Tournament Strategies - Is there a solid recipe for success?
Ok, this may be a lame question, I apologize for wasting time in advance if it is.
I'm trying to improve my MTT game, I love this form of poker but I just can't seem to crack the bubble, ever. I know you need to be able to read the table and adjust your playing style accordingly and obviously you need to play a solid game and I do believe luck comes into play in the later stages but I'm curious to know if there is a solid strategy people start off with in each MTT they play. Should you play more hands early when the blinds are cheap trying to catch a hand for a big score or should you play tighter early? I am a tight player but I think a solid player and I usually start off playing tight, I don't bluff a lot early or try to steal the blinds early because I don't think the risk to reward ratio is a good one so usually I stick to premium hands early. However I see so many players playing reckless poker gathering huge chip stacks calling all-ins with mediocre or worse hands, or just playing way too many hands.
As the blinds increase I will try to pick on stack less then mine and avoid confrontations with big stacks unless I have a quality hand but time and time again I find myself so short stacked come bubble time that I pretty much am waiting on hand to go all-in on. Last night I was playing on PokerRoom in a tourney of about 500, top 30 pay and with 38 left I'm sitting below average with about 6,000 in chips, blinds are 400-800 and I pick up ATo in the BB 4 players in the pot and the flop is a 3d6hTs and I push getting a call from the bigstack sitting on 25,000 in chips and he shows K2d. This is not a bad beat, I expected a call from him with any two cards he had me covered at over 4-1 in chips, turn is a blank and the river is a black 2 and I'm out. I believe in my last 6 MTT's I have been is a position where I had to push and I was happy I was always ahead pre-flop when the cards flipped, however it was always against a large stack who caught enough to put me out. Frustrating for sure but I do not blame the other players play what is frustrating for me is that I always find myself in this position so I have to attribute it to my style of play.
To get to my very vague question there are a lot of players on this site who have great tourney success, Mr. Scharf, All Aces, Sir Watts to name a few (I know there are a ton of others so don't take offense I didn't put your name down!).....is there a solid strategy you can suggest for tournament success? Can you take me through your thought process over the course of a tourney? I think if you are either very short stacked or have a ton of chips it's obviously easier to play....if I'm desperate I'll push on pretty much any pair or any paint if I'm large I'll try to push the small stacks around, steal the blinds, and avoid fights with other big stacks but I find it very difficult to play when say your M is say 10-15...I find I tighten up considerably as my M drops to around 10 and lower, is there a strategy to try and get out of this M zone or are you in push mode at this point?
I'm trying to improve my MTT game, I love this form of poker but I just can't seem to crack the bubble, ever. I know you need to be able to read the table and adjust your playing style accordingly and obviously you need to play a solid game and I do believe luck comes into play in the later stages but I'm curious to know if there is a solid strategy people start off with in each MTT they play. Should you play more hands early when the blinds are cheap trying to catch a hand for a big score or should you play tighter early? I am a tight player but I think a solid player and I usually start off playing tight, I don't bluff a lot early or try to steal the blinds early because I don't think the risk to reward ratio is a good one so usually I stick to premium hands early. However I see so many players playing reckless poker gathering huge chip stacks calling all-ins with mediocre or worse hands, or just playing way too many hands.
As the blinds increase I will try to pick on stack less then mine and avoid confrontations with big stacks unless I have a quality hand but time and time again I find myself so short stacked come bubble time that I pretty much am waiting on hand to go all-in on. Last night I was playing on PokerRoom in a tourney of about 500, top 30 pay and with 38 left I'm sitting below average with about 6,000 in chips, blinds are 400-800 and I pick up ATo in the BB 4 players in the pot and the flop is a 3d6hTs and I push getting a call from the bigstack sitting on 25,000 in chips and he shows K2d. This is not a bad beat, I expected a call from him with any two cards he had me covered at over 4-1 in chips, turn is a blank and the river is a black 2 and I'm out. I believe in my last 6 MTT's I have been is a position where I had to push and I was happy I was always ahead pre-flop when the cards flipped, however it was always against a large stack who caught enough to put me out. Frustrating for sure but I do not blame the other players play what is frustrating for me is that I always find myself in this position so I have to attribute it to my style of play.
