Some hands for discussion
Lots of real and disguised bad beats recently (including my own 
), but trying to generate some more discussion, here are some hands from .50/1.00 NL . As many have mentioned, NL is highly read-based, so I'm trying to present my reads and reasoning here. Some decisions (like the first hand) are very read-dependant, but the question remains of how much to commit to a strong read (and whether the play to that point was questionable, given my reads). Hopefully these are actually interesting to everyone...
Hand 1
Hero ($165) :kh :ks UTG raises to $4
1 fold
MP ($160) calls (tight aggressive, good player, capable of moves)
3 folds
:2s :6d :10c
Hero bets $6
MP raises to $12
min-raise - normally indicates strength, but very rare for this player - actually seems weak from her
Hero calls
:qs
Hero checks
my read is she's weak, and making a move - I expect a bet here, a check or pot bet would be strong, any bet under pot is weak
MP bets $20
Based on my read, she's weak. Is it better to call here and let her bluff again, or re-raise and end it?
Hero calls
:9s
Dumb hero. An ugly straight arrived, but don't think any hand she has would match it. But the flush is possible, although she played it very well, and I'll probably pay off a value bet here.
Hero checks
MP bets all-in $123 (pot was $72)
This seems WAY too strong a move with the flush, since she'd want to get paid. Any set she might have had would be weak enough to check behind here (she's not dumb). I really think she's making a huge move here, and I know she's capable of it. However, the bet is so big, should I go with my read, or simply fold on the chance she has it?
Hand 2
3 folds
Hero ($180) :qd :jd
MP calls (no read)
MP ($109) raises to $4 (semi-loose aggressive, not a good player, and loves to bluff)
2 folds
BB ($40) calls (no read, but bought in for min, which I always consider a bad sign)
position on the unknown player, but the maniac behind me - I think calling or folding is ok here
Hero calls
:7d :ts :9d
BB checks
bingo - OESD and a flush draw - let the maniac build the pot for my draw
Hero checks
MP bets $15
BB calls
BB call was unexpected, and now has 1/2 his chips in. However, I got great odds now, although I'm really hoping for the straight, since the flush could be dead. Thoughts?
Hand 3
UTG calls
UTG+1 calls
MP ($228) calls (semi-loose aggressive)
Hero ($158) :ks :kd MP raises to $5 (I've been getting good cards, and have won a lot of hands recently without showdown)
6 folds
UTG+1 calls
MP re-raises to $26
UTG+1 is weak or would have raised, so he'll fold. I'm lost as to where I'm at with the re-raiser though. He could have AA, but he could also have nothing, since I've been aggressive. However, I've got pot odds and implied odds for a set, regardless, so I think I have to play the hand.
Hero calls.
:as :5h :ad
MP bets $25
$25 into a pot of about $60 - he's either really weak or really strong. I tend towards weak, since a check here has to induce a bluff, he's not a great player, and I've been winning too many pots. Is this too aggressive:
Hero re-raises to $132 all-in
Hand 4
Hero ($150) :7d :8d UTG calls
yes - a wee bit loose, but the table is limping most flops
UTG+1 ($52) calls (loose player)
4 folds
SB calls (another loose player)
BB ($99) checks (tight passive - good player, but not many moves - only a bit better than ABC)
:2s :9d :10d
SB checks
BB bets $4
Hero calls
UTG+1 calls
SB calls
Big pot building, and I have an OESFD - $20 in pot
:8c
SB checks
BB bets $12
Hero calls
UTG+1 raises to $47 all-in
SB folds
BB calls
Ugh - BB pushes and I can fold, but now a tough decision. $35 call into a pot of $126. I don't think BB would do this on a draw, so he's got 2 pair or trips. UTG+1 probably has straight with either 67 or qj, but I think my flush is live. Assuming it is, it's pretty close, but closer to a fold. Thoughts?
