10-20 hand
This one had me thinking...which is always a good thing. Let's just say live play makes for some interesting hands compared to tight online games.
10-20 hands at Brantford.
Table makeup. Generally, loose-retarded. UTG raises are typically cold called in 3-4 spots. The play in general is pretty abysmal (a great table).
LAG 2 to my left probably is playing somewhere around 70/40/5+. He seems to really like open raising with junk in EP. He's been raising offsuit junk connectors like 76o, 54o etc. in EP. He'll raise 2 paint, etc. Obviously at this point, no-one gives much pause when he raises. Post-flop he'll bet/raise top pair. He'll call down underpairs looking to improve. If he flops any draw, it's bet/raise reraise cap time. If he is the preflop aggressor, he bets whatever he's raised preflop to the river or until somebody actually shows any aggression in the hand (headsup, it's pretty easy to rope-a-dope this guy with any marginal hand).
Anyways. I'm in MP with A3s. 3 limpers to me, and I limp. LAG raises, several cold callers, 8 to the flop (16SB).
Flop is 842 with 1 spade. So a gutshot, BD flush draw, and an overcard (albeit a sketchy one with 8 players).
What's my gameplan on the flop?
10-20 hands at Brantford.
Table makeup. Generally, loose-retarded. UTG raises are typically cold called in 3-4 spots. The play in general is pretty abysmal (a great table).
LAG 2 to my left probably is playing somewhere around 70/40/5+. He seems to really like open raising with junk in EP. He's been raising offsuit junk connectors like 76o, 54o etc. in EP. He'll raise 2 paint, etc. Obviously at this point, no-one gives much pause when he raises. Post-flop he'll bet/raise top pair. He'll call down underpairs looking to improve. If he flops any draw, it's bet/raise reraise cap time. If he is the preflop aggressor, he bets whatever he's raised preflop to the river or until somebody actually shows any aggression in the hand (headsup, it's pretty easy to rope-a-dope this guy with any marginal hand).
Anyways. I'm in MP with A3s. 3 limpers to me, and I limp. LAG raises, several cold callers, 8 to the flop (16SB).
Flop is 842 with 1 spade. So a gutshot, BD flush draw, and an overcard (albeit a sketchy one with 8 players).
What's my gameplan on the flop?
Comments
1) Fold the hand, and wait till you hit a nice flop in order to get your chips in the middle
2) Call one raise, if it's 3 bets Fold
3) Call any raises to see if you catch another spade on the turn, and hope to go runner runner....(expensive method, but if you catch your in the money)
Remember TIGHT IS RIGHT!
So, if someone is betting into the LAG, I would fold.Â
If not, check to the LAG and if it's one bet back to you, I would call, especially given the fact you close the action. If you hit your straight draw, I would continue to let the LAG bet as you don't have the nut straight. Let the others come out of the bush, and if a solid player raises I'm torn with calling down, or folding -- most likely calling down. If it gets down to me and LAG at the river, then a c/r is in order. If you've got a flush draw on the turn, check call.
If it's two bets back to you, then I'm likely folding as I don't want to pay three bets to hit a gutshot or develop a straight draw.
Cheers
Magi
This was my general line of thought when I played the hand too. I figured my good relative position would probably give me a good price. But I had a completely differing thought perspectives after thinking about the hand (remembering some old SSHE blurbs as well).
Does ANYONE considering donking right into the raiser (expecting him to raise)? I know it sounds ludicrous, but the pot is big, I'm thinking in terms of letting him hopefully blow away other hands by forcing them to call 2 cold. If I stand any chance of cleaning up my A outs, should this be my main consideration? Or do I want everyone else in the pot to give me better pot odds?
Hence, do I spend a few bets to potentially marginally increase my % chances of winning this pot? Even buying one or 2 outs is big here given the pot size...
Oh, and on a side note...the hand details are slightly blurry (end of a 16 hr session). I'm not 100% on that top flop card, could be anywhere from a 9 to a 7 I think. And yes, depending on the card, that would potentially diminish my gutshot outs slightly (as initially I was treating them as a full 4 outs, maybe I should slightly reduce that, by maybe half an out).
Terrible.
Terrible.
The pot is a monster, be more creative.
I like it if you were holding more of a hand. As it stands now, you REALLY wanna see that next card for as cheap as possible. I predict that if you lead into him, you'll get a 3-bet from someone who is ahead of you but ruins your odds to draw.
Now switch up your holding to middle pair + outside draws and I like it. Something where your hand as more immediate value than ace high.
You'd pump the *turn* of limit poker with nothing more than ace high, a flush draw and a BD straight?
Talk about slitting your throat.. Knock out players that will pay you off *AND* put more into the pot when behind *AND* kill your drawing odds. The best of all worlds of losing poker!
