Preflop, you RAISE and get called. Flop comes, and Caller Open Bets. Why?

CurlingZone

Hey, been a while since I've posted here.

I see this happen from time to time and am curious what people think? I play a lot of Limit Ring, and NL Tournies.

I've seen a whole mix of things, though generally, it seems to mean a player doesn't have the nuts, or wouldn't you check raise to get some money in the pot, with the continuation bet expected to follow?

Seems to be done more with draws, ie Flush, straight, and they're hoping to make the original raiser just fold.

Thoughts?

Big E

Interesting question, I play almost strictly limit poker online and I have had this done to me as well as witnessed it done many times and I'd have to say it's likely an attempt on a ragged flop to steal the pot from the PF raiser if you think they have not hit...I guess it could be a draw trying to build the pot...although I'm not sure why you'd need to lead out...the PF raiser is pretty much going to make a continuation bet on any flop?

I find if I want to try and steal the pot a check raise makes the person think more then leading out...usually the PF raiser will call the flop bet anyways thinking it's a steal attempt while the check-raise usually indicates strength?

I'd like to see some comments on the thought process for this move?

beanie42

I play mainly NL, and usually a cheap lead-out is an attempt at a cheap draw. They think that if they bet, you may call rather than raise, so they attempt to give themselves favorable odds, and is actually a good strategy against less savvy opponents (I've done it myself). As an example, last night I had AsTs in LP with blinds at 15/30 and raised to 125, 2 callers. Flop comes down K-high with 2 hearts, totally missing me. EP caller bets 60 into the 400 pot, and other caller folds. I raised the EP another 400 (even though I had just A-high) and he folded. However, decent players may also try the cheap lead-out for cheap draws against bad players, but trap another decent player by leading out with a cheap bet when they have a monster. You need to learn (quickly) whether the player is tricky or not.

AcidJoe

I'll lead out. Normal situation for me. CO raises into the blinds flat call (I'm Big or Small). Any donkish flop like 3 4 7 rainbow I'll lead out, if he's playing high cards it's usually a fold. Normally when I call a raise I want position on the PFR after the flop as that can make decisions easier.

Meistro

Assuming limit hold'em a 'donk bet' as this is popularly called can mean many things depending on the player. If the preflop raiser is to my right, that is there are alot of players to act between us, I will lead with monsters / big draws hoping to get alot of money in the pot. If he is to my left I will c/r to get alot of money in. If it's heads up I will lead and c/r with a wide variety of hands.

moose

If I flop top pair I'm going to bet out all the time.  I need to know what my opponent has on me.  If I get called, generally he missed and has overcards to the board.  If I get raised, now I am concerned about the overpair and I may fold depending on how much I respect my opponent.  If a different player suddenly raises me, now I start thinking sets and 2 pr.  I never get fancy with top pair, and also quite often sets as well.  I just hammer away and let donks call me down.  Never trust your opponent to bet.  You might never get that c/r in, and give everyone else a free card to see the turn.  

About the only time I will go for a c/r is if I am the opener on the flop and the last person to act is the pf raiser.  Then I am hoping everyone checks to the raiser, he bets and I can make it 2 bets cold to all the players in between.  I will do this even with middle pr, if I think he is cont. betting.

As for people betting out on draws for straights and flushes, that is because if you are going to call a bet, you should bet first.  Be the bettor not the caller.  Aggression is everything in limit.



And as a side note, technically the only way your situation could happen, was if the caller was in the blinds.  Not sure if you intended to discuss BSB play here or not, which is entirely different.  AcidJoe was talking about some aspects of BSB play in his response.

CurlingZone

Moose, I see you point in a pot where there's multiple players. There's no point making a continuation bet in a pot with 4+ players if its checked to you and you missed. I am mainly referring to one or two players, where the continuation bet is pretty much a guarantee.

This does happen a lot to the blind, though can still happen where the blinds fold and an early limper calls.

doctorapple

hey curlingzone.

I'm glad you posted this one, cuz my lazy ass wouldn't do it.
I know we've talked about this one before, so let me ask you the same
question but with a more detailed set of variables.
$10 - 3 table NL SNG, $1500 chips, 10/20 blinds
5 hands into the game to see in EP- AKo - preflop raise to $80
1 caller (hasn't played a hand yet) in the big blind. pot = $170.
flop hits 2c 6s 10h
Caller fires out $130.

then you . . .

ScoobyD

Assuming limit hold'em a 'donk bet' as this is popularly called can mean many things depending on the player.

Agreed. Typically, I'll see a flop donk as likely being one of 2 hands (from a typical player).

1) A semi-strong hand that that player is unsure of. Top pair questionable kicker, sometimes 2nd pair A kicker (if he's more aggressive). Often this is a feeler bet to see if the raiser has an overpair, TP-bigger kicker, or or better.
2) A semi-bluff with a flush or straight draw (looking to build the pot, and hoping for an occaisional fold from the raiser).

MOST players typically won't lead out with a genuine monster like a set They'll tend to slowplay (on safer boards) hoping to get in 2 turn bets, or possibly CR on scary boards.

Because most players frequently are donking with either semi strong or semi bluffing hands, a lot of aggressive players will see the donk bet as weakness and either raise for value, a free card, semi bluff etc (knowing they're unlikely to face a 3 bet). As such, a lot of times, I like to just donk out with flopped sets, 2 pair, straights, etc. into the pf raiser, knowing I'm likely to get raised a lot, allowing me to 3 bet (assuming the raiser was aggressive).

ChrisWinsor

Listen to Doyle. You open raise into the raiser when you hit your set in certain sitatuations. A 9 3 flop and you're holding 33 and you called a raise. You put him on the Ace, you raise into him, he reraises then you go all in. If you check raise he get's suspicious and might throw his ace away.

Otto_Troy

I like this post, because I make this play sometimes and it is curious to know what people think about it. I think it depends on lot on the game. As has been mentioned a lot, in cash games it is often a way to see the next card at your price. I use this a lot only in the late rounds of a multi-table tournament in an attempt to steal pots. There are a lot of times that people are raising to steal blinds or both of you will just miss the flop. If I have missed completely, I will take my stab at winning a pot I have no business winning by betting half the pot. It works a lot and if they raise I simply fold. I only due this at the later rounds of multi table tournaments against players with average stacks. The pots are so significant that most players will fold a hand like A-J, if they haven't connected rather than risk a raise. Just my opinion.

wader

CurlingZone wrote:

Hey, been a while since I've posted here.

I see this happen from time to time and am curious what people think?    I play a lot of Limit Ring, and NL Tournies.   

I've seen a whole mix of things, though generally, it seems to mean a player doesn't have the nuts, or wouldn't you check raise to get some money in the pot, with the continuation bet expected to follow?

Seems to be done more with draws, ie Flush, straight, and they're hoping to make the original raiser just fold.

Thoughts?

Usually on a draw or second pair

Fusion

ChrisWinsor wrote:

Listen to Doyle. You open raise into the raiser when you hit your set in certain sitatuations. A 9 3 flop and you're holding 33 and you called a raise. You put him on the Ace, you raise into him, he reraises then you go all in. If you check raise he get's suspicious and might throw his ace away.

Yup, the Check raise will shut down any half decent player so you should lead out if you hit and hope he has part of the flop. Also to return more to the original question, aggressive blind defenders will often call the raise so that they bet the flop hoping you missed - which most often you will - and therefore get you to lay down your supposed steal.