Wacky $5/$10 last Saturday at a B&M

jpeterson007

Well this is my first real post and I just had to tell someone.  This post is to ask if there was anyway I could get away from these hands(I don't think I could) as well as to show that bad things happen to you in real live poker and not just online.  I was in my local casino this last weekend and I was playing in a crazy loose $5/$10 limit holdem game.  There were two or three drunk guys and a few newbies as well as a couple local rocks.  The crazies were raising with Q/7 offsuit out of position, I know because the guy made two pair and showed the hand down.  Well the first hand that took 75% of my stack.  I had 9/10 hearts on the button and it was folded around to me.  I had been playing tight tight and thought I'd try a raise so I raised to $10 and the SB folded and the BB called.  Flop came A :h: K :h: and the J :h: So I have floppped the flush and the BB bets out I raise he reraises and I cap.  Now I know he has to have something big but I've played against this guy before and hes not that crazy so I put him on the straight or AK because he would have had to call my raise with Q/8 of hearts which I couldn't see I guess he could have but I just didn't see it.  The turn is a blank, BB checks I bet out and he calls.  This pretty much confirms in my mind that he doesn't have the nut flush.  River is another A which I really don't like but the BB checks so I try to make a value bet which is a trap play and I get raised.  I call and he shows me the AK  :d: for the full house.  I don't see how I get away from this hand at all here.  So I am down to 2 bullets maybe.  I get K/8  : on the button and call in a family pot which is a bit of a loose call.  The flop comes out 8 high with two spades and the BB bets and I raise all in because I was just out of chips. I get called by two players, the turn is a K and I have two pair.  The other two players bet once into the side pot.  Now the river is another club.  The BB bets and he is raised and folds.  I lose to the guy who called the whole way on the club draw with the A/6  :c: Now this was just the way it goes because I had to go with a hand or else I was gonna not be able to build a stack up without gambling since I only had a little bit of my stack left.  So I guess if there are any suggestions on how I could play it better I am up for all comments.  I also post this to show that no matter where you play live or online you can lose to a draw because a drawing almost always has outs until you see the river unless you have the asbsolute nuts.  Anyways hope this is post is enjoyed by all who read it.

GTA Poker

The first hand you played perfectly, you just got unlucky on the river. Even if he had the nut flush, you still played it perfectly...limit holdem is about making the right play in the same situation over the long run -- how many times would he have the nut flush to your second nut flush heads up? Not very many. You made him pay the maximum that you could to hit his 4 outer and only paid him the minimum when he hit the river, perfect.

The second hand, calling with K8s on the button in an unraised family pot is not a loose call, it is a standard and good play in this type of game. The odds of someone having the Ax of the same suit as you is roughly 16:1 I believe, so you are getting good value in a 10-11 handed pot with your suited cards. You should never play a limit hand with less than 12bb infront of you, more if there is an uncapped heads-up rule...if you are playing short-stacked for monitary reasons then you are playing at too high a limit for your current bankroll.

moose

GTA Poker wrote:

You should never play a limit hand with less than 12bb infront of you, more if there is an uncapped heads-up rule...if you are playing short-stacked for monitary reasons then you are playing at too high a limit for your current bankroll.

and he only came with $100 so that was mistake #1.

He didn't get away with the minimum on the river in hand #1. With the action on the flop and villian check/calling the turn, you have to put him on a weaker hand than a straight. AJ or JJ wouldn't be unreasonable. I don't feel river betting a paired board that was capped on the flop is a good value bet. There are a lot of flush and straight draws out there that might chase, especially if he was holding the Qh, that don't call your river bet. Obviously the villian read the hero as having flopped a straight or flush and determined that he would river bet. If they don't bet into you on the river, the straights, trips, or 2pr either will check/call or check/fold as well. On a dangerous board like this, only a hand that beats you will raise you on the river.

GTA Poker

moose wrote:

GTA Poker wrote:

You should never play a limit hand with less than 12bb infront of you, more if there is an uncapped heads-up rule...if you are playing short-stacked for monitary reasons then you are playing at too high a limit for your current bankroll.

and he only came with $100 so that was mistake #1.

