another JJ spot

pele1515pele1515
in MTT Strategy
PokerStars Hand #74492128703: Tournament #506458206, $7.34+$0.66 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (150/300) - 2012/01/26 0:05:54 ET
Table '506458206 16' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: Escapemylove (7503 in chips)
Seat 2: URWRSTNTMARE (4385 in chips)
Seat 3: Marminator12 (4030 in chips)
Seat 4: cris&tani18 (3854 in chips)
Seat 5: 13131984 (4586 in chips)
Seat 6: dhilton12 (2901 in chips)
Seat 7: lordco (4890 in chips)
Seat 8: StormBerry (9169 in chips)
Escapemylove: posts the ante 25
URWRSTNTMARE: posts the ante 25
Marminator12: posts the ante 25
cris&tani18: posts the ante 25
13131984: posts the ante 25
dhilton12: posts the ante 25
lordco: posts the ante 25
StormBerry: posts the ante 25
StormBerry: posts small blind 150
Escapemylove: posts big blind 300
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to StormBerry [Jd Js]
URWRSTNTMARE: folds
Marminator12: folds
cris&tani18: raises 3529 to 3829 and is all-in
13131984: folds
dhilton12: folds
lordco: folds
StormBerry: *does what?*
Escapemylove: *still to act*

:o

no notes on the villian, new ish table.
«1

Comments

  • Hellmuth's MoleHellmuth's Mole
    Snap shove to isolate.
  • kwstevekwsteve
    Allin
  • pele1515pele1515
    ya? Couldn't villian easily have QQ+ , AK, AQ? Is a race necessary here?
  • Hellmuth's MoleHellmuth's Mole
    pele1515 wrote: »
    ya? Couldn't villian easily have QQ+ , AK, AQ? Is a race necessary here?

    He could. With an M around 8 he could have A rag, any underpair..... pretty wide imo. I will sacrifice little over a third of my stack in this spot.

    Keep out the 2nd stack though.
  • HobbesHobbes
    ^^^^^
    This
  • GTA PokerGTA Poker
    This isn't really a "spot" unless you have some compelling data on the open shover it's a snap shove. This is a poker tournament and the opener could have lots of things, but you have to risk your chips sometime and you are likely way ahead of his range.

    I would put his range at 22-QQ, A2-AK, KT-KQ at this level without any more info. Notice I left out AA, KK. I would shove those hands as well for deception, but most players at these limits will throw in a min to standard raise for value with those hands.

    Someone else can run the numbers if they want, but it will turn into an obv snap shove.

    What range of hands did you put him on at the time?
  • UnknownUnknown
    pele1515 wrote: »
    ya? Couldn't villian easily have QQ+ , AK, AQ? Is a race necessary here?
    yes we are racing with the hand vs hand equity if he is that two, however, when when we add the extra antes and blinds this will push us into the snap calling range.

    Also the villain is absolutely wider than this he will have tt sometimes, ajs, and rarer but still 99 ajo and kqs. You always have to take your reasonable range and add some bluff or weird hands, so 42/57 is pretty conservative......

    Attachment not found.


    one we know we are on the plus side then yes we will 'race', and never think about folding
  • HobbesHobbes
    Add in the possibility too that he does not ship AA/KK.
  • GTA PokerGTA Poker
    darbday wrote: »
    yes we are racing with the hand vs hand equity if he is that two, however, when when we add the extra antes and blinds this will push us into the snap calling range.

    Also the villain is absolutely wider than this he will have tt sometimes, ajs, and rarer but still 99 ajo and kqs. You always have to take your reasonable range and add some bluff or weird hands, so 42/57 is pretty conservative......

    Attachment not found.


    one we know we are on the plus side then yes we will 'race', and never think about folding

    I think that's a super tight range
  • pele1515pele1515
    GTA Poker wrote: »
    I think that's a super tight range

    I disagree, I agree with that range

    Now don't get me wrong here I thought about folding for like a split second but thought better of it. I was just curious what you guys thought or if I even need to race in this spot with one left to act.

    Heres how the rest played out.

