"The Ungrateful Seven" suing WPT
For those who haven't heard, Andy Bloch, Annie Duke, Chris Ferguson, Phil Gordon, Greg Raymer, Joe Hachem, and Howard Lederer are banding together to sue World Poker Tour Enterprises.
Here's a short version of why they're suing. When ever a player enters a WPT event they have to sign some legal documents that involve a whole crap load of pages. It basically says that WPT can use the rights to your name and image in certain situations. They can't make commercials with your picture in it or anything like that. But what they can do, and what they do do is use that players name in their games. I think for the starting credits of the show where it shows past winners, they can do that without their permission as well. This group of 7 is also suing over "Conspiring Casinos" WPT signed a deal with MGM as well as other Casinos where in they will only allow poker tournaments held by the WPT and no others.
http://wptlawsuit.com/
That article is written by Phil Gordon.
Here's what Daniel has to say
http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/video_diary/
Click on Long Balls and lawsuits, it's in the last third of the video.
http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-forum/index.php?showtopic=68888
Here's a 9 page forum conversaion started by Daniel on the FCP forums.
Here is a copy of the entire complaint.
http://wptlawsuit.com/files/29194-27742/Complaint.pdf
I suggest reading #1-25.
I still don't know all the details, but i'm inclined to agree with Daniel. The WPT has never done anything malicious with the "intillectual property" of the professionals that paly in their events. They may use the names of past winners on their site or during their show. They have the names of the players and an image of them in their games I believe. Other than that it stops there. These 7 players are saying they somehow lose money over this... or that it's unfair that they have to sign these documents in order to play in the WPT tournaments (WSOP does this as well). Daniel is 100% right in saying that they are "biting the hand that feeds the mouth"
WPT helped create the poker world and has helped most of the careers of these 7 players. Howard Lederer had no luck at all in the WSOP, but after winning 2 WPT titles became a big game and has a huge success selling books, DVDs and other crap merchandise. Not to mention winning the milllion or so for coming in first. It seems like these 7 are either greedy or so caught up in their ideals they've lost sight of the big picture.
The second part of their case is just a steaming pile of crap. The WPT signed a contract with all of these Casinos so that the WPT would be the only poker tournaments held at their casinos. They ungrateful 7 are saying that they're controlling the market for televised poker tournaments and that it's essentially a monoply. Um wtf? There are tons of other Casinos in Vegas and around NA. These Casinos signed a contract with WPTE, nothing illegal there. Once their contracts are up other Casinos will probably compete for these contracts.
As far as televised tournaments other than WPT, i know of the WSOP, Ultimate Poker Challenge, then all those ones created by online sites like Ultimate Bet's 200K tourny, Daniel's Protoge, soon to be Moneymaker's Millionare. I'm sure there are other's in the states i don't get to see here in Ottawa. Plus there are crap load of European ones.
I think this is going to bring nothing but trouble, to the already muddy name of poker in the U.S, and will result in a loss, humiliation and crippling of the group of 7. They think they're acting on behalf of the entire poker community and are going to get a rude awakening soon.
Thoughts?
Here's a short version of why they're suing. When ever a player enters a WPT event they have to sign some legal documents that involve a whole crap load of pages. It basically says that WPT can use the rights to your name and image in certain situations. They can't make commercials with your picture in it or anything like that. But what they can do, and what they do do is use that players name in their games. I think for the starting credits of the show where it shows past winners, they can do that without their permission as well. This group of 7 is also suing over "Conspiring Casinos" WPT signed a deal with MGM as well as other Casinos where in they will only allow poker tournaments held by the WPT and no others.
http://wptlawsuit.com/
That article is written by Phil Gordon.
Here's what Daniel has to say
http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/video_diary/
Click on Long Balls and lawsuits, it's in the last third of the video.
http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-forum/index.php?showtopic=68888
Here's a 9 page forum conversaion started by Daniel on the FCP forums.
