I'm kicking myself here, did I play it that badly?

DrTyoreDrTyore
in Online Poker
Hey all...

Okay brand new player at the table, no reads on him whatsoever... did i play this horribly, or just get trapped well?

STAGE #451337241: HOLDEM NO LIMIT $0.50 - 2006-09-18 22:47:28 (ET)
Table: HALLIGAN ST. (Real Money) Seat #2 is the dealer
Seat 2 - TOURPLAYA ($27.55 in chips)
Seat 3 - DUNCAN42 ($83.30 in chips)
Seat 4 - DEADMONEYRIP ($38 in chips)
Seat 5 - IM_OL_IN ($36.60 in chips)
Seat 6 - DRTYORE ($49.75 in chips)
Seat 7 - MATTSPOKER ($60.50 in chips)
Seat 8 - TFLANNY ($19.25 in chips)
Seat 9 - DRUHOANG ($100 in chips)
Seat 1 - WILKESBOOTH ($29.25 in chips)
DUNCAN42 - Posts small blind $0.25
DEADMONEYRIP - Posts big blind $0.50
DRUHOANG - sitout (wait for BB)
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to DRTYORE [Js Jd]
IM_OL_IN - Calls $0.50
DRTYORE - Raises $2 to $2
MATTSPOKER - Folds
TFLANNY - Folds
WILKESBOOTH - Folds
TOURPLAYA - Folds
DUNCAN42 - Folds
DEADMONEYRIP - Folds
IM_OL_IN - Calls $1.50
*** FLOP *** [4c 8h 9h]
IM_OL_IN - Checks
DRTYORE - Bets $5
IM_OL_IN - Raises $10 to $10
DRTYORE - Raises $20 to $25
IM_OL_IN - All-In(Raise) $24.60 to $34.60
DRTYORE - Calls $9.60
*** TURN *** [4c 8h 9h] [5c]
*** RIVER *** [4c 8h 9h 5c] [5s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
IM_OL_IN - Shows [As Ac] (Two Pair, aces and fives)
DRTYORE - Shows [Js Jd] (Two Pair, jacks and fives)
IM_OL_IN Collects $70.95 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($73.95) | Rake ($3)
Board [4c 8h 9h 5c 5s]
Seat 1: WILKESBOOTH Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 2: TOURPLAYA (dealer) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 3: DUNCAN42 (small blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 4: DEADMONEYRIP (big blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 5: IM_OL_IN won Total ($70.95) All-In HI:($70.95) with Two Pair, aces and fives [As Ac - P:As,P:Ac,B:5s,B:5c,B:9h]
Seat 6: DRTYORE HI:lost with Two Pair, jacks and fives [Js Jd - P:Js,P:Jd,B:5s,B:5c,B:9h]
Seat 7: MATTSPOKER Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 8: TFLANNY Folded on the POCKET CARDS

Comments

  • pkrfce9pkrfce9
    Horribly? No. Overplaying your overpair? Perhaps a bit. So many hands are beating you on the flop but then a weaker hand in the right hands might make the same play - note that a strong draw isn't necessarily behind you here, either. Maybe I bet a little less (2.50-3.50?) to give me room to get away from a re-re-raise.

    Hard to say for sure. The stacks aren't quite deep enough to give you a lot of options here. It possibly could have played out like so: If you go 2.50 and he goes to 5-6, you could go to 10-15. If he reraises again, he is either overplaying his hand or has you dominated. Tough call at that point. Even if he smooth called your re-re-raise, I'd be pretty cautious after that.
  • beanie42beanie42
    I like your line until he min re-raises you on the flop.  You don't want to see monsters under the bed, but your hand isn't really strong, you only got 1 pair and it isn't one of the really big ones.  Without a read, I'm tempted to fold this and pick a better spot (once I have a read or a stronger hand).  

    However, if you do decide your hand is good, your bet sucks.  Calling your bet only leaves him $10 back in a $55 with 2 cards coming.  If he's calling, all the chips are getting in there at some point.  Push here, and give him a bigger decision.
  • DrTyoreDrTyore
    beanie42 wrote:
    However, if you do decide your hand is good, your bet sucks.  Calling your bet only leaves him $10 back in a $55 with 2 cards coming.  If he's calling, all the chips are getting in there at some point.  Push here, and give him a bigger decision.

    Hrm...

    Okay, so the flop has come 9 high, what if he had A9 or a straight draw? The $20 bet means he has to call $15 into a pot that's $39. If he was on a straight draw, with 8 outs, I've taken away the odds, if he was on A9, he has 5 outs, which is even less. His remaining $14 (had he just called) on the turn makes it a $14 call into a pot of $54 (4:1ish), which is still the wrong odds.