#1 - there was no maniac in that hand
#2 - You are not in late position so you are a little less likely to buy a free card on the turn, esp. with maniac behind you
#3 - Maniac is much less likely to have a big ace since his raising range is so broad, so it's less important to get him to fold
It's easy to think that way because you have no idea how to play poker. I'll give you a free hint: Pot Equity.
Sure, if you just happen to just drop in 6 players willing to call/raise to the river then almost any two cards are good. I think it's more likely that you've got 3 players going to the river, of which, your 20ish percent chance to win doesn't justify pumping.
How is it any fun to over contribute to a pot?
*CLARIFY* your position next time. The way you wrote it originally you'd 'pump' irrespective of the number of callers.
BBC Z did you change your name? ( kiddingÂ
Welcome aboard, glad to see we attract the largest percentage of rude a-holes compared to other poker communities. Leave the personal attacks out, you're other comments are worthwhile, no need to taint them.
I'm thinking you have to dump the hand, the only cards that will give you the best hand is runner/runner spades.
If the 5 comes and makes your straight some one else could easily have 67 (and with 8 to the flop some one could easily have called a 67 suited) and you would be done. Also you can not consider you Ace live as any player with A-rag will beat you if you hit the ace.
Time to save the money and fold I think.
Nah, this place just attracts more tear-jerking babies who can't handle critisism compared to other poker communities.
Okay, so I'd probably be in this hand too... LP and suited ace is in my calling range, and implied odds are fairly significant.
An idiot-end gutshot draw is no fun, but hey it may be the winner. Â The backdoor flush is also tempting... so my thinking is
8 players to the flop, that's just gross.
I may bet at my gutshot, hoping the LAG to my left re-raises, forcing others to pay heavily. (Btw, there's only 8 big bets in the pot pre-flop). Â So a bet and raise facing the other (6) limpers means they're still getting 5:1 on their money, while you're getting 10:1. Â You have the correct odds for your gutshot, and anyone else does not. Â I know this means that you're not chasing out a 67 draw, but hey, it's (IMO) the correct play. Â If you can get this down to you and the LAG, then I can assume with some certainty that my wheel would be good, if I hit an ace it's good, and running spades will make me very happy.
Turn:
If it's not a spade or 5, I"m probably done with the hand. Â If there are a lot of callers still (which I'ms ure there would be), and I"m getting the right odds for my gutshot, I would call for it on the river, and check / call just in case I got out-straighted.
Mark
P.S. Â Pokerrox: Â Welcome to CPF, and though we appreciate your input and other questions, do try and avoid personal attacks - they're both uncalled for and unhelpful. Â Show respect for fellow members and yourself.
FWIW - this is a fantastic question to ask yourself EVERY hand
Mark
As far as my opinions on the hand:
Check-fold is not an option (especially for one bet). Heck, you're probably getting the right price to call 2 cold here. If you're routinely folding "weak" draws like this when the pot odds your getting more than compensates for your "weak" draw, then you're not playing good limit poker. While it's true that you shouldn't often be delighted with a gutshot draw like this, in a big pot, it's well worth a play.
Let me put things this way. Would you call one bet in this pot on the flop with 2 overcards? If your anwser is "yes" then how can you consider folding a "stronger" draw like this one. If the answer is no, then again, you may want to re-evalute your play in loose games.
And no, I'm not posting results either...well at least not yet...too much lively discussion to ruin a thread with things as trivial as results...
Let's break it down easily. You have the gutshot, bd flush and an overcard with no kicker. The pot is already at $160. If limped to me I and I bet knowing Mr Lag it up will raise. Will that knock some people out and free up some outs? With $160 in the pot and $20 to call I think most really loose tables will still see 6 out of the 8 after that. If it's raised after lag raises what do you do? Of course lag could really confuse you and just call then you have to see what everyone else does.Â
This is one ultimate it depends depending on what happens in front of you and what you think will happen behind. I'm not folding this hand but I am not sure building the pot on a 10-1 shot really helps unless you want to gamble it up. I think the only card that really helps you is the 5s giving you the wheel and the nut flush draw.Â
In the heat of the moment I probably check call down/but after so thinking on here I maybe lead into the raiser if checked to me and take my chances realizing you aren't going to knock anyone out but it will build the pot if you actually hit. If i'm up I vote for a gamble.
Please include this action, and then the advice given can be more accurate.
Actual hand played out like this on the flop:
I check (deciding to try and get a good price using my good relative position to the LAG). Not 100% sure this was the best play...in hindsight I really like leading into him.
LAG bets, Guy to the left of LAG accidently raises (threw in a red and black chip, thinking it was 2 reds). And no, I don't think this was an angle, just a genuine error. Anways floor rules raise, loose-passive in LP calls 2 cold. Folded back to me. Pot is at 21SB, and it's 2 bets to call. Your play?