Here is a copy of the entire complaint.
http://wptlawsuit.com/files/29194-27742/Complaint.pdf
I suggest reading #1-25.
I still don't know all the details, but i'm inclined to agree with Daniel. The WPT has never done anything malicious with the "intillectual property" of the professionals that paly in their events. They may use the names of past winners on their site or during their show. They have the names of the players and an image of them in their games I believe. Other than that it stops there. These 7 players are saying they somehow lose money over this... or that it's unfair that they have to sign these documents in order to play in the WPT tournaments (WSOP does this as well). Daniel is 100% right in saying that they are "biting the hand that feeds the mouth"
WPT helped create the poker world and has helped most of the careers of these 7 players. Howard Lederer had no luck at all in the WSOP, but after winning 2 WPT titles became a big game and has a huge success selling books, DVDs and other crap merchandise. Not to mention winning the milllion or so for coming in first. It seems like these 7 are either greedy or so caught up in their ideals they've lost sight of the big picture.
The second part of their case is just a steaming pile of crap. The WPT signed a contract with all of these Casinos so that the WPT would be the only poker tournaments held at their casinos. They ungrateful 7 are saying that they're controlling the market for televised poker tournaments and that it's essentially a monoply. Um wtf? There are tons of other Casinos in Vegas and around NA. These Casinos signed a contract with WPTE, nothing illegal there. Once their contracts are up other Casinos will probably compete for these contracts.
As far as televised tournaments other than WPT, i know of the WSOP, Ultimate Poker Challenge, then all those ones created by online sites like Ultimate Bet's 200K tourny, Daniel's Protoge, soon to be Moneymaker's Millionare. I'm sure there are other's in the states i don't get to see here in Ottawa. Plus there are crap load of European ones.
I think this is going to bring nothing but trouble, to the already muddy name of poker in the U.S, and will result in a loss, humiliation and crippling of the group of 7. They think they're acting on behalf of the entire poker community and are going to get a rude awakening soon.
Thoughts?
Comments
Exactly! And it's definitly true for Lederer and Gordon. They make a killing on their books and DVDs
(woot, more enemies!!)
What I agree about was how Phil Gordon put it, something along the lines of, the WPT can advertise my face saying I'm a fish or replaying one of my less finer moments without his opinion or compensating him. Regardless I think they sign the waiver and have to deal with the restrictions, if they don;t agree don't play. Perhaps a better solution would have been to rally support of some more pro's and boycott the WPT until they change the existing contract.
Try a google search or one on 2+2 and you can find some good conversations with Raymer vs. Negreneau and Phil talking at Full Tilt.
1) The WPTE generates money. How come none of that money makes it back into the prizepool or the participating players pockets? They're still paying entry fees remember.
2) The exclusivity agreements preclude those casinos from doing any other TV show. This limits the number of tournaments that can be run, thus, limiting thier potential exposure.
Sound like a legit basis for a court case to me.
'Ungrateful'? WTF? WPTE is a corporation generating revenue. Why should they have any emotional attachment to them?
WPT has been incredible for Poker, almost as good if not better in some aspects, than the WSOP coverage.
The one problem I have is the deals with the casino. Limiting who casinos deal with could be seen as a monopolistic practise, so there are fairly decent arguments on both sides. Â I say that WPT drop the deal with casinos and then everything is fine in my books.
Dave
they sure can, and they have, this is where it gets dicey, they can use any footage from their show however they like without having to ask the people in it. I don't think that's right, I think they should be able to use it for commercials for the WPT broadcast and that's it, no videogames, no camps, no online sites.
The same thing will happen to WPTE. Hopefully, WPTE will bow to player and public pressure, and modify their contracts and blind structure without the need for an expensive and messy court battle.
CanadaDave how do you see them making a deal with these casinos as a problem? This is how the business world works. There are tons of other casinos other people can host their tournaments at. These casinos want to host WPT tournaments cause they make a killing off them, and WPTE wants to have their tournaments at the biggest well known casinos and want those casinos to get the rep. host WPT tournmants and nothing else. If the WPT made this deal with all the Casinos in Vegas, well than ya that's controlling the market and not allowed... but they're not.