    I don't know that my bet is that bad, IF he was drawing or had TPTK

    Mark
  • GTA PokerGTA Poker
    At that limit I think that you are usually good there. I don't play many cash games online, but extrapolating from NL sngs you'll often be shown something as awful as AQ here. More often A9, K9 etc. I think at this limit your JJ in about the same as KK in this spot given the range of hands that are willing to push at you. If you have a read on this guy as a tight player then you can get rid of it, but I think that in a typical online situation in this spot that you made a good play. Obviously you were up against a half decent player? -- I think it would be unusual to smooth call trap with AA at this limit. If he reraises preflop you can more easily dump.
  • DrTyoreDrTyore
    GTA Poker wrote:
    At that limit I think that you are usually good there.  I don't play many cash games online, but extrapolating from NL sngs you'll often be shown something as awful as AQ here.  More often A9, K9 etc.  I think at this limit your JJ in about the same as KK in this spot given the range of hands that are willing to push at you.  If you have a read on this guy as a tight player then you can get rid of it, but I think that in a typical online situation in this spot that you made a good play.  Obviously you were up against a half decent player? -- I think it would be unusual to smooth call trap with AA at this limit.  If he reraises preflop you can more easily dump.

    Which was my thinking here Dave...

    He hadn't done anything pre-flop, an EP limp suggests possibly a big hand, but to not then take advantage of the raise and re-pop it? Strange... Had he re-raised, I would have folded pre-flop because the only likely hand to try that is AA and KK IMO. As for my "read", I figured he could very well have had a suited A9 / K9, and there's always the possibility that he's one of those "It's my favorite hand" donkeys. with 97, or even 98 (which would suck, but leaves me at least 8 outs by the river draw).

    Mark
  • SirWattsSirWatts
    Min-raises are a monster a lot from weak players it seems. I don't like just folding to his flop raise because of the pot odds though but calling and seeing the turn seems a better option than raising. If he has some kind of draw you can wait for a safe turn card if you want to get it all-in or fold to a decent sized bet if you think you're beat. I'm usually dumping this at my stakes but I don't know what people's tendencies are with the minraise at lower stakes.
  • beanie42beanie42
    DrTyore wrote:
    Okay, so the flop has come 9 high, what if he had A9 or a straight draw? The $20 bet means he has to call $15 into a pot that's $39. If he was on a straight draw, with 8 outs, I've taken away the odds, if he was on A9, he has 5 outs, which is even less. His remaining $14 (had he just called) on the turn makes it a $14 call into a pot of $54 (4:1ish), which is still the wrong odds.

    You are not that big a favorite against a bunch of hands. A-rag heart with a back-door straight is still just a coin-flip with 2 cards coming against your hand (or even K's). For example:

    cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
    Ah 7h 470 47.47 520 52.53 0 0.00 0.475
    Js Jd 520 52.53 470 47.47 0 0.00 0.525

    The only thing that should really scare him is if you have a set. If you don't overbet the pot, there's enough in there to make it worth chasing. On the turn though, his odds go down, so he should get it all in now and guarantee 2 cards. If you push, not only do you put the decision on him, but you make it a mistake. Your bet only makes it a mistake for a small range of hands.

    Bottom line, even at our limits, you need to be a bit more wary of any single pair post-flop. Lots of weak hands with ugly draws will have pretty good odds against you. NL is about playing small pots till you get a monster, and 1 pair (even aces) isn't. At least that's my opinion (after getting stacked repeatedly)...
  • magithighsmagithighs
    What Beanie says!

    Also, with that flop you're really not trying to protect your hand and make the draws pay, as it's really hard to make them pay.  I would say it's more important to use your position -- good article in card player this month talking about position and how few people really use position properly.  You can use your position to keep the pot small.  There's no real harm in checking this flop as his hand range will include small pocket pairs which will pay you off and/or a set which you will pay off and/or an really good draw which you can decide to pay or not to pay.  But you have to use your position here.  Checking behind on the flop is one way of doing it.  It keeps the pot small, and he doesn't know anything about your hand.  So, I haven't seen this listed as an option -- but you need to control this hand and keep the pot small as it's not a friendly flop for your hand.

    If he has a small pocket pair, he'll likely bet the pot at the turn ~$6 and half the pot on the river or more -- say even the pot.  So, it's ~$6 + $17 bucks and you've limited your losses or made a niced tidy sum on him holding something like deuces or a draw which didn't hit.  Remember calling is just as aggressive as raising or betting if your opponent wants you to fold!

    Cheers
    Magi
  • KristyKristy
    I'm the last person who should give advice on cash games, since I'm just learning them myself-but...