To get to my very vague question there are a lot of players on this site who have great tourney success, Mr. Scharf, All Aces, Sir Watts to name a few (I know there are a ton of others so don't take offense I didn't put your name down!).....is there a solid strategy you can suggest for tournament success? Can you take me through your thought process over the course of a tourney? I think if you are either very short stacked or have a ton of chips it's obviously easier to play....if I'm desperate I'll push on pretty much any pair or any paint if I'm large I'll try to push the small stacks around, steal the blinds, and avoid fights with other big stacks but I find it very difficult to play when say your M is say 10-15...I find I tighten up considerably as my M drops to around 10 and lower, is there a strategy to try and get out of this M zone or are you in push mode at this point?
Comments
In my opinion, the biggest asset in a Muti Table is to have no fear and put the decision on the other guy especially at bubble time. Obvioulsly if you are a short stack, it hampers your ability to do this. However, if I have an appropriate stack and an active medium size stack makes a raise in an unopened pot, I will not hesitate to come over the top with a variety of hands. It will often take down the pot right there...or with a continutation bet....or you actually spike a hand. Obviously, you must employ this strategy carefully and against the right opponent (i.e. not against the rock who has folded 30 straight hands and has just opened from UTG). Calculated aggression...can't try this too many times...but an effective tool to steal some necessary chips.
If I ever think I am 50/50 in a hand....I'll push and roll dice(***Clarification....I will put the decision on the other player...if they fold great...if they call..I'm ready to gamble....I don't mean call any draw***) Nothing worse in my opinion than hanging around for 2 hours to limp into the money. Position is key as well.....KQ suited, A-10 are pretty hands that I routinely muck in early position. I would rather take my chances with 9/10 suited on the button. Controlled Aggression....just my 2 cents.
General strategy is pretty basic. TAG in early position and early in the tourney. LAG in late position and the middle stages of the tourney. Also start to take more coin-flips, especially at this level, since you need to win quite a few just to see the money. I've tried to start taking these flips earlier in the tournament since I don't want to waste time playing and get busted on the bubble. As reckless as it sounds, I want to get it all-in at least a few times before first break, so I can actually have enough chips to play with the fish who got lucky. Bust quickly or have a stack at the bubble.
Just keep playing solid and be patient - your time will come...
I guess the other point is don't be afraid to gamble. Push any edge and try to get all the chips. The real money is at the final table, especailly the top couple spots. Don't be afraid to take coinflips, and don't be afraid to get all-in as an underdog if the pot odds are correct. People who say "I'm a good player I could have waited for a better spot instead of gambling there" generally overestimate how good they are, and how much of an advantage that skill really is. The key in the late game is finding and taking all profitable situations. Many of these don't require you to have a good hand. In fact, when your M<5 you're generally better off trying to go all-in to steal the blinds from late position with absolute garbage than waiting on a good hand, again depending on how the other players play. I guess my final point is that there's so much luck/variance in these things that it can be a long long time before you win one, especially if the fields are big. Playing some smaller field events is something I'd definitely recommend even if the payday at the top isn't as big, since at least you have a better chance to get there.
some thoughts:
Yes, I'm still playing tourneys under $10 and I agree the quality of player in these is likely no where near players at the higher levels..although I imagine there are plenty of rich donkeys in the world to fill up all levels on-line. I like what you said here Trevor and it's very true I get very frustrated when I am so close to the bubble and bust...like a recent tourney where the top 300 pay I was actually average stack and pushed my AA on a K high ranbow flop against a player I thought was very loose putting him on a weak K, sure enough he called with KQo and caught a Q on the turn to bust me, I finished 304th. I wasn't pissed at his call, I wanted it but I was pissed that I always seem to be average or more likely below average come bubble time and I had invested a couple hours...the waste of time is really what bothers me most. I need to be in better shape come bubble time and focus more on winning then making the money. I don't know why I think this way but even in a $3 tourney I think if I can make the money then I can really open up and play...a common if incorrect way of thinking, I have to change that!
