Take the easy or hard route?
I have some aquaintances that like to play poker. I usually end up winning a fair bit of them, but in all reality don't like playing against them. Most would qualify as party poker play money donks. You usually have to strictly play cards because they would be playing anything (including a gutshot straight to an all in ). They have no clue as to how much they can raise, and will fight you when they re-raise your $4 raise to $6 (which should be $8 for a min raise).
While I make good coin playing them I'd actually rather play poker against skilled opponents since it
a) allows you to play poker rather than just your cards
b) they know the rules and there isn't any arguements of stupid stuff (like the raise I mentioned earlier).
c) it is just far more enjoyable.
I realize we were all new at this at some point, and since we are here I believe we actually have some intelligence for actually learning the game, the rules, etc. These guys don't want to learn anything and like I said will fight you when you actually say something back after you say need to raise at least $4, which is usually the big blind is $2 that's all I need to re raise you back.
I try and limit my donkey sessions to one per week because mentally I can't handle these guys, but I make good coin off them which is why I play. I would actually love to play these guys in a casino/club since it would be the dealer fighting with these guys and not me.
When GTA made his post about not playing on line anymore because he didn't need the money that bad to play those guys I questioned it. Now I'm more than understanding. I assumed (wrongly) that anyone who would drop a few hundred in a few hours playing cards would actually want to improve and understand the game.
While I could play most of these guys every night I just don't have the patience for it. I can barely tolerate the one night I do play them.
Suggestions?
While I make good coin playing them I'd actually rather play poker against skilled opponents since it
a) allows you to play poker rather than just your cards
b) they know the rules and there isn't any arguements of stupid stuff (like the raise I mentioned earlier).
c) it is just far more enjoyable.
I realize we were all new at this at some point, and since we are here I believe we actually have some intelligence for actually learning the game, the rules, etc. These guys don't want to learn anything and like I said will fight you when you actually say something back after you say need to raise at least $4, which is usually the big blind is $2 that's all I need to re raise you back.
I try and limit my donkey sessions to one per week because mentally I can't handle these guys, but I make good coin off them which is why I play. I would actually love to play these guys in a casino/club since it would be the dealer fighting with these guys and not me.
When GTA made his post about not playing on line anymore because he didn't need the money that bad to play those guys I questioned it. Now I'm more than understanding. I assumed (wrongly) that anyone who would drop a few hundred in a few hours playing cards would actually want to improve and understand the game.
While I could play most of these guys every night I just don't have the patience for it. I can barely tolerate the one night I do play them.
Suggestions?
Comments
Bonus: consulting the sheet made for a pretty good tell.
Play your friends and take their money, and realize that it's a cash cow as your doing it. Â If they don't want to improve, they won't, no matter what you try to tell them.
Play more skilled games for the enjoyment of it, and to test your skills against equal or better players. Â This will provide you more satisfaction and competition in the long run, and that will make you a better player.
I find that playing against Donks has the potential to increase your own Donkeyness so you have to be careful. On the other hand if they are content to not really learn the game and constantly dump money to you then continue taking it. Then use that money to play other games with more experienced players. Plus if they are not going to lose it to you then they are going to lose it to some one else and don't you think you could use their money better then some other guy?
Me personally I love to play against less experience players (sure it hurts when they catch their one outers but still); I mean why risk my money against good people who know how to check/raise, and bluff?
"It's immoral to let a sucker keep his money." - Canada Bill Jones
This is so true and the only real downfall here. Take the cash. And seriously just let them do what they want.
I played a guy for 3 years who used to call his had...three pair, or straight with Ace kicker. Dead money, stupid fights, but I'd take 300-600 bucks for 5 hours of babysitting.
Chris is 100% correct about the donkiness I did it the other day for all the right reasons, (a more experienced player may have folded) simply because I knew he had 2 overs, and I did have a backdoor flush with a gutshot plus both my cards were live. I basically should have folded because even if I was wrong I was losing and he'd probably have called with anything. Like I said in my original post
PLAY YOUR CARDS.
I know they give their money to others on the nights I won't play so if I didn't take someone is always there to do that.
I know most of your are saying "you play with 6 ATM machines and your complaining?"