He didn't get away with the minimum on the river in hand #1. With the action on the flop and villian check/calling the turn, you have to put him on a weaker hand than a straight. AJ or JJ wouldn't be unreasonable. I don't feel river betting a paired board that was capped on the flop is a good value bet. There are a lot of flush and straight draws out there that might chase, especially if he was holding the Qh, that don't call your river bet. Obviously the villian read the hero as having flopped a straight or flush and determined that he would river bet. If they don't bet into you on the river, the straights, trips, or 2pr either will check/call or check/fold as well. On a dangerous board like this, only a hand that beats you will raise you on the river.

At a typical low limit casino game I don't mind the bet/call on the river withough a read on the player. You'd be surprised how many times you are shown something like AT on the river.

moose

I don't see someone with AT who bet out and reraised on the flop into a pf raiser who doesn't also bet out the river when he makes his set. The actions don't match. If he is weak, he calls the flop raise and check/calls the river, hoping he hasn't been outkicked or boated. If he is aggressive he will bet out again on the turn or river, when the flush doesn't fill. Therefore most hands he beats will check/fold the river. Many of the hands that might check/call the river will not have reraised the flop and the hands he doesn't beat will either bet or c/r the river. A flopped straight and KJ are about the only hands that he beats AND bet this way AND check/call the river.

ScoobyD

A flopped straight and KJ , and a variety of aces are about the only hands that he beats AND bet this way AND check/call the river.

FYP. I'd bet-call here vs. typical B&M opponents and I don't think it's close. Missing way too much value here to be checking behind with a flush.

djalikool

if the board pairs, just check it down no need to river bet...what else is he in the hand for, he obviously knows you have the flush with the raise. River check by the villian is a trap, many people do that online as well.....$100 at 5/10 is suicide! You can play the tightest game, but you have to bring the luck factor into the game. You should at least sit with $200+

Try 2/5 ....where tight is no longer right!

ScoobyD

Try 2/5 ....where tight is no longer right!

The biggest difference between 2-5 and 5-10 IMO is the ungodly rake at 2-5. The play is abysmal at both. And tight is right. I'm not saying squeaky tight, obviously you can loosen up more in a loose passive game. IMO, "tight" isn't a range of hands, it's a range of hands specific to the type of game you're playing in (and to some extent on your relative position at the table).

moose

ScoobyD wrote:

A flopped straight and KJ , and a variety of aces are about the only hands that he beats AND bet this way AND check/call the river.

FYP.  I'd bet-call here vs. typical B&M opponents and I don't think it's close.  Missing way too much value here to be checking behind with a flush.

Cmon. Please look through your PT and find the hands in a full ring game that you 3 bet on the flop from the BB into a PF raiser on a suited board that has AKJ when you have A10 or weaker and post them.

GTA Poker

moose wrote:

ScoobyD wrote:

A flopped straight and KJ , and a variety of aces are about the only hands that he beats AND bet this way AND check/call the river.

FYP. I'd bet-call here vs. typical B&M opponents and I don't think it's close. Missing way too much value here to be checking behind with a flush.

Cmon. Please look through your PT and find the hands in a full ring game that you 3 bet on the flop from the BB into a PF raiser on a suited board that has AKJ when you have A10 or weaker and post them.

This situation no longer plays as a full ring game.

PT is not very relevant in a B&M setting given the much poorer play at equal limits. In addition, this is a HU situation so the flop action is not as telling, any ace with a heart kicker could easliy reraise in this situation.

moose

True. I thought about that too and actually thought I had cancelled my post but nevertheless I just don't see your typical LAG who 3 bets the flop suddenly go into check/call mode on the rest of the streets. It is just too passive. People who flat call a position raise with any A don't suddenly start 3 betting scary flops for no reason. If it hadn't gone 3 bet I would agree - bet the river. But in a game of incomplete information, I think you have to consider the flop action and be wary when the board pairs on the river.

AcidJoe

Could you tell me where this crazy loose 5/10 game is when it gets folded to you on the button? I can't say I've ever seen a 5/10 live game to folded to the button. And at anyplace I"ve been the rake for 2/5 is the same as 5/10 so if you can spank the bankroll for 3 bills instead of 1 your good to go. Sitting with 100 isn't bad provided your willing to quickly reach into the pocket if things go wrong.