    StormBerry: calls 3679
    Escapemylove: folds
    *** FLOP *** [3d 2s Jh]
    *** TURN *** [3d 2s Jh] [3h]
    *** RIVER *** [3d 2s Jh 3h] [8d]
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    StormBerry: shows [Jd Js] (a full house, Jacks full of Threes)
    cris&tani18: shows [Ad 6d] (a pair of Threes)
    StormBerry collected 8158 from pot
    cris&tani18 finished the tournament in 57th place
  • UnknownUnknown
    pele1515 wrote: »
    I disagree, I agree with that range



    StormBerry: calls 3679
    Escapemylove: folds
    *** FLOP *** [3d 2s Jh]
    *** TURN *** [3d 2s Jh] [3h]
    *** RIVER *** [3d 2s Jh 3h] [8d]
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    StormBerry: shows [Jd Js] (a full house, Jacks full of Threes)
    cris&tani18: shows [Ad 6d] (a pair of Threes)
    StormBerry collected 8158 from pot
    cris&tani18 finished the tournament in 57th place
    you're possibly lacking a fundamental in your definition of 'range' ^-^
  • HobbesHobbes
    The flat was bad. You just put over 40% of your stack in.
    You really don't want another coming for the ride.

    pele1515 wrote: »
    I disagree, I agree with that range

    Now don't get me wrong here I thought about folding for like a split second but thought better of it. I was just curious what you guys thought or if I even need to race in this spot with one left to act.

    Heres how the rest played out.

    StormBerry: calls 3679
    Escapemylove: folds
    *** FLOP *** [3d 2s Jh]
    *** TURN *** [3d 2s Jh] [3h]
    *** RIVER *** [3d 2s Jh 3h] [8d]
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    StormBerry: shows [Jd Js] (a full house, Jacks full of Threes)
    cris&tani18: shows [Ad 6d] (a pair of Threes)
    StormBerry collected 8158 from pot
    cris&tani18 finished the tournament in 57th place
  • Hellmuth's MoleHellmuth's Mole
    pele1515 wrote: »
    I disagree, I agree with that range

    Now don't get me wrong here I thought about folding for like a split second but thought better of it. I was just curious what you guys thought or if I even need to race in this spot with one left to act.

    Heres how the rest played out.

    StormBerry: calls 3679
    Escapemylove: folds
    *** FLOP *** [3d 2s Jh]
    *** TURN *** [3d 2s Jh] [3h]
    *** RIVER *** [3d 2s Jh 3h] [8d]
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    StormBerry: shows [Jd Js] (a full house, Jacks full of Threes)
    cris&tani18: shows [Ad 6d] (a pair of Threes)
    StormBerry collected 8158 from pot
    cris&tani18 finished the tournament in 57th place

    Not sure why you'd disagree with a wide open range, he just showed you.

    Flatting here is the real risk. Letting Escapemylove have a chance to come along at 3/1 for the flop for half his stack and a chance at a 12k pot.

    It would have turned out ok for you here (aside from pocket 3's) but I think they call that results oriented thinking.
  • UnknownUnknown
    i think we can flat pre as long as we never fold post, i don't mind the extra guy coming along, its money in our pocket but i would rather shove to sort of look weaker, flatting looks scarier?
  • Hellmuth's MoleHellmuth's Mole
    Scary flatting? If I'm sitting behind with AK, AQ even KQ I'm thinking this is a chance to see a flop and break some hearts. Have to be looking to chip up in places like that.
  • pele1515pele1515
    really? a chance to break some hearts for half your stack lol? Also this is a 180 with about 57 left if that would change things, but imo its not a time you want to be SS.
  • GTA PokerGTA Poker
    pele1515 wrote: »
    I disagree, I agree with that range

    Now don't get me wrong here I thought about folding for like a split second but thought better of it. I was just curious what you guys thought or if I even need to race in this spot with one left to act.

    Heres how the rest played out.

    StormBerry: calls 3679
    Escapemylove: folds
    *** FLOP *** [3d 2s Jh]
    *** TURN *** [3d 2s Jh] [3h]
    *** RIVER *** [3d 2s Jh 3h] [8d]
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    StormBerry: shows [Jd <acronym title="JavaScript">Js</acronym>] (a full house, Jacks full of Threes)
    cris&tani18: shows [Ad 6d] (a pair of Threes)
    StormBerry collected 8158 from pot
    cris&tani18 finished the tournament in 57th place

    How can you disagree with my range when he showed the bottom of what I described as his range?
  • UnknownUnknown
    Hellmuth's Mole wrote: »
    Scary flatting? If I'm sitting behind with AK, AQ even KQ I'm thinking this is a chance to see a flop and break some hearts. Have to be looking to chip up in places like that.
    you cannot see a flop for 10bbs . If you put 10bbs in you have to call, so if your opp in the bb wants to see a flop with ak and fold every time he doesn't hit, then we are very very happy

    if i think the bb was bad enough to flat 10bbs and then fold on a flop he missed then i would always flat and jam any flop that i didn't hit a set on
  • pele1515pele1515
    GTA Poker wrote: »
    How can you disagree with my range when he showed the bottom of what I described as his range?