    I just wondered what you put your opponent on? It seems to me that the limp from EP screams middle pair and the call confirms middle pair or better (since he knew he was only up against one opponent I think calling with AA is reasonable as raising announces his hand and allows you to get away for free or cheap). Assuming that- the only hands you're beating on the flop are 10-10 and maybe 7-7 right? Perhaps the re-raise was a bit optimistic? I know a few people might play a-qh or a-kh that way, but if thats the case you've done your job and charged them for the turn, I don't think strt draws are reasonable since you have two of the jacks and 10-7..well that money is coming back to you in the long run.

    IF you decided to continue in the hand I wonder if having made him already pay for the turn on a draw- you could call his raise and use your position to re-evaluate on the next betting round? Its possible that the outcome might be the same, but given the most likely hands you are up against I think the chance to see how they bet (or check) the turn before committing might be useful?

    As I said earler..just learning could be dead wrong, would love some feedback!
  • DrTyoreDrTyore
    Well

    Thanks for the input guys, and I think that Lou's advice really paid off for me last night. I've heard you say "Calling is sometimes the most aggressive thing you can do", but when you put it the way you did "Remember calling is just as aggressive as raising or betting if your opponent wants you to fold!" really came in handy for this hand last night...

    <Thoughts in bold, please mock / praise freely>

    FullTiltPoker Game #1021837944: Table Colton - $0.25/$0.50 - No Limit Hold'em - 22:43:56 ET - 2006/09/20
    Seat 1: Tommy2Gunz ($11.90)
    Seat 2: Disco Hal ($51.20)
    Seat 3: rustys01 ($79.10)
    Seat 4: hifijeff ($19.25)
    Seat 5: Bzod ($43.50)
    Seat 6: andreyA ($54.95)
    Seat 7: DrTyore ($55.25)
    Seat 8: YuppiePoet ($45.90)
    Seat 9: Shimiwaza ($50)
    andreyA posts the small blind of $0.25
    DrTyore posts the big blind of $0.50
    The button is in seat #5
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to DrTyore [8d 8c]
    YuppiePoet folds
    hifijeff is feeling happy
    Tommy2Gunz folds
    Disco Hal folds
    rustys01 folds
    hifijeff calls $0.50
    Bzod calls $0.50
    andreyA calls $0.25
    DrTyore checks
    *** FLOP *** [6s 8h 2h]

    Okay, top set, but there's a straight and a flush draw out there. I am willing to throw this away on an ugly turn card because I'm going to try and let someone catch up, not a flop that likely hit a lot of people, and my hand is well disguised.

    andreyA checks
    DrTyore checks
    hifijeff bets $1
    Bzod folds
    andreyA folds
    DrTyore calls $1

    Just calling because I don't want him to get scared away - have to imagine he's on a draw or has a lower pair, and my call looks like a flush draw, hopefully I boat up.

    *** TURN *** [6s 8h 2h] [6d]

    Woo hoo! Nut boat, discounting quads, I have the best hand, and at worst am facing a two outer, soo..... milking time

    DrTyore checks
    hifijeff bets $2.50
    DrTyore calls $2.50

    Yea, that's me, a fish drawing at the flush, I hope I get there

    *** RIVER *** [6s 8h 2h 6d] [5s]
    DrTyore checks

    Here's where I thought I may be overly-trapping, if he doesn't bet, I make nothing here, but I'm hoping that he put me on a flush draw, and will try to force me orr, or I hope he's hit big, since I have the (realistic) nuts

    hifijeff bets $7
    DrTyore raises to $14

    Min-raise, looks like a weak steal attempt I'm hoping, also, the pot is now $30, and he's pot committed if he just calls, so may as well push the extra $1.25 - in fact, considering he's thrown in 11 of his 19 bucks, I think he's broke here regardless.

    hifijeff raises to $15.25, and is all in
    DrTyore calls $1.25

    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    hifijeff shows [4c 3c] (a straight, Six high)
    DrTyore shows [8d 8c] (a full house, Eights full of Sixes)
    DrTyore wins the pot ($37.55) with a full house, Eights full of Sixes
    hifijeff is sitting out


    So, Lou, I owe you a beer, less a rake! :)
  • DrTyoreDrTyore
    Actually, come to think of it, here's another hand that I really would like feedback on.

    Okay, loose PF call, but I don't mind playing loose when I feel I can get away from hands that are bad news, and this is exactly what I mean (BTW - Lou, again, the advice about controlling pot size comes into account here)

    FullTiltPoker Game #1021944391: Table Colton - $0.25/$0.50 - No Limit Hold'em - 23:11:47 ET - 2006/09/20
    Seat 1: reggaegirl5446 ($26.15)
    Seat 2: Disco Hal ($63.10)
    Seat 3: Matt The Kid ($17.50)
    Seat 4: dchase ($55.30)
    Seat 5: Midnight29 ($18.25)
    Seat 6: Mr Busypants21 ($16.50)
    Seat 7: DrTyore ($72.85)
    Seat 8: SIRQUADZ ($14.05)
    Seat 9: Shimiwaza ($87.25)
    Mr Busypants21 posts the small blind of $0.25
    DrTyore posts the big blind of $0.50
    The button is in seat #5
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to DrTyore [Jc Qc]
    SIRQUADZ raises to $1
    Shimiwaza raises to $3
    reggaegirl5446 calls $3
    Disco Hal folds
    Matt The Kid folds
    dchase folds
    Midnight29 folds
    Mr Busypants21 folds
    DrTyore calls $2.50