Thanks Mike and Otto_Troy, obviously I have no problem getting all my chips in if I think I'm ahead but I do think I fold too much, I recognize that I need to get a better handle on odds and not be afraid to shove my chips in there if my odds are good.
I think this is a big leak in my game, I let my M get too low before making a move such that when I make a move it's an easy call for a large stack.
This was my approach as well, however I was not seeing a lot more hands as cheap as possible, I think I am over-tight and need to take advantage of position and cheap blinds to widen my early range of hands to include small pairs and suited connectors.
Thanks again everyone, some excellent tips!
ps. You can call me Troy in the future.
I see that Sox logo, go Tigers!!
Or something like that...
Just MHO.
I certainly agree with you guys but I never said it was not fun, it is always fun for me whether it is a freeroll or a real money buy-in and I don't think poker is a waste of time for me, I do love the game...and there is something to learn every single session. Eventhough I don't think poker is a waste of time win or lose, I do feel I've wasted my time if I come away empty handed. I believe those are two different things. I know you can't win them all but anyone who invests a few hours of their time and comes away without anything to show for it will be dissappointed, if you're not then you're not human. I agree you have to love the game to be able to put in the time and dedication it takes to become a good player but I also believe you can waste time at something you love and you can be disappointed if you're level of skill at something you love is not where you want it to be. I play a lot of hockey and baseball and golf and I am always happy to be on the ice, diamond, or golf course but when I'm not playing well I'm not happy with myself, I still love the playing but I also want to play better every game and I want to win every game I play. What this comes down to is that I'm finding myself in a similar situation frequently in MTT's, obviously it's due to how I am playing...I love this game enough that I'm not happy with that, I just want to improve.
Here are some of my thoughts.
I do. I play tight initially (at least 20 hands) trying to categorize my opponents. Then I loosen up to my usual "game mode" and basically go looking for opportunities to get it in with the best of it.
Also I note (from a great article from Sgt Rock called "The Delta Factor" which can probably be googled) that you must be playing differently than your opponents in order to have an overlay. In other words, if everyone plays the same then nobody has an edge. I try to identify how I can play differently than "the field" in order to garner an edge from this table. This may be as simple as playing the same starting hands as the others but playing better post flop or it may be as complex as playing every hand pre-flop with a limp. It all depends upon what I think the other playes are doing. I must be different -- in a way that creates an edge.
If this is a re-buy tournament this may not be a bad strategy. Basically you decide "I am going to take every situation that has possibilities until I build a big stack and then I will stop." Watch for players that don't stop. They are idiots. For example, the Lava tournament on Paradise lets you re-buy at or below 1500 -- meaning you have always buy 3000. If you get lucky and win a hand and get your hand to 6000 then STOP gambling (by which I mean taking the worst of it) because there is nothing else to be gained. Watch for players that do not stop gambling. They are idiots.
Well played.
Many big stacks make calls they should not because they think either (1) I am a big stack and I can afford to call or (2) I should try and eliminate that player. Both are stupid reasons. Look for players like this and they will give you the opportunity to double through when you are small. Which is what you want.
Got to www.CanadianPoker.com and click on "Amateur Poker Player" and then click on 2006 WSOP Manifesto. That is my most current thoughts.
Do not push around the small stacks. They are looking for a chance to get their money in. Push around the average stacks, they have something to lose.
A LOT of an online tournament will be spent with an M around 6-15. I do not think there is any magic in this zone. Basically I avoid getting my chips in with implied odds hands. I either have what I believe is the best hand or I am bluffing because I have good reasons to believe that I will win the pot. I am not speculating by calling and hoping to improve.
I will look at the other answers and may add comments.
