KK pre-flop at the WSOP

g2

Yesterday I kill a KK pre-flop topic, and today I start one. The universe is now balanced!

Anyway, here is a post from another poker forum. I would like to see how everybody on this forum (a better one) responds. By the way, I mean respond here, not on the inferior forum. And yes, g2 on the inferior forum is myself. So feel free to correct my post if you are better at math than I am.

/g2

wader

I would show one.

garryc

I could possibly fold KK pre-flop if I was 100% sure the other player had AA but since the only way I can put anyone on a hand is if they show me I'm calling everytime.

Seriously, whenever I play tournies I try hard NOT to get all my money in pre-flop I'd rather see the flop and work from there.

Garry

ChrisWinsor

I agree with you G2, but I wouldn't show him my aces... I don't want them to know they layed their hand down to the best hand... I want them to second guess themselves. I the other players at the table are quick to forget those hands, where as the player who folded will be thinking about it all day...

AcidJoe

On the first note: I'm Acidjoe on that forum too.

2nd I'm not sure.. At the WSOP I probably say good laydown I had red A's (or whatever) but not show. I don't need to give anyone more reads than they need. Now If I had 10 10 I might show to show them I'm capable of making some moves.

Big E

To show or not to show to me depends on how you've been playing or how you think the table might perceive you. Let's say you're either bluffing a lot, known to be a loose player, or perhaps the cards have just been hitting you and you've been in a lot of pots but rarely had to show down it might not be a bad idea to show the AA, otherwise I'd likely not show them.....

.....and that whole discussion is similar to my last home game when Beanie took my KK out with AA. I still stand by myself in saying that when your tournament life is on the line the odds don't matter as much. If I know 100% that I'm against AA and I have KK and calling and losing will end my tournament but folding will leave me in the game I don't think you can fault folding. Obviously you can never be 100% sure unless you see the cards. This is such a rare occurrence anyways, is it not? If you have the guy covered you're likely calling, if you're short stacked you're likely all-in pre-flop. In my case I chose to smooth call pre-flop and put a difficult decision on myself. That really, I think, was the bigger problem.  I should have pushed pre-flop avoiding a difficult decision.

beanie42

IF my read was such that I had to lay down the kings (meaning I'm positive they have AA), I would show them, since it's such a tough fold/read that it should earn you some respect/fear. However, your read has to be 100% - you show them and you're wrong, that player will walk all over you!

As for the AA, I wouldn't show them, even if they show the AA first. Make them question themselves, and wonder whether there read was right. No point giving free info.

JohnnieH

I can't imagine ever letting go of Kings. When I see those two in hand, I'm married to them until the flop. (Man flirting?)

Post flop, well that's another story.

Johnnie

SirWatts

This is a terrible fold. He should call even if he knows he has aces.

g2

SirWatts wrote:

This is a terrible fold. He should call even if he knows he has aces.

Thank you! That's what I said. And you were there... so you MUST know

/g2

SirWatts

Speaking of KK preflop here's a story I forgot to tell from the main event. On the very first hand:

Young Party Poker qualifier makes it 200 in EP. Another young guy (the tricky aggressive player from my hands) makes it 700 in MP. Folded to Party Poker who makes it 3000. Tricky aggressive player thinks for like 5 or 10 seconds at most and mucks kings face up. Party Poker said he had aces (and judging from how he played there's no way he was lying). It didn't take long for me to realize I didn't exactly have a great table draw.

compuease

Hope you don't think I'm hijacking since it's not about KK's quite but of someone almost folding AA preflop. I was playing in the CanAm series last fall at Seneca. Maybe 3-4 hands in at my table. Starting stacks of 5000 as I recall, UTG calls, EP guy (who was down to about 3K after a bad beat on previous hand goes all in, MP all-in over top for his full 5K, think it was button goes into the tank, actually gets up, spins around a couple of times, mutters something about, how can I fold, sat down again and spent at least 2 minutes with his head in his hands before finally calling. I was sure he had K's.... Now the funny part, he actually had AA's and said he was worried about one of them out drawing him. LOL, actually it turned out great for him, BOTH the EP and MP guys turned over pocket QQ's..... This time the AA's held up... Just though it was funny to watch play out.