Hand 5
1 fold
Hero ($196) :qc :ks UTG+1 calls
another passive table
1 fold
MP ($92) raises to $2 (no read, but stupid bet)
4 folds
BB ($16) calls (semi-loose passive calling station)
Hero calls
:6c :kc :jd
BB checks
take the lead and see where I'm at
Hero bets $4
MP calls
BB calls
No strength - probably good - pot is $18
:8d
BB checks
Hero bets $11
MP re-raises to $22
BB calls all-in for $10
MP must know he can't push out BB, but he still min-raises, so it's pretty enticing to call. I smell a rat, but is it too weak to fold?
Hand 6
1 fold
UTG+1 ($139) calls (loose aggressive)
3 folds
CO ($27) calls (no read)
Button folds
Hero ($166) :qc :qh SB raises to $5
UTG+1 calls
CO calls
:3c :10c :8c
Hero bets $9
$9 into a $16 pot, probably a bit weak, but I hate that flop - too weak?
UTG+1 calls
CO calls
:3d
paired, flushed board - I may be best, but I surrender - too weak?
Hero checks
UTG+1 bets $20
CO calls all-in for $13
Easy fold now? Should I have kept the lead, or did I save myself some coin?
), but trying to generate some more discussion, here are some hands from .50/1.00 NL . As many have mentioned, NL is highly read-based, so I'm trying to present my reads and reasoning here. Some decisions (like the first hand) are very read-dependant, but the question remains of how much to commit to a strong read (and whether the play to that point was questionable, given my reads). Hopefully these are actually interesting to everyone...Hand 1
Hero ($165) :kh :ks UTG raises to $4
1 fold
MP ($160) calls (tight aggressive, good player, capable of moves)
3 folds
:2s :6d :10c
Hero bets $6
MP raises to $12
min-raise - normally indicates strength, but very rare for this player - actually seems weak from her
Hero calls
:qs
Hero checks
my read is she's weak, and making a move - I expect a bet here, a check or pot bet would be strong, any bet under pot is weak
MP bets $20
Based on my read, she's weak. Is it better to call here and let her bluff again, or re-raise and end it?
Hero calls
:9s
Dumb hero. An ugly straight arrived, but don't think any hand she has would match it. But the flush is possible, although she played it very well, and I'll probably pay off a value bet here.
Hero checks
MP bets all-in $123 (pot was $72)
This seems WAY too strong a move with the flush, since she'd want to get paid. Any set she might have had would be weak enough to check behind here (she's not dumb). I really think she's making a huge move here, and I know she's capable of it. However, the bet is so big, should I go with my read, or simply fold on the chance she has it?
Hand 2
3 folds
Hero ($180) :qd :jd
MP calls (no read)
MP ($109) raises to $4 (semi-loose aggressive, not a good player, and loves to bluff)
2 folds
BB ($40) calls (no read, but bought in for min, which I always consider a bad sign)
position on the unknown player, but the maniac behind me - I think calling or folding is ok here
Hero calls
:7d :ts :9d
BB checks
bingo - OESD and a flush draw - let the maniac build the pot for my draw
Hero checks
MP bets $15
BB calls
BB call was unexpected, and now has 1/2 his chips in. However, I got great odds now, although I'm really hoping for the straight, since the flush could be dead. Thoughts?
Hand 3
UTG calls
UTG+1 calls
MP ($228) calls (semi-loose aggressive)
Hero ($158) :ks :kd MP raises to $5 (I've been getting good cards, and have won a lot of hands recently without showdown)
6 folds
UTG+1 calls
MP re-raises to $26
UTG+1 is weak or would have raised, so he'll fold. I'm lost as to where I'm at with the re-raiser though. He could have AA, but he could also have nothing, since I've been aggressive. However, I've got pot odds and implied odds for a set, regardless, so I think I have to play the hand.
Hero calls.
