monkey in the middle!
20/40 BCC game with a soft lineup.Â
Loose/Weak/Passive player limps in EP, Folded to me in MP with KJ diamonds and I raise. Lose player who calls 3 cold with suited trash calls on the button (he really respects my raises though and will fold most of his marginal hands to my raises). SB calls and BB folds. Four of us see the flop with 4.5BB in the pot.
Flop is Kc Qs 7d.
Checked to me and I bet. Button calls, SB folds and EP calls. 6BB in the pot.
Turn is Th.
EP bets. and I ....??
Cheers
Magi
Loose/Weak/Passive player limps in EP, Folded to me in MP with KJ diamonds and I raise. Lose player who calls 3 cold with suited trash calls on the button (he really respects my raises though and will fold most of his marginal hands to my raises). SB calls and BB folds. Four of us see the flop with 4.5BB in the pot.
Flop is Kc Qs 7d.
Checked to me and I bet. Button calls, SB folds and EP calls. 6BB in the pot.
Turn is Th.
EP bets. and I ....??
Cheers
Magi
Comments
The call is okay, but I like strength here. I'd raise it. In my gut I'm feeling a suited KT in ep but I want him to bet it.
Cheers
Magi
Nyquiz
journeyman
Call. Fold if the button raises, and fold on the river UI.
This is where I like to think back and reflect on other hands that a weak passive player might have played the same way.
The T represents two main catagories that beat your hand, a straight (j9 is def in this players range), QT, KT, T7 all within range. Hate a raise in this position because the button might wake up with his gutter ball or your passive player might have the nuts and you find a 3-bet here. I think its safe to say that from a weak/passive you are beat here more often than not.
Moneyline
old hand
I think there are 2 reasons to raise here. The first is for value. There are a lot of hands your opponenet could have here. Yes, your opponent may have something like 77, but he also may have something like QJ, or KXs. I think you are best enough here to make raising a +EV move, and even if you aren't best you have a good number of outs that will enable you to occasionally draw out those times that you are behind. The second reason is that you will most likely drive out the player behind you, which could give you the benefit of cleaning up your jack outs.
Just my opinion...
freewheeler
member
Normally I'd raise here with TP + OESD, but given your read on EP I think calling may be better. Weak passive players don't bet into aggression without a big hand, but there's no way we can fold here. If Button has Ax he will probably give up anyway getting only 8/1, so no need to raise him out.
trentk268
member
I think the weak player in front is on KQ, QT, KT, or J9. I think he's getting out with T9 or below if he respects your raises. I think loose player on end is on a draw, as pointed out elsewhere on this thread.
You're not holding all that strong a kicker and the fact that a weak passive player has already called a raise and a bet indicates that he's holding a strong hand. You're on a OESD and have top pair, but I think you need to call here and get out on the river if you don't improve.
Post Extras:Â Â Â Â Â Â
magithighs
member
Mostly these weak/loose/passive players will c/r with a straight(80%) and/or a set (30%). So, I'm fairly confident the donker has two pair. I know I'm calling because of my draw and pot odds which are 8 to 1 on a call with my button friend and 4 to 1 on a raise and losing the button friend. So, it's close. I can likely double my pot equity by losing the button, but I really hate a three bet from him -- I'm 90% confident I'm not seeing a three bet from the donker.
So, what do I do. I call the button comes along. The River is a Q pairing the board and the donker has the smelly board look -- like the board just farted in his face. So, now I know his three pair is no good. He checks the button bets and he calls. I....?
Nyquiz
journeyman
This is one of those situations where I like a bet/fold line. Turn donk has KT or something like it, button could very well have a Q here. I'm not sure what range you put the button on but I think i have to call just because I know I have the SB beat.
bakku
bustobusto
Quote:
Mostly these weak/loose/passive players will c/r with a straight(80%) and/or a set (30%). So, I'm fairly confident the donker has two pair. I know I'm calling because of my draw and pot odds which are 8 to 1 on a call with my button friend and 4 to 1 on a raise and losing the button friend. So, it's close. I can likely double my pot equity by losing the button, but I really hate a three bet from him -- I'm 90% confident I'm not seeing a three bet from the donker.
So, what do I do. I call the button comes along. The River is a Q pairing the board and the donker has the smelly board look -- like the board just farted in his face. So, now I know his three pair is no good. He checks the button bets and he calls. I....?
if you believe you have EP beat you have to bet the river
Post Extras:Â Â Â Â Â Â
magithighs
member
This is one of the hands I butchered and it shows on the river based on your comments and my read.
I knew I had EP beat, but was real concerned about the button. I hadn't watched him make the calls that much and hence didn't have a good read on him. When I glanced over at the river, it looked like he hit but I wasn't sure -- so I made the call. Yuck.
EP turns over KT, as suspected, and button turns over AQ taking the pot.
Not being results oriented, I think the turn and river is what separates the good players from the really good players. I spent two bets in total -- I could have tossed em both in at the turn and given myself double the pot equity. If EP makes it three I can still make a crying call and draw out on his J9.
As tags we need to find places where it looks like we're spewing bets when in fact we're still getting proper odds. This gives us action in future hands and also gives us the best chance to win the current hand.
So, I have to aggree with the folks who suggested to raise the turn.
Also have to agree with betting the river given my line. The button was a smart player and wouldn't kill his action from the EP player and wouldn't risk a re-raise from me possibly holding KQ. Much better than me check/calling (total yuck).
Cheers
Magi
Post Extras:Â Â Â Â Â Â
In hindsight, getting rid of the AQ would clean up a lot of outs. Conversely, if an A hits the river, you probably get a crying call from button that way. I still think this one's close based on your passive read of EP (I think as someone else said, 2 pair is the most likely donking hand, since straights and sets tend to CR here). Against 2 pair you've got 10 outs to improve. Against passives, you "probably" don't face a 3 bet from 2 pair here... Seems tempting to raise turn for a free showdown UI (and betting if you improve).
Ah...I'm a moron, I reread the post. I couldn't understand people advocating bet/fold the turn. I assume they meant the river...