I got the riverstars suck out of all time against me last night 3 handed. I had AA vs A 10 s vs 10 10 and got all my money in preflop. With a flop of K 10 2 rainbow it was all over for my AA. With blinds of 1/2 and I was dealer, I bet $10, Mr A10 calls, TT re raises 30, I push in the $35 I've got in front of me, AT comes over with an all in of $45 and TT calls (I think he had $46 in front but I'm not sure).
Also, putting up with crap is going to happen in all games. You need to get used to it. The better players may know the rules of the game, but also know how to get under your skin. Once you take a bad beat you become "chum" and the skarks start needling you. Keeping a strong mind and keeping the bad players happy is a huge skill. The better you learn that the more you will make as you move up in limits. So, keep your friends happy, and take their money. Way easier to play 150 bowlers.
Cheers
Magi
OMG I can't let that happen.
As a bowler I probably appreciate that probably better than most. I actually never thought that keeping bad players happy as a skill set. I guess that's one more skill I need to work on. Bad beats don't normally turn me into chum but that's a very valid point. I've read your post at least 5 times now Lou and as always you've made a very concise, accurate post.
PS on the 4th reading I noticed that you talked about skarks. I can't believe it took that long to notice LOL.
Thanks.
When the poker boom started, and I started to seriously take an interest in the game, it was easy to see which of my friends were also willing to learn. So, like the earlier post said, I printed out rules that were frequently abused, and, more importantly, the reasons for the rules, and most of the players eventually caught up. The ones who didn't, or refused to at least try to improve his game, and in turn, our game, eventually stopped getting invites.
Now I host my weekly game, and I am fairly proud of the quality of it. Although it has become much much harder to win consistently, I do believe that by always playing hard competition, my own play improves as well. So, if it's about the money, keep playing it, or occasionally play it. But if you love a great poker game, that tests you, and sends you home analyzing your plays and determining possible leaks and how to plug them, maybe you should find a weekly game with some more serious play.
Either way, hope it's profitable AND fun!
sstar
Let's be honest for a second.
a) your making money, who cares...
b) i agree with Greg's comment. I don't believe your game is at any level to "look down" on others play. You do sound like a guy who's "too good to play with beginners".
c) lastly, I will always play any hand against you. I may catch, your "preflop" superior hand may win, but, to be honest, there is always luck involved. Enjoy the "free money".
d) look at lou's post referring to keeping what he considers keeping the donks happy. I call Lou with rag, rag and win. He would be the first to come over to me the next time I see him and have a chuckle about it....(thinking/hoping I'd play the same way against him in the future... mind you, i'm thinking the same thing hoping he thinks that..) Lou is a poker player who wants to make money.
I think we get along pretty good, but, don't make it sound like your game is above most others.Â
ME
One I don't think I"m too good to play with beginners. My original post said I'd love to play these guys in a casino/club rather than a home game or in a bar. In a more controlled environment it would be better.
I believe my game is reasonable, but from watching Lou at westside I realize where it needs to go. I read his post a multitude of times and as I said before I didn't think keeping donks happy as a skill. His post was a great post and really got me thinking.Â
And finally I know you will play any hand against me or anyone else for that matter. To believe luck isn't involved in poker is completely wrong. Our two styles are different as I try to minimize luck for the most part, and you more than embrace luck. I realize to win a tournament you HAVE to get lucky at the right times to build a stack and survive.
For the most part I appreciate what everyone has said as it has got me thinking about different ideas I hadn't given much thought to. I now have a different perspective as to why I should play or not play these games. Ultimately it comes down to a balance of profitability/enjoyment and what ratio you put on these.Â
I used to find it very hard to play against them, I had gotten used to playing online where there are fish, but there are also a lot of solid players grinding it out in the low limits I play.
I think I actually posted on here about it at one point.
Basically similar to what Lou said I took at as a challenge - how do I a) Work on my reading abilities and b) try the Negreanu approach - talk, have fun and most of all keep the fish happy and coming back
For me, it has been okay so far, every once and a while I feel some donkiness creep into my game, but I think I have also gotten better at live read and being more social (hopefully masking my own tells - I have bad bad HAR syndrome) at the table
I love the line from Finding Nemo and I always use it "Fish are friends not food". One of my neighbours asked me if I get upset when players don't know what they're doing win. I said "are you kidding me.....these are my customers and I treat them well". What do Casino's call their customers .. (well sometimes whales) but mostly VIP, Winner's Circle and they comp. their winners.  Wouldn't that be cool.....you loose to a two outer and then go over and shake the guys hand and buy him a beer -- I'm not there yet, but I'd love to be in the comp. mindset.