A great point. Remember, though, to manage the pot size. Force the hard decision onto the other guy. But, make sure that you are at peace with his choice. This has a lot to do with the size of the pot coupled with the size of your stack. Do you want to make a reckless bluff that will pot commit you? Much better to make your reckless bluffs when you can excape critical damage where you are called.
Stealing is THE weapon against bad opponents. Re-stealing is THE weapon against good opponents.
I agree. You are not as good as you think you are (humans LOVE to overestimate how well they drive). And... an edge is an edge. More stupid plays have been inspired by Sklansky's (true) comment that: "Sometimes one should pass on a small edge in order to take advantage of a big edge later on." If you KNOW you will have a big edge, wait. You will never know that, though. 60-40 is a BIG edge.
I'm by no means going pro anytime soon and don't claim to be an expert but I have seen my share of final tables recently and a few wins as well ($5 -$10 MTT >500 players).
Basically I treat every tourny as unique and play according to the table much in the way that Dave described earlier - How can I vary my play to gain an advantage over the current table? Usually by doing the oppsoite (maniac vs. tight;tight vs. maniac, etc...)
One big thing that really helped me 'get over the hump' is that I stopped worrying about the chip leader's stack. I used to be so concerned that the chip leader had so many more chips than me that I would make dumb mistakes as I rushed to double-up and catch up. The truth is, most times the chip leader at the break of these smaller buy-in MTT's don't end up making the money because they just got lucky early. Because of this, patience is now a huge part of my strategy. Play solid poker, the way you described it above and your finishes should improve.
The other thing I would recomend that has been mentioned here as well. Don't be afraid to be more aggressive near the bubble, still patient and selective, but aggressive. The money is at the final table don't be afraid to gamble to get there if your stack dictates it.
btw, I totally understand what your saying about 'wasting your time'. Your not alone on that.
My SNG track record is very satisfying which I think bodes well if I ever can hit that final table but I can definitely see some reasons why I struggle at the bubble. I don't believe I am aggressive enough and I have to get over that mentality of 'don't make a mistake here or you're out' it results in playing scared, a recipe for disaster. I also realize I am not paying enough attention to the table, I'm playing my cards the same way going into every tournament...I am going to really try to focus on how the table is playing and find some way to play differently for that edge as Dave and other have mentioned. Very solid advice guys, exactly what I was looking for, thank you........now ummm, to tell my boss I have a headache and need to go home and rest in front of my computer!
Just another thought... you've been running pretty hard the last few weeks... perhaps a break is in order? I know I'm due for one m'self.
Take a week off... refresh, and recharge!
Mark
Another excellent point and something I do do when the frustration builds.......just a little side note I had to miss my hockey game last night so I decided to play the $3.00 on Stars with a new attitude and a new strategy based on some of the comments here and I must say I was very pleased with my play I played some hands I wouldn't normally play when I had position and could see the flop cheaply or had odds and they paid off nicely. I also took more time to calculate the odds better and took a few early chances when it was warranted. At first break I was twice the average stack and I kept that advantage through the bubble period at second break I was still above average and feeling very good about both my chances and my play so far. In the end I went out in the mid 100's but I cannot complain. I made some moves on some average stacks and got out drawn eventually moving in with QQ and losing when K9 calls and spikes a K on the turn, what do you do? It was a much more satisfying tourney then I have had in a long time and hopefully I can keep improving, I know where I made my mistakes and I can only strive to not repeat them. Thanks again for everyone's comments.
I'm still taking your advice Mark, I finished all my whoring last night so I'm gonna lay low for the next week and instead re-read my Harrington books.
p.s. I love those Stars turbo Horse sng's, played 6 last night and monied in 5!!!!!!!
Have you tried the Stars 5 table and 20 table SNG's? These are like small MTT's, and I find them to be the perfect intermediate point between SNG's and huge MTT's. The play in the lower level ones is absolutely abysmal.
With smaller fields you can't make a big score, but you can cash reasonably frequently and make some final tables to build up your confidence.