Pre-flop KK - What would you do?
in Poker Games
I had a home game this past weekend and I have been questioning my play on this hand since then. I firmly believe I played it incorrectly. Here is the situation.
Final table of 10 player left. I don't feel short stacked but I am below minimum in chips with 3100 I think I was currently in 6th or 7th in chips. The blinds, I believe, just went up to 150/300 (20 min levels). I'm UTG+1, UTG goes all-in for 1500 and I look down to see KK. I call, my thinking here was that UTG could be all-in with a wide range of hands being short stacked. I know I have a very strong hand and I was hoping another caller would come along or perhaps a late re-raiser that I could come over top to triple up on and put myself in a good position to challenge for the win. The player to my left folded then the next player to act asked me for a chip count. I went to count my chips and the player immediately made the comment 'It doesn't really matter I'm all-in'. It was folded around to me and he had me easily covered, I have 1600 left in front of me.
Let me post my thought process on the re-raisers move.
I didn't believe he was worried about the UTG all-in, nor was I for that matter. I also know my table image with the group I play with, I believe I'm viewed as a tight, perhaps tight-weak player...I know I can be pushed/bluffed off some pots so I'm confident he knows I have a solid starting hand. My thought on the re-raiser tho is that he is a very solid player who will switch up his game and take advantage of any weakness he senses....I believe he could re-raise all-in with any mid-high pair or AK-A9, perhaps even but unlikely KQs but the comment he made and with the quickness he made it 'It doesn't really matter, I'm all-in' kept sending off alarms in my brain....I truly and firmly believed he had AA.
If I dump KK I still have 1600 in chips, with blinds of 150/300 I would be short stacked and looking to push again soon but not entirely desperate....given my read what is your play?
Final table of 10 player left. I don't feel short stacked but I am below minimum in chips with 3100 I think I was currently in 6th or 7th in chips. The blinds, I believe, just went up to 150/300 (20 min levels). I'm UTG+1, UTG goes all-in for 1500 and I look down to see KK. I call, my thinking here was that UTG could be all-in with a wide range of hands being short stacked. I know I have a very strong hand and I was hoping another caller would come along or perhaps a late re-raiser that I could come over top to triple up on and put myself in a good position to challenge for the win. The player to my left folded then the next player to act asked me for a chip count. I went to count my chips and the player immediately made the comment 'It doesn't really matter I'm all-in'. It was folded around to me and he had me easily covered, I have 1600 left in front of me.
Let me post my thought process on the re-raisers move.
I didn't believe he was worried about the UTG all-in, nor was I for that matter. I also know my table image with the group I play with, I believe I'm viewed as a tight, perhaps tight-weak player...I know I can be pushed/bluffed off some pots so I'm confident he knows I have a solid starting hand. My thought on the re-raiser tho is that he is a very solid player who will switch up his game and take advantage of any weakness he senses....I believe he could re-raise all-in with any mid-high pair or AK-A9, perhaps even but unlikely KQs but the comment he made and with the quickness he made it 'It doesn't really matter, I'm all-in' kept sending off alarms in my brain....I truly and firmly believed he had AA.
If I dump KK I still have 1600 in chips, with blinds of 150/300 I would be short stacked and looking to push again soon but not entirely desperate....given my read what is your play?
Comments
stp
I would fold only if I was 100% sure he had the Aces and I would never be 100% sure.
I did put him on a range of hands at first, to give you some more info the player in question was Beanie that's why I included A9 in that range
I don't think I'm at the level yet where I can pick up tells from anyone unless they are pretty blatant although I do try to think of the hand from their point of view using the image that I have for them and sometimes I get a 'feeling' but this time it was just the way that when I reached for my chips to count them that he said don't bother I'm all in. Whether that was a read or more so a thought process in the sense that to me there's only one hand in hold'em in that situation that I would push all-in over top regardless of stacks...and that's AA.
I'll post what happened shortly but thanks to all for the comments so far.
/g2
You are only loosing to 1 hand.
Don't worry about the monsters under the bed....
Hobbes
OK... now I am dying to know what happened. My prediction: he showed A9 and flopped trip 9s to keep his 999 streak alive.
/g2
I flat called with the intention of pushing on the flop or if there was a re-raiser either calling if they had me covered or going over top if not. I was hoping that my flat call would induce some more callers or an all-in. Most of the time I'll push this as well but I intentionally did not want to on this play, however when Beanie pushed and made that comment I second guessed myself and put him on AA...this for me made a tough decision I should not have had to make. Everyone seems to be on the same page except me....perhaps it's because if Trevor shows AA and I am out of the tournament I think I can fold my KK in this situation but regardless I felt I could fold KK and hope for another chance to push and I still feel that way today.