I always learn from everyone -- even the players making the most mistakes will make a good play now and then. So, if I'm busy laughing at their bad play, or upset at their errors, I'll miss the good play and the opportunity to learn. I'm not just saying this -- I learned a ton from my tournaments and watching so called bad players, and from playing some of the free single table tournaments we had going for the car washes.
That's just how I think and I wouldn't expect others to do the same. Just thought I'd share it.
Cheers
Magi
This reminds me of something a friend of mine said after getting busted out by a donk in a SnG he said "I forgot that even a donk picks up a monster every once and a while."
Before that the Donk kept raising his bets with hands like Q-10 and K-10 when he would have A-Q or A-K. The hand he got busted on was the donk had A-K and he had A-J, he was short stack bet, the donk raised him, he went all-in and the donk called.
Back to the original post.....when referring to the bet or $4 re-raise to $6 what is the limit/game being played because if it is 1/2 NL and one player make it $4 re-raising to $6 is a legal raise.
Now that's an interesting approach that I can relate to. Â I perfectly understand that analogy much better than most I've heard. Â Why berate or make light of your best paying customers when a little bit of customer support and encouragement will provide you with a much better long term arrangement with them. Â Excellent thought Magi!
I guess the real concept here is to analyze best how to apply what you've said in your posts to my situation. Thanks for sharing your insights.
But now, this is deep.. lol
I come to play to have fun. If I win, I win. If I lose, well, I hopefully had fun doing it. I enjoy the company, the good hands, the bad beats, etc.
Nothing personal to anyone on this thread.
ME
:fish: :fish: DON'T :fish: TAP :fish: THE :fish: AQUARIUM :fish: :fish:
Hey Joe -
Invite me down to the Bradford Fishtank and I'll see if you can drop a line in up here at the Gilford Fishbowl !!
(PS- you playing in the RC2, or maybe putting in your own team?)
my buddy told me about this post and I couldn't wait to reply.
I play in a similar situation, but I play every day at work through a half hour lunch
and 2 - 15 min breaks, 4 handed NL hold'em exclusively. The stakes are small - $5 games - winner takes.
At any rate, this is a game I can beat, and any time I can come out $15 - $35 ahead per
week while playing a game I enjoy, I'll take it. It's not big $$ but it pays for my Timmy's
addiction in the morning and a nice 12 of Keith's on Fridays. One thing I have never felt is guilty.
(especially when you find out your opponents called 3 raises just for the pleasure of trying and bust you with J-4off)
None of my opponents play online, none of them have picked up a poker book, none of them
has posted a hand to an odds calculator to see how strong/week a particular hand was.
I look at what I take money wise from these games as a return for my efforts in trying to become a better player.
It's not the highest level of poker I should be playing at the moment, but it's an available live game.
And with that, there's plenty of positive things to be taken from these games, aside from $.
One thing that has developed for me is watching betting patterns, body language, tendencies etc. . .
After reading Caro's book, I couldn't help but laugh at the MANY things that were happening right in
front of me that I hadn't known how to pinpoint prior. There is always something to take from any game.
I am not at a level where I am (or can) playing pro's or semi-pros for that matter, where alot of this info may not apply.
But I'm surrounded by fellow amateurs, who let their guard down, or don't pay attention to patterns etc.
One thing shared by all the players mentioned is that they all want to win, it's just that they don't
give themselves the time & knowledge to improve. So, with this blown out rambling here, I feel
you should continue with these games you're in. Yeah, put up with the odd squabble, but maybe try playing the
players instead of the cards, and see what you come up with. I think that the mentioned players we're playing against
on a frequent basis here are the majority of poker players live or online, so it may have more value than you think.
doc.
His closing remarks are great:
Your ego puts you on tilt. Calling people donkeys sets your ego up for a beating. Challenging "donkeys" to heads-up freeze-outs when you're on tilt and your ego is bruised sets you up to dump your bankroll. Don't indulge your ego. Donkeys don't exist. Make good decisions and focus on self-improvement. Do that, and you can watch all the drawing donkeys disappear forever.