    Okay, here's the loose part, but I'm getting 3:1 on my money, and I think UTG is coming along for the ride too, but if he re-raises, I can get the hell outta dodge and just shrug off $2.50

    SIRQUADZ calls $2
    *** FLOP *** [Qh 7c 9c]
    DrTyore checks

    Top pair, and flush draw, but thanks to this thread, I stop myself and say "Well, there was a raise, a re-raise, and two callers beside myself here - I didn't hit this that big, and my draw is not the nut draw, let's just see what happens".

    SIRQUADZ checks
    Shimiwaza bets $8
    reggaegirl5446 raises to $16

    <AWWOOOOOOGA AWWOOOOGA> VERY tempting to call, but my thought pattern is: Raise again from a PF re-raiser... probably a big pocket pair... AA or KK, maybe even QQ (but unlikely). A RE-RAISE from the limper? AKclubs? 10-J draw, maybe clubs again? I can't really help but put someone on a big pair, and someone on the semi-bluff flush draw, meaning....

    DrTyore has 15 seconds left to act

    Damn, that's a nice pot, and I want it SOOO BAD, but I think I'm behind and my draw is either outkicked or I'm missing two outs

    DrTyore folds
    SIRQUADZ folds
    Shimiwaza raises to $24
    reggaegirl5446 calls $7.15, and is all in

    Shimiwaza shows [Ah Ac] Good read Mark!
    reggaegirl5446 shows [Kc Tc] Damn, call Jojo's psychic hotline, see if they're hiring!!

    Uncalled bet of $0.85 returned to Shimiwaza
    *** TURN *** [Qh 7c 9c] [As]
    *** RIVER *** [Qh 7c 9c As] [6s]
    Shimiwaza shows three of a kind, Aces
    reggaegirl5446 shows Ace King high
    Shimiwaza wins the pot ($55.65) with three of a kind, Aces
    reggaegirl5446 is sitting out
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot $58.55 | Rake $2.90
    Board: [Qh 7c 9c As 6s]
    Seat 1: reggaegirl5446 showed [Kc Tc] and lost with Ace King high
    Seat 2: Disco Hal didn't bet (folded)
    Seat 3: Matt The Kid didn't bet (folded)
    Seat 4: dchase didn't bet (folded)
    Seat 5: Midnight29 (button) didn't bet (folded)
    Seat 6: Mr Busypants21 (small blind) folded before the Flop
    Seat 7: DrTyore (big blind) folded on the Flop
    Seat 8: SIRQUADZ folded on the Flop
    Seat 9: Shimiwaza showed [Ah Ac] and won ($55.65) with three of a kind, Aces

    So, made a loose call (out of position, not a great hand), flopped top pair with a flush draw, and was able to get away from it. Now, I was pretty happy with myself here, and am just wondering is this me being overly proud, and this is fairly standard? Or, did I make the wrong move even by folding?

    Mark
  • beanie42beanie42
    DrTyore wrote:
    So, made a loose call (out of position, not a great hand), flopped top pair with a flush draw, and was able to get away from it.  Now, I was pretty happy with myself here, and am just wondering is this me being overly proud, and this is fairly standard?  Or, did I make the wrong move even by folding?
    Love the play, both the pre-flop call and the fold.  This "should" be fairly standard (in my opinion), but it is difficult to make it an automatic response, since you get attached to big hands / big draws, when there is a good chance your hand/draw is second-best. 

    Last night I laid-down KK on a J-high flop simply because 1-pair isn't worth going broke on (as I mentioned), and there was a raise and re-raise all-in, and the board had a flush draw and straight draw there. Unfortunately, these players were bad, and the better hand was "only" 2-pair (and only a backdoor flush draw and inside straight draw), but I was happy with the laydown, since I'm not interested in risking being in a massive pot on a coin-flip (or often worse) post-flop.  Others may argue the "higher risk, higher reward", but I prefer to try to play small pots with small hands post-flop (AA is a small hand post-flop, especially with decent opponents).  If you have a big enough skill edge against your opponents, you can pick your spot (and not simply feel "forced" to put in all your chips everytime you have big cards).  Again, this is specific to post-flop, since obviously AA pre-flop (and usually KK/QQ) isn't being folded pre-flop ;) .

    Nice hands Mark!
  • JohnnieHJohnnieH
    Attaboy, Mark.

    Well done.

    Johnnie
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