:as :5h :ad
MP bets $25
$25 into a pot of about $60 - he's either really weak or really strong. I tend towards weak, since a check here has to induce a bluff, he's not a great player, and I've been winning too many pots. Is this too aggressive:
Hero re-raises to $132 all-in
Hand 4
Hero ($150) :7d :8d UTG calls
yes - a wee bit loose, but the table is limping most flops
UTG+1 ($52) calls (loose player)
4 folds
SB calls (another loose player)
BB ($99) checks (tight passive - good player, but not many moves - only a bit better than ABC)
:2s :9d :10d
SB checks
BB bets $4
Hero calls
UTG+1 calls
SB calls
Big pot building, and I have an OESFD
- $20 in pot:8c
SB checks
BB bets $12
Hero calls
UTG+1 raises to $47 all-in
SB folds
BB calls
Ugh - BB pushes and I can fold, but now a tough decision. $35 call into a pot of $126. I don't think BB would do this on a draw, so he's got 2 pair or trips. UTG+1 probably has straight with either 67 or qj, but I think my flush is live. Assuming it is, it's pretty close, but closer to a fold. Thoughts?
Hand 5
1 fold
Hero ($196) :qc :ks UTG+1 calls
another passive table
1 fold
MP ($92) raises to $2 (no read, but stupid bet)
4 folds
BB ($16) calls (semi-loose passive calling station)
Hero calls
:6c :kc :jd
BB checks
take the lead and see where I'm at
Hero bets $4
MP calls
BB calls
No strength - probably good - pot is $18
:8d
BB checks
Hero bets $11
MP re-raises to $22
BB calls all-in for $10
MP must know he can't push out BB, but he still min-raises, so it's pretty enticing to call. I smell a rat, but is it too weak to fold?
Hand 6
1 fold
UTG+1 ($139) calls (loose aggressive)
3 folds
CO ($27) calls (no read)
Button folds
Hero ($166) :qc :qh SB raises to $5
UTG+1 calls
CO calls
:3c :10c :8c
Hero bets $9
$9 into a $16 pot, probably a bit weak, but I hate that flop - too weak?
UTG+1 calls
CO calls
:3d
paired, flushed board - I may be best, but I surrender - too weak?
Hero checks
UTG+1 bets $20
CO calls all-in for $13
Easy fold now? Should I have kept the lead, or did I save myself some coin?
Comments
I like bet on the flop - 2/3 size of pot. When she raises though (since you look like your standard continuation betting), I would re-raise to see where I"m at. If she hit top pair (only real thing you can put her on) don't let her draw for free.
Turn I bet again, there's now an ugly straight and flush draw out there, I will make them pay to beat me.
River - well, I doubt I'd have gotten this far, but if she's betting that much.... I probably fold.
Hand 2
Hmm.. I re-raise here, shows a lot of strength. On that board, you may even have outs with your Q and J - brining your outs to 21.... but realistically I'd say you have maybe 13 outs. I"m putting MP on a big pair he's protecting - KK / AA. With the pot at about 12.50, +30 = 42.50, I probably raise it another 40 bucks, and hope I isolate.
Hand 3
I can't imagine slow=playing AA from MP, so I may re-raise, but if he's that wild, a call is fine. The board is nervous-looking though.
Hand 4 - Push all in pre-flop, and hope everyone calls...
Okay.. wait... seriously now.
Umm... yea... even I may have folded UTG... I don't know what to say there... mostly reads
Hand 5
I think if you're going to play this hand from EP, you gotta raise with it = about 3.50 / 4?
given the rest of the hand, MP may have something like AQ suited diamonds to re-push, hoping to isolate / take it down.
Hand 6
I think someone's flushed, so you're drawing to two outs.
Fold
Mark
1) I think you have to raise the turn. Â There's too many draws out there with that card. Â I think I'm putting in a pot sized reraise on the turn. Â As played the river is tough since you've shown no strength and villain may try to push through a bluff on the scare card.
2)I don't like taking a weak line on that flop. Â If you're checking, I think it should be with the intention of putting in a big check-raise. Â Your draw is too big, and I have no problems trying to get all my chips in on that flop. Â I don't even hate a lead hoping for a raise so that you can push over the top.