    Just my opinion. You were right in this spot yes. But in the future I will have him on the more conservative (tighter) range.
  • HobbesHobbes
    pele1515 wrote: »
    Just my opinion. You were right in this spot yes. But in the future I will have him on the more conservative (tighter) range.

    He just showed you how light he is going to shove. How can you put him on a tighter range in the future?
  • Hellmuth's MoleHellmuth's Mole
    KQ is 34% against your JJ (39%) and Arag (27%) too risky?
  • HobbesHobbes
    Event the top 10% of his range you are ahead.
    Like you said, it's a 180 and unlike the 45 mans which is a lot about survival, you need to chip up or fire up another here.

    Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

    193,490,352 games 0.000 secs 38,698,070,400 games/sec

    Board:
    Dead:

    equity win tie pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 56.891% 56.20% 00.69% 108734756 1344285.00 { JdJs }
    Hand 1: 43.109% 42.41% 00.69% 82067026 1344285.00 { 88+, A9s+, KTs+, QTs+, AJo+, KQo }
  • pele1515pele1515
    Hobbes wrote: »
    He just showed you how light he is going to shove. How can you put him on a tighter range in the future?

    I realize how light the shove can be here. But against an villain that I have no notes on I would treat it with the more conservative range. Thats just me tho.
  • Hellmuth's MoleHellmuth's Mole
    darbday wrote: »
    you cannot see a flop for 10bbs . If you put 10bbs in you have to call, so if your opp in the bb wants to see a flop with ak and fold every time he doesn't hit, then we are very very happy

    if i think the bb was bad enough to flat 10bbs and then fold on a flop he missed then i would always flat and jam any flop that i didn't hit a set on

    Sorry, with AK I'm snap shoving behind to a shove and a flat....maybe even AQ. I didn't make that clear.
  • GTA PokerGTA Poker
    pele1515 wrote: »
    Just my opinion. You were right in this spot yes. But in the future I will have him on the more conservative (tighter) range.

    I have no idea what you are talking about here. I was 100% correct in assigning a range, but somehow next time I will be incorrect in the exact same spot?
  • GTA PokerGTA Poker
    pele1515 wrote: »
    I realize how light the shove can be here. But against an villain that I have no notes on I would treat it with the more conservative range. Thats just me tho.

    So, now that you have more info you choose to play exactly the same and not utilize that info?

    GG
  • pele1515pele1515
    GTA Poker wrote: »
    I have no idea what you are talking about here. I was 100% correct in assigning a range, but somehow next time I will be incorrect in the exact same spot?

    I'm not saying you will be incorrect next time. I'm saying in my opinion, next time, I will still keep the villain on the more conservative range. This is a difference in how we play the game. I'm not saying your right or wrong.
  • UnknownUnknown
    pele1515 wrote: »
    ...but imo its not a time you want to be SS.
    i'm not sure what you meant by this

    anyways the shover in question is new to online and not likely very good. That will make my calling range (which is a re-shove iso here), about 99+ aq+

    sometimes i will add in some aj and 88
    in a 180 man turbo 10bbs eff never fold jacks even if its 9 ways. as a matter of fact I wouldn't fold it 30bbs eff.

    these games have a lot of regs in them and you can't pick or choose spots you have to take them all.


    and the amount of people left only really matters at 19 and the ft
  • UnknownUnknown
    GTA Poker wrote: »
    I have no idea what you are talking about here. I was 100% correct in assigning a range, but somehow next time I will be incorrect in the exact same spot?
    here's a fun one....what did villains range end up being?
  • GTA PokerGTA Poker
    darbday wrote: »
    i'm not sure what you meant by this

    anyways the shover in question is new to online and not likely very good. That will make my calling range (which is a re-shove iso here), about 99+ aq+

    sometimes i will add in some aj and 88
    in a 180 man turbo 10bbs eff never fold jacks even if its 9 ways. as a matter of fact I wouldn't fold it 30bbs eff.

    these games have a lot of regs in them and you can't pick or choose spots you have to take them all.


    and the amount of people left only really matters at 19 and the ft

    I'd think regs shove wider than you're describing, no?
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