However, there is beer at these damned games so as my brain said 'you're against AA, fold face up and hope for another hand soon! My mouth said 'I call'
UTG flipped over :qd :qs
I flipped over my :kd :kc
and Trevor flipped over:Â :ah :as
not sure about the actual suits, it made no difference an A high flop and Jenn and I were out.
I know I would have been crippled but I still believe if there is any time you can fold KingKong this may be the one and only time. With 1600 left, one or two double ups and I'm back in the game KK against AA and you're usually on the side lines.
p.s. I thought this kind of shit only happened online?
Your home game is rigged!
LOL, it is...but next time I'm gonna set the whole deck, not just my hand...I thought it'd be too obvious if I gave myself AA, lesson learned!
If it was truly rigged, then E would have given himself the Aces, or had his King suck out.
I believe the flop was A6x, and the turn was 6, giving Trevor his full house.
Eric, I'll say it again, I think you should have pushed instead of cold calling. You left yourself vulnerable to someone calling with Ace- Rag suited or some other marginal hand.
Thanks again for a fun night, and the swanky Party Poker hat.
Johnnie
Your home game is not rigged (very well)!
It was actually ATx, which gave them both runner-runner outs for the straight, and another T on the turn for the full house.
Totally agree. I would have made the same play with AK or KK (and possibly QQ) considering you only called, and I would have flat-called with a few others. Pushing would have been much better than calling, although it wouldn't have changed the outcome.
he-he, I don't do much very well.....except eat?
Thanks for the opinions guys, with Trevor coming over the top I think my point of view was from the 'I can hopefully hang on and move up a few spots' school of thought. I realize I was committed and pretty much had odds and the 'play to win' school of thought says push but man, it would have been one helluva fold!!!
After bubbling in the second SNG I realize now that I have never won anything at my own home.....hmmmm this hosting stuff is -EV!!!
Seriously, if you don't go broke with KK vs. AA on a micro stack, you're not playing it properly. Not to mention the fact you almost have the right price to call even if the guy has aces anyways.
As far as whether to flat call with KK to induce action or isolate by pushing...that's another discussion. May be dependent somewhat on payout structure as flat calling will likely be higher variance, but potentially more rewarding (chance to triple up). On the bubble, you'd obviously like to reduce variance and push out hands like AJ-AQ from calling. If you're quite a ways from the money, then maybe you want to take the higher risk/higher reward scenario... In general, I'd just push, since I don't really want unpleasant situations post flop when the flop comes Axx and I'm basically committed to the pot.
Sorry, it was not meant to waste anyones time, we had a discussion on this at the time and the group suggested I post it for comments.
This is the comment I disagree with (as it relates to this one particular hand only), first of all I don't think I had a micro stack in this situation, second of all, whether or not I got lucky on my read, most likely, or made a good read, doubtfull, I put him on AA so let's say for argument sake we played the cards face up, would you put your tournament life on almost having the right price to call. I prefer getting all my money in while ahead or at least when actually having the odds. My point of argument was that if you could somehow be 100% sure he held AA I think you could fold in this particular scenario and hope to catch another hand. As discussed here the majority thinks otherwise and I respect that and understand why, so I think the discussion is over. However I think I've realized why this hand is staying in my mind, it's the fact that I made the right read, I calculated what I thought to be the right course of action at the time and then went against my own decision and called...I think that is the real reason I was not letting go of this, right or wrong had I listened to myself I would not have went out of the tournament that hand....I very well could have been out in the next hand but I would not be thinking I made a mistake.
That's what's funny, I don't think I was desperate yet but I did want to take the higher risk for higher reward at this point hoping to really increase my stack, there was one hand and one hand only I was worried about and unfortunately Trevor stacked the deck so that it was dealt to him! :bs:Â
I don't like the "almost" right price, but considering the short stack you'd be left with going into the blinds, I would probably still do this face-up.
If I stacked it, I'd have given myself A9, and then this would be a bad beat post
I had A-9 suited in that hand. I was almost tempted to call too.
/g2
Disclaimer: Yes, I am aware that AA beats KK even if there is no ace on the board
Mark
home games are rigged!!!!!
1600 left if you fold, blinds of 150-300. M of < 4, and the blinds are soon to hit you. This is firmly red zone territory.
Yes, if you were 100% sure, but this is NEVER going to happen unless he exposes his hand.
Incidently, assuming the AA wasn't in the blinds (maybe he was, I'm not 100% clear). It's 1600 to call into a pot of 1500+1500+3100+300+150=6550. You're getting 4.1:1 to call. I don't see how on such a short stack and getting anything better than 3:1 how KK isn't an auto-call. His range IS bigger than AA.
As you said...
Seriously, the call is automatic here. If you're going to flat call to INDUCE someone to overcall or come over the top of you, you don't change your mind and fold halfway through when the pot odds dictate your play...
Tough beat.
of spades.
But I trusted my read, and let them go!!
now I am at peace!