3)I don't really like the push. Â Personally, I think I see the big preflop raise as a bit of weakness (hoping to end the pot quickly). Â Given the raiser is semi-laggish I think I re-pop him preflop. Â Given you called, I actually like the flop. Â 2 aces is better than one, and a LAG almost never leads out with AK on a flop that big. Â The bet looks like a feeler with a smaller pair. Â I'm happy to call to induce him to bluff a weaker pair (I like flat calling here as opposed to hand one because in general there's probably only 2 cards that can hurt your hand here whereas in #1 theres any spade, an A, and a myriad of straight completing cards). Â
4)You're getting almost 4:1. Â It's close. Â I think you probably have at least 8 outs, but I seriously doubt if any of your straight outs are good. Although in some circumstances they will be (against 2 pair hands). Â I think given that your opponents are loose and don't necessarily have to have a straight here to move in swings this to a call.
5)This one is just odd. Â You're right, something stinks. I can't see how TPKK is good here against a reasonable player, but I also don't see how any reasonable player min raises a legitimate monster (set, AA, or KJ) here given the very draw heavy board. Â I could see an aggressive opponent making a semi-bluff raise here maybe with a big draw like 97c, or T9c. Â Think this one comes down to a read. Given the fact that the players are fairly passive, I'd guess a poor (weak) raise with 66,JJ or KJ here giving great odds to a draw is more likely than them making a semi-bluff raise with a big draw.
6) I hate this laydown. I wouldn't fear a flush there. Â Your lead will look like a cont. bet. You have an overpair and the Qc to back you up. Â Given you get 2 callers though, I wouldn't really count on a club helping your hand. Â I'd expect one of the callers to have a T here and the other a big club. Â I'd have led the turn on the brick, trying to give the flush draw a bad price to continue. Given you checked (which will immediatly look like you missed the flop), I think you can easily reraise the lag here. Alternatively, you can call and hope to induce a river bluff, but if the river is a club you're going to have a tough time sorting out whether the lag was the one on the draw or the allin guy. Â Which is why I'd probably have preferred to raise the turn...
1.Looks like a set or something to me, I'd usually fold the river (I like your play until that point). If you have some kind of read that she's weak then I guess you could call but I'd want a good reason to do so. A set is never checking behind the river here though I'm not sure what that comment is all about.
2. Lead the flop and push over a raise. You have a huge draw and you should play it strong. As played checkraise all-in.
3. I like the call of the reraise planning to get it all-in on any flop without an ace. This is a tricky flop for your hand and it sounds like you panicked. Pushing all-in here is very bad because you're folding out all the hands you want to stay in (QQ & JJ) and getting called by any ace. The small bet could mean weakness or huge strength but you don't know yet. Call and see what they do on later streets. If they check the turn you check behind and if they again check the river you value bet. Control the pot size as much as possible and leave yourself a chance to get away.
4. I guess you have to call. You're getting almost 4:1 and your flush outs are usually clean at least, and you will sometimes have more.
5. I really don't like folding here even though you're probably beat. I guess maybe a call planning to fold to most river bets unimproved is ok since you probably have outs. Folding probably is fine but I don't like making a habit of folding my good hands to minraises. Seems too exploitable.
6. You have a very strong hand, lead for more on the flop. I'd bet again on the turn, or at least call that bet, you still have a very strong hand and $20 isn't really a very big bet into that pot.
from Hand 1: With all the draws made on that board, I would think a set is too weak to fire again - bad thinking?
from Hand 2: Despite being a big draw, it's still a draw, so I'm looking to hit it as cheaply as possible. It sounds like this is way too passive.
from Hand 3: It seems like panic, but it was actually planned. I really don't think this guy has an A - probably a moderately big pair (JJ or QQ). I didn't expect any normal action, and thought the push (make it look like a bluff) was the only chance of getting paid.
from Hand 6: 1 vote for the flush being there, 2 say no. I hadn't thought about how my bet looked like a continuation bet (thanks Scooby), so I probably should have stuck around. I think this may have just been MUBS
Hopefully you like this thread Andrew! I think it's clear based on how I played some of these that it is definitely not "how great I am"
As an aside, I'd really love to see more HH, especially NL. Some have commented about how difficult it is to discuss due to reads, but hopefully by providing the reads (as above) we can get some more debate going.
