb/companies-to-stick-it-out-with-the-us-gambling-market.14951.html?
who may still be providing service
http://www.casinoaffiliateprograms.com/bb/party-is-over-and-other-company-statements.14946.html?
this is a list of company statements from yesterday
Again, all of this is still open to interpretation and nothing is technically set yet (although I think we can hold our breath until the bill is signed).
my 0.02
With all due respect, that comment is found on cardplayer.com. I would advise anyone interested in taking any info (even the stuff I just posted above) with a big grain of salt.
The US can do whatever it damn well feels like and it usually does. Lest we forget that they control a huge chunk of the world economy and that they are not afraid to throw around their weight to prove a point...
I only say that this needs to be taken very seriously and while it won't affect the majority of the people here, it will definietly mess with the general gaming world in a large, large way. To consider: to the mainstream USA, poker and casino gaming is a blip on the radar. For those who quote $ amounts, $12B (today's annual aggregate gaming revenues) is not quite a significant amount when we look at the total US GDP. It's a big number, no doubt, but it's nothing close to material. As well, consider that there are appx 1M poker players in the US who use online rooms. There are over 250 M US voters who dont care in the least.
Note: This is an election year (congressional) and the republicans have just placated the religious right in the US. Think politics.
This is to say nothing of the fact that Natives and land based US casinos might just find an in through this.
There are just way too many factors here to know what will happen.
I will repeat though - it's worth taking seriously and although I don't think it's the end of the industry (and I am not alone) I won't allow myself to be confident that this won't suck. Hard.
Party & Crypto are both publically traded companies, and are subject to stringent rules governing the public release of business descisions that will effect stock prices... Stars is still privately owned and under no obligation.
Point was only that I am surprised people reacted with a worst case scenario approach
PokerJAH
People are already planning this
As well, consider that there are appx 1M poker players in the US who use online rooms. There are over 250 M US voters who dont care in the least.
This is the real issue - those of us who play and talk poker find it important - many of us may also be lead to believe that poker is popular with every one - since many people we know and relate to also partake.
This is not the case -the majority of people - percieve playing poker online as no different than playing slots online - If the American Congress shut down on-line slots 7 years ago - I would have applauded them for it.
Our demographic, not exclusively, is young males (18-35). Statistically, young unmarried men are the most likely to gamble. So it is not a surprise that so many people we know play poker. But take a look at the North American population pyramid - even if 35% of people in our demographic played online poker we would still be insignificant.
Poker has become much more mainstream, having said that, supporting online poker certainly is not.
I guess the only hiccup will be crossing the border into the US. Will probably be viewed as another form of money laundering by the US government.
Actually, I'm not sure if this whole "partnership outside the country" thing is actually a loophole as some people think. The legal analysis from York's first link (http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/w-agora/view.php?site=bjf&bn=bjf_onlinegaming&key=1159811363) states:
It sounds like using a third-party outside the country could still be considered in violation of this legislation, since the person issuing the instructions to the third-party is inside the US. IANAL, but it sounds like there will need to be a few cases tried first (if it gets through) to see how the courts interpret/enforce this law before any real judgement can be made.
Consdiering US elections in five weeks and the amount of money the gaming sites can bring to the table I could see this quietly being changed or tossed after the elections are over.
Uhh do you know how politics works? Thats what the senate and the house are for. 'discussion and debate'. Once they agree on something, it's only left to the president to either sign it or veto it.
But of course, you know that the online gaming bill is attached to the port security bill. So if you really think W is going to veto a 13B defence spending bill, you are insane.
Anyway, if you really want to make money, look at buying cryptologic shares once they settle down. They've got $10USD in cash and have just become the largest public online casino company in the world. They were always european focused so only 30% of revenue came from the US (compared to 70% for partyPoker).
That being said, it all remains to be seen HOW the banks go about enforcing. The direct use of credit cards to online gambling sites was already practically impossible due to fraud. The banks won't have to verify cheques (theres a loophole that allows the fed to nix the cheque verification). It sounds to me like the Neteller model would remain legal.
Lets also remember how great the US is at enforcing prohibitive laws. Anyone remember alcohol? Consumption remained steady throughout while prices increased. Music piracy? Oh yeah, thats stamped out. Illicit drugs? Yup, can't go to any corner and buy those. Downloading Movies? Again, the gov't it too crafty.
The main thing to remember about this bill is that at the end of the day, the gambler in question faces no charges. Theres no end user motiviation to comply. The gambler won't be arrested and theres no deterrance. If a chronic gambler wants to open a european bank account, theres nothing the US can do to stop it.
Enjoy the mass panic, it's laughable.
uhhh yes i do and this does not prevent them from amending a change to some other bill and putting things back to the way they were or mucking them up even worse than they already have.
As Canadians, we're fine and this should not affect us directl, meaning Neteller should still process our cash. If you start playing with the rules though, you will likely be giving up your US visits for a long long time.
I would be SUPER cautious about investing in ANYTHING gaming related in the next month or so. Sure the phrase is 'sell on good news, buy on bad', but this could kill a company. Even Partypoker. Crypto is just like the rest of the industry - they do focus on the UK and Europe heavily, but note that the low hanging fruit has always been the US. Especially for poker. As the EPT gains traction that might change, but the major money came from US people.
I will keep people posted on any developments on this (as I am highly sensitive to the situation).
Actually, it's not.
It derives most of it's profit from it's casino games and it's targetted towards europe.
Most of the industry was focused on the US and made thier money via Poker.
However, Crypto is just a network. They license software to operators such as Will hill, Ads.com (intercasino, interpoker) and any others. At the end of the day, I assure you that their player base (especially poker) is the same composition as the industry in general. That is to say, at least 65% + American.
I was simply stating that investing in ANY company related to e-gaming now IMHO is just insane. Better to go to Vegas and play some poker.
Some interesting reading from Nolan Dalla - someone who's really been around (although it's not a legal opinion of any kind):
http://www.pokerplayernewspaper.com/printerfriendly.php?id=1481
You assure us incorrectly. Take a look at this site:
http://www.pokersitescout.com/
It has the most accurate, real time stats on number of real-money cash game players of any site.
If you look at EDT/EST evening you will find certain sites achieving their peak numbers; others achieve their peak in European evening time.
A list of "Euro-facing" sites/networks:
MICROGAMING/PRIMA
CRYPTOLOGIC
EVEREST
BOSS MEDIA
LADBROKES
TAIN
B2B
Most of the above networks have already banned US players (Microgaming, so far, is the exception)
Two others,
ONGAME
TRIBECA
have certain skins, namely Hollywood Poker, FCP (Ongame) and Doyle's Room (Tribeca) that are NA-facing, but most of their skins are Euro-based.
Log on at midnight and you'll see that there is a big difference in current versus peak traffic between the Euro-facing networks and US-facing ones.