CrazyJoe can you find me a commercial for the WPT that shows say Howard Lederer in it? Or one of these other 7? And frankly what does it matter if they have a commercial "You can be like Howard Lederer and win 2 titles!!!" How does that hurt him financially in any way? It doesn't. In fact it benefits him. And hes saying he should then also get paid for that? That's friggin greedy man.
um lol wtf does the WPT's blind structure have anything to do with this blondefish? The Microsoft - Netscape deal is completely different from the lawsuit vs WPTE. Microsoft's software didn't support alot of Internet WEb Browers, hindering competition. They used their monoply to buddle IE with their Windows software, instead of DLing it like you had to do with Netscape, of course most people had dial-up so to get Netscape it was damn slow... Microsoft had a complete monopoly and used that to severly hinder and undermind competition. WPTE has made a legal deal with 25 or so Casinos. Excuse me if i'm wrong but there are lot more Casinos in Las Vegas, Rio, Atlanta and NA as a whole that don't have a contract with WPTE than those that do.
I'd really like to hear from the pros who post here (dave, Devo, Johnny Lou)
actual facts or legal precedent, his take on the issue seems to make sense.
Here's Lipscomb's letter.
http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_news/news_story/744?class=PokerNews
sstar
The casinos don't make a killing directly off of hosting a tournament such as the WPT, it merely brings credibility and a great deal of exposure to the properties (WPT actaully goes to 150 countries). The WPT is used as a marketing tool for the casinos, not a money-making gaming venture. A tournament like the WPT is extremely expensive to operate, and often they run at a deficit for the casino. They also hope to make money off the added foot traffic, and no, not poke,r as it is by far the least profitable part of any casino. Many casinos were removing poker rooms prior to the WPT and the start of the poker boom. The entry fees do not go to the WPT at all, they go to the casino for operations. Take Fallsview, they have a $300 entry fee, if they get 300 people they will receive $90,000 to cover Dealers wages, managing, food, marketing, etc - not a great deal of money. The casino pays the WPT a very modest fee to host the event, the WPT makes their money from selling the shows to TV, DVD sales, merchandising, etc. Don't believe me, check their financials, they are a publicly traded company.
The disclosure form for the WPT is actually a great deal LESS binding than the disclosure form for the WSOP. If you read them side by side, you would not want to sign the WSOP form, they own you. Another thing that Howard Lederer very selectively does not disclose is that he is on the player advisory panel for the WPT.
The blind structures. The WPT dictates the blind structures for the final tables due to production costs. The final table of the WSOP lasted 16-18 hours, 10 handed. An average final table for the WPT lasts 8-10 hours, and have gone as long as 14 hours - and they are only six handed. Comapratively, it is very close to the same amount of play as a six handed table is much quicker and played very differently. People like Blondefish make uneducated reponses without knowing the total picture, a side effect of the unnecessary bad press that an incident like this brings to poker.
Many of the players, but not all, have been made by their exposure on the WPT. Those that haven't, the added exposure and contribution to the poker boom has certainly directed benefits their way, in many ways. It is definitely biting the hand that feeds you. They need to go away.
The WPT has made a great deal of money off of these tournaments. Their risk level is quite low (although at start up it was quite higher). The players in these tournaments risk their own money and only profit if they place high enough. The WPT can continue to profit off these events long after the winners have. A lot of the pros are featured prominently in their advertising. The pros signed an agreement that gave up their rights. That was their mistake. But I imagine at the time they never expected it to be a popular as it is today.
The argument that the WPT made these players who they are today is slightly wrong. The players made themselves. There are other winners on the WPT that are not household names and have book deals. A combination of the WPT, WSOP, UPC, EPT and a few others have also contributed. As for Phil Gordon, I think Celebrity Poker made him more than the WPT did. So to say that these players are ungrateful is a bit of a stretch. The WPT and the pros have a very simbiotic relationship and they made each other. The pros just want a bigger piece of the pie. I don't think they should get it but I understand their side.