I don't understand what draws there are to be worried about. Some backdoor flush or backdoor straight draw that you never would have stayed on the flop with? Of course a set is betting again. Am I misreading something? This does not seem like a scary board at all.
Hand #2 - I am leading this flop and pushing over any raise. As you played it it worked out pretty well, but you have to c/r the flop all in. Any smaller raise pot commits you and a push isn't really that much of an overbet.
Hand #3 - Many people advocate not three betting PF with KK. This is IF your opponent can get away from QQ/JJ if you three bet AND they have a very narrow range of hands (AK/JJ+). This is not the case against a loose aggressive player. I would push here, or raise to $80 getting it all in on any flop, but I prefer push as it looks like a suspicious overbet. As played, if I saw this flop, I would just call down as it is a way ahead way behind situation and I want to allow my opponent to bluff.
Hand #4 - You generally cannot play suited connectors profitably from upfront unless you have a very good handle on the table. That being said the play is only slightly -EV if that so whatever.
I would raise his $4 bet to $16 but calling is OK because you have such a strong draw. That being said, raising is best. You have a monster and want to get money in the pot fast. On the turn you have a very easy call given the size of the pot and strength of your draw.
Hand #5 -
If you are leading, which you should be, you should lead for full pot. This both charges draws and creates value against weaker hands as well as protects your hand from getting outdrawn. MP usually has you beat on the turn so I would lay this down. If he is the type to raise the turn with less than top pair good kicker you will find out soon; make a note and make a read.
Hand #6 -
With two callers I am making this $6 out of the SB, which is a slight difference, yes, but I find it very important to charge players to play against you while you are out of position the whole hand. Your flop bet is terrible; you have the Qc and nothing to be afraid of. You have a very strong hand but need to protect against the lone Ac or Kc, as well as build a pot against a hand like A10 no club, Jc10x, 9c9, Jc9x, all hands that will call a pot bet and have outs against you.
The turn is a GREAT card for you, giving you almost certainly best two pair. You may be beat by a flush or a set but you just picked up more outs against a flopped set and still have to protect your hand. I am leading pot and comfortable with getting it all in. As played I am check raising to $65 here and getting it all in on alot of rivers.
So, in short, go all in more
Good luck and keep posting.
Hand 1:
If you're reading her as weak, then she could easily be holding something like AT here. I agree that the bet on the end is unlikely a flush, (unless that play is really tricky, and thinks that this is the only way that you'd pay her off) It could be a spade draw with something like 9Ts. The only other thing I could see is a meduim strong hand, that's now scared for the flush and is betting in panic mode.
Yeah, unless she had an ugly two pair, I can't imagine too many hands that beat you here that would justify this kind of bet. Call.
(I think I would try to take it down after the turn though, I'm not a huge fan of the turn check-call)
Hand 2:
BB's playing for all his chips here, regardless of the rest of the hand, so I think his action to what ever you do becomes a non-factor. It sounds like, based on your read, you want all of MP's chips in the pot right now. Riase enough to put the BB all-in and hope MP comes along for the ride. If you brick on the turn, you have the option of pushing in early position as you'd almost have to call the other $60ish bucks that MP has left to push with.
Hand 3:
With very few draws on the board, I'd be tempted to flat call the bet and hope he catches up a little on the turn. Though, this one's really tough, becuase I'm thinking a few levels deep. If you push here, he has a hard time putting you on a Ace becuase, if you had it, why not just flat call and let him continue to bet into you. A push almost looks like a steal attempt from you, which would make him more likely to call with an underpair or the 5.
