rules ? - Calling an all in...I took the high road but think he was wrong

hockref

I played in my first downtown game last night and loved it. The only sore point of the evening was:

I look down to see AQc and announce all in. Folds around to the villain who says call and places 6 chips into the pot. I said "you need more chips to call my all in". He says "oh I didn't know you were all in" and proceeds to take his chips back!

The dealer tells him he has to put more chips in. The table other then his dits girlfriend tells him he has to call all in. I tell him he called but I'm not going to make a federal case of it. The girlfriend decides to get in on the act and say I wasn't all in because i hadn't pushed my chips over some imaginary line on the table.

In the end i not only let him out of the all in in the interest of harmony i also gave him his 6 chip call back.

I thought he was bound to call my all in as he said call. I also think once i let him out of it he was obliged to leave his 6 chip call in the pot.  What should have happened in this situation?

Cheers,
Steve

Zithal

From Robert's Rules of poker...

"Tournaments - 23. At pot-limit and no-limit play, the player must either use a verbal statement giving the amount of the raise or put the chips into the pot in a single motion. Otherwise, it is a string bet."

You indicated your action in a verbal statement (ie. you didn't need to move your chips in)

"Betting and Raising - 8. A verbal statement denotes your action and is binding. If in turn you verbally declare a fold, check, bet, call, or raise, you are forced to take that action."

Very clear here. You declared your action, he declared his. He did not act out of turn, so his action is binding. He should have been all in. Of course, if this were a friendly, drunk game. I'd likely give the player a break.

STR82ACE

You stated All in, he called it.

Verbal is binding. I'm surprised the dealer didn't make it stick. You shouldn't have backed down from your position, you were in the right.

ScoobyD

He should have been all in.

Technically, he should have had to CALL the allin. He didn't specify whether or not he had the guy covered.

Yes, I know, I win nit of the year award...

hockref

The guy had me covered.

if this were a game I regularly played in I would have stuck to my guns but this was my first time at this game and the only person I nkoew was the friend who invited me.

Two things make this even worse.

1. Once we are done to the final table I call the bb out of turn before this same guy. He says"it was my action and I am all in" I offer him the 12 chips I had already as I acted out of turn. If he were at all a decent human being he would have passed them back but he took them!

2. The twit girlfriend ended up winning the whole thing. I finished in 2nd getting double the buy ine back.

2a. Had the twit convinced to split the pot ( I would have got $110 instead of $40 ) and she says sure but boyfriend comes over asn tells here she can't do that.

Steve

JohnnieH

I think you've found a great fish tank to swim in!

Keep going back to this game. You'll get paid.

Also, if there is a dispute, ask the TD to find "Roberts Rules" online.

pkrfce9

If this is a 'club', it sounds like one forum members should avoid.

ChrisWinsor

When dealing with technicals ya he shoulda been committed to call you, but everyone plays with their own rules. I suggest making all your moves as clear as possible, so something like that never happens in the futur. So when you say all in, push all your chips towards the midle, but in a pile together so as you can count it if someone decides to call.

AcidJoe

There is no imaginary line. Even the rules at Rama (which the tables do have a line) say the line is NOT a betting line. But you declared your action and even if you moved no chips you were all in. Unfortunately sometimes people do not hear you say what you do. If he had just put chips in so as to call the original bet then I"d cut him some slack as long as he didn't say call.

ScottyZ

Folds around to the villain who says call and places 6 chips into the pot.

Assuming that the big blind is equal to 6 chips, there is no way that this should be considered a verbal binding all-in call. It is extremely clear that the player intended to call the big blind only, rather than an all-in bet.

If the big blind is something other than 6 chips, then some important information has been omitted in the description of the action in the OP.

The relevant Robert's Rule is the following:

11. Because the amount of a wager at big-bet poker has such a wide range, a player who has taken action based on a gross misunderstanding of the amount wagered needs some protection. A bettor should not show down a hand until the amount put into the pot for a call seems reasonably correct, or it is obvious that the caller understands the amount wagered. The decision-maker is allowed considerable discretion in ruling on this type of situation. A possible rule-of-thumb is to disallow any claim of not understanding the amount wagered if the caller has put eighty percent or more of that amount into the pot.

Example: On the end, a player puts a $500 chip into the pot and says softly, “Four hundred.” The opponent puts a $100 chip into the pot and says, “Call.” The bettor immediately shows the hand. The dealer says, “He bet four hundred.” The caller says, “Oh, I thought he bet a hundred.” In this case, the recommended ruling normally is that the bettor had an obligation to not show the hand when the amount put into the pot was obviously short, and the “call” can be retracted. Note that the character of each player can be a factor. (Unfortunately, situations can arise at big-bet poker that are not so clear-cut as this.)

ScottyZ

Meistro

by the rules he has to call your bet; it doesn't matter that he didn't know what the bet was, he is still obliged to stand by his verbal action. that being said it's a dick move to force this issue and bad karma. keep his 6 chips, let him fold. the money he put into the pot definitely has to stay. there are no mulligans, money in the pot always stays.

CrazyJoe113

let's be reasonably here, the guy obviously didn't hear that you were all in and didnt want to call it. If the 6 chips were the big blind, he should be allowed to take it back, let's not be complete dicks, even the rule that ScottyZ posted basically says, cut the guy a break.

hockref

I did cut the guy a break. Unfortunately as the even progressed if became very clear that is was extrelemly poor mannered and exactly the kind of person who would use the excuse of the noise etc to get out of an all in he thought he would lose.

I'll just go back next week and take his money ( and print out the relevant rule to show his mouthy girlfriend! ).

Cheers,
Steve

CrazyJoe113

hockref wrote:

I did cut the guy a break. Unfortunately as the even progressed if became very clear that is was extrelemly poor mannered and exactly the kind of person who would use the excuse of the noise etc to get out of an all in he thought he would lose.

I'll just go back next week and take his money ( and print out the relevant rule to show his mouthy girlfriend! ).

Cheers,
Steve

I know you did, I was more talking about everyone else in the thread that was saying he should be forced to call. There's no way this is an angle, what does he gain from this? You say all-in, he calls, but immediately changes his mind so he makes up an excuse? I don't see it. He might be an as*hole, but you are the bigger person, take solace in that.