If you believe Steven Lipscomb, he said in his open letter that the WPT has yet to turn a profit. I suppose it would be easy enough to verify the validity of this statement but I'm a lazy, lazy man.
As for the original question in the post. I don't think the WPT has done anything wrong or unusual and I think the lawsuit will get tossed out pretty quickly.
Can you back any of this up with any proof? Or are you just puilling things out of your ass. I have not seen any commercials for thw WPT with any of these pros in them. As Daniel and Steven Lipscomb stated, there was on case and they pulled as soon as they found out.
How is it a streth to call them ungrateful when they're suing the company that helped make poker what it is today, and subsequently create their massive paycheck?
I just find it hillarious how they're doing this to the WPT and not any other televised poker event wich does the exact same thing. I also find it quite bizzare that smart men like Jesus and Bloch (pretigious university graduates) would actually follow through with this... seems like they're blinded by their ideals.
Do you want to see the promotional DVD that was inside a book I bought?
The DVD case for WPT Season 3 features Negraneu and Ivey. How is that not advertisement of players?
And AGAIN, the WPT is not soley responsible for making them. Read what I said, jackass. WPT was a contributing factor NOT the only one. That's like saying Moneymaker is the sole reason that online poker is popular. These players would not be famous if they sucked.
And as for top name players, many of the top names were already top names before tv, they have helped drive the success of WPT as much as the other way around. Are you as interested in watching now that final tables are liable to have 2 players that you have ever heard of, as ou were in the early days whe n it was full of Fergusons/Brunsons and HEllmuths?
I don't know about that... unless these guys are being paid a TON of money in sponsership.. the hand that feeds them isn't the WPT it is the poker tournament, and cash games that they make their livelyhood at. With no WPT, there would still be poker.. and these guys would still be driving nice cars.
I also agree with Fusion, I do watch when there is no, or even 1 pro at a final table... but it is a lot better when you can watch someone with the personality, and the ability of a hellmuth, ivey, or mike "the mouth" at a final table. Well mike has the personality... he could use a bit more ability in the "calm-under-pressure" category. =D
<--edit--> And with that I am officially a Jr. Member.. elite here I come. lol <--end of edit-->
Look at "Mr. Excitment" Howard Lederer. A guy as BORING as he is co-hosts a poker show! Why? If it wasn't for the WPT getting his mug on TV, people would never know how smart he is, pokerwise.
ANY sport/game/activity, once TV get hold of it, can make it's paticipants rich. In the 80's, it was BEACH VOLLEYBALL, Remember? In the 90's, It was GOLF LONG DRIVE CONTESTS, and now, POKER. Beach volleyball has gone to the OLYMPICS, Golf long drive contests are still around, and POKER, well, its not going away anytime soon...
The US Gov't is trying it's hardes to keep US$ in the US and make sure that any gambling is appropriately taxed, etc. They arrested another exec taking a flight.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060907/ap_on_bi_ge/online_gambling
Perhaps I didn't consider the vastness of the endorsements a Poker Pro receives. Regarding your point about there being only 2 or 3 pros anyone could name before the WPT, just because we didn't know their name, didn't mean there weren't 100s of them out there playing poker for a liviing. I think what WPT has done is made the best (and thereby richest) pros.. just that much richer. They would still be rich, if the WPT wasn't around; because they are good at what they do best, and that's play poker.
The one thing that I also forgot to consider though, is the incredible number of Fish that the WPT has brought to the poker tables. People see it on tv, and without any research think.. hey this is easy.. and now we have millions of idiots just pouring money out of their bank accounts into the good poker players pockets... so I think I will have to agree with you now, because WPT has made it easier to be a pro than ever... it is still damn hard.. but now there is just room for more people to make a living at it.
Cheers,
=D
As far as fish go, yup, a ton more have surfaced, making a pro's life that much better.