Hand 4:
Not enough info. Is BB calling all-in or does he have some money behind? (ie. Is there extra money to be won this hand?) Two outs to the pure nuts, 7 more to likely nuts, and the remaining straight cards to crack 2pairs and sets. Another 8 may give boats, so those may not be real outs. Cross figners and push the call button. (assumign the BB is all-in at this point)
Hand 5:
I know it's a passive table, but I don't like that you're in the hand with that. I'd have let it go. But, since you're in the hand, the flop hit you nice, but you have an MP playing showing some strength, I think. Are you ready to react to MP's all in call on the river? I'm so tempted to fold here. Top pair, second kicker and two player willing to play the hand. Seems like you're in a really marginal situation here. Fold.
Hand 6:
do the other opp's think you have the flush, not likely since you bet the flop. I'd be tempted to go for a check-raise after the flop. It shows strength and the reaction of the other players to that will get you more information on where they are in the hand. If you're calling $20 now, you're getting no info, so that's money better spent on the flop. After the turn you've given up the hand with your check, so I think you're committed to folding. You do have both covered so you could go push on the turn and hope UTG+1 gets out of the way.
In my (not so humble) opinion this isn't really deep stacked no limit. Deep stack, to me, is 250xBB+. That, I suppose, is merely a matter of semantics of course.
in one hand, Hero has $180, or 180 BB
So... it's no longer deepstack poker if you lose one decent-sized pot? Max buy-in at these tables (I believe) is 200 btw.
Did you just randomly select a #xBB to classify it "deepstack"?
Mark
But no, I did not pick '250xBB' out of thin air, I thought it was commonly accepted that deep stack poker begins in that grey area near 3x buy in. At that stage the preflop raise and flop bets represents such a small % of your stack that it's a whole new ball game, where deception and hand reading are of paramount importance. For example, if I show you AA and raise 10xBB promising to push any flop, there is certainly a point in our stack sizes where calling with any two is profitable. If you have 72, and I have another 50xBB behind clearly it is not profitable to call. If I have another 5000xBB then clearly it is. The point where a hand like 58s or even 78o can be profitably played against AA or KK is, in my opinion, deep stack poker.
From what I've read, it appears to start at around 200xBB, but these are a little short of that. I guess I meant it's deep for low-limit online (where the buy-in's are so small, and it's rare - at least in my experience - to encounter many people with more than 75BB).
But it sounds like you are recommending pushing 100BB frequently...
Now for the results:
Hand 1:
Felt like a bluff so I called.Â
MP showed :5h :5c
I win $320 pot (net $158).
Hand 2:
I flat called the raise.Â
Turn was the :8c , BB checked, I bet out just over 1/3 of the pot ($21). My bet might seem a bit small, but considering the stacks, I didn't want to scare anybody out (wasn't that worried about flush since I had 2 diamonds in defense, which might even be good). MP raised all-in for $90 total, BB called all-in for his last $21, and I obviously called them.Â
River was the :3c
BB showed :ad :5d
MP showed :jc :js .
MHIG and I win $255 pot (net $146).
Hand 3:
Push was obviously a mistake. However, everyone folds, so I win $131 pot (net $77).
Hand 4:
To me this was the most interesting hand. Jenn was watching me at the time, and we had a bit of a chat about this one, specifically that I called the turn bet.Â
River was the :ac and it went check-check.Â
BB showed :10c :2h
UTG+1 showed :7s :6s
I lose the $158 pot (net $-52).
Hand 5:
I folded and I was right about the rat.Â
River was :qd (could have been trouble for me)
BB showed :6h :5h
MP showed :jc :js for the flopped set
Pot was $48 (net $-17).
Hand 6:
Dumbest hand in here - way too weak on my part. I did fold (me :fish:)
River was :8d
UTG+1 had :qd :ts
CO showed :jh :9c
If I didn't fold I win