BlondeFish

Assuming the blinds are at 100/200+0 and nobody else has limped in, the total pot is 14,400. Azaria only has to call 2,900, giving him pot odds of 4.97 to 1 or 16.8%. The probability of KK "sucking out" against AA is approximately 19% (4.3 to 1). So it is +EV to call even in the unrealistic case that you are 100.0% sure that your opponent has aces.
EV = 0.19 * 14,400 + 0.81 * (-2,900) = +387.

In a cash game, it's a no-brainer call. At tournaments like the WSOP, the probability of you making it to the money with only 2,900 chips is close to zero, while the probability is at least five times better with 17,300 chips. If this situation happens 100 times, 81 times you will lose your measly 2,900 chips and bust out of the tournament early, but the other 19 times, you will have doubled up to 17,300 chips and have a much better chance of surviving to the money.

In the non-theoretical world where there is far less than 100% certainty than your opponent has aces, it is an easy call. There is at least a 10% chance that even a very tight player at the WSOP is bluffing with a worse hand.

As for Giordano showing the AA , it is better not to give any free information. There are many observant players at the WSOP who can remember or hear later about how he played AA. The less information you give away, the better.

'

g2 wrote:

So feel free to correct my post if you are better at math than I am.

TexLexus

Folding kings preflop is absurd.

actyper

At my table, after some preflop action, one guy said to the other "I'll give you $1 if you show me your aces". The other guy agreed, so he mucked his KK faceup. Other guy flipped over his AA.

I think I would need at least $100 before I would show.

ChrisWinsor

I was thinking about this, and i take it back. I would fold if the guy showed me aces before i made my decision, even with those pot odds. The blinds were small enough that i wasn't in an all in or fold situation. And you can't always follow pot odds in tournaments.

Pot odds always work in cash games, but not always in tournaments. You don't get a direct return in tournaments making pot odd calls. Because making that specific call isnt the hand that necessarily the hand that puts you in the money. Plus it's the main event you dont wanna bust out when you're not in the money.

DataMn

I think that one thing that people are missing in their analysis of this hand is the motivation
of the player for being in the tournament.

Hank Azaria, for those few of you who probably don't know, is the voice of many of
the characters on the Simpsons (Apu amongst others). He plays in the regular "Hollywood
Home Games", but probably was not expecting to win the 12 million dollars.

My read on the tale is that Azaria figured his opponent for pocket Aces and folded his
kings for 2 reasons.

1) It would be a move that would impress some people, and

2) He would be able to stay in the tournament and enjoy the atmosphere longer.

It was the wrong decision from an EV point in a cash game, but in a tournament
it all depends on how much value you put on staying in the tournament vs busting out.

Al

Dave Scharf

I show him my aces.

Why?

Azaria makes a very tough fold. I would show him (or anyone) the aces out of respect. A tip of my hat, as it were.

beanie42

Dave Scharf wrote:

Azaria makes a very tough fold. I would show him (or anyone) the aces out of respect. A tip of my hat, as it were.

Very classy, but not sure if this is very smart. The self-doubt created by an unconfirmed big fold can be a huge advantage, and this isn't just a friendly home game - this is for millions of $$$. I remember Annie Duke talking about her laydown against Raymer (WSOP TOC a few years ago), and how much more confident she felt after he told her he had KK (and she made a good fold). However, Raymer didn't tell her until after he was out (and it wouldn't hurt him). I might tell the player after the tourney or when I bust out, but not while I'm still playing with them.

Meistro

I would show him because Hank Azaria is the man; he does awesome work on the simpsons. His fold is pretty brutal because of the pot odds etc already been hashed over. Also, three betting pf with kings is often the wrong move as flat calling the raise allows you to stack QQ or JJ more effectively.

I've never folded KK preflop, but I've folded QQ in spots where I would fold KK if I had it. I can never make this fold online but there's a ton of live players who won't reraise without AK QQ+ and won't three bet without aces or kings. You play with a guy for 6 hours and watch him raise, call and never reraise the entire time and he reraises a tight player and you don't put him on jacks, if you know what I mean. There are definitely spots at the 5/10 or 10/25 at fallsview I could get away from kings.