Limit Hold'em Question about the SB
When playing a limit game and there are several limpers pre-flop (3-4 or more) and you are on the SB, do you limp no matter what the cards or do you have to have some kind of hand? And if you need a hand what kind of minimum hand would you be looking for?
Comments
That being said, while many more hands become playable due to implied odds with multiple bad limpers, 92o is NEVER going to be profitable for one bet from the CO or button in a structured limit game. You are going to be throwing your hand away >95% of the time post flop. Similarly that trash isn't worth a half bet in the SB. Only in a 2/3 SB structure game would it be worth completing with just about any 2 (assuming you play exceptionally better than your opponents post-flop).
Classic example of remembering the dream monster flops you've gotten with a "lucky hand". Unfortunately these occurances happen far too infrequently to make up for the multitude of small/large losses that happen in between.
I would have to disagree with that statement. In theory 23 is not a 12.5% underdog to AK but in limit if you hit bottom pr, AK can continue to bet and you can call down to the river and it is not going to cost you much. However in nl if you hit bottom pr AK is going to bet you out of the pot well before the river. Are you really willing to consider bottom pr as sufficient justification to call off your entire stack?
It was true it was a dream flop and will not happen often, and I do throw away my hand a lot post flop. However in a 11 handed 2/5 game which Rama puts on I play a lot of hands from late position rarely throwing away anything.Â
It's true your cards are just over 5% to win the hand and it comes down to being able to fold it assuming other random hands. But against the standard 2/5 player i'll take that.Â
I still don't think many offsuit hands are going to do well in that spot in a super loose game. In a typical $2-5 Brantford game with 5 limpers in ahead of you and loose blinds, I'm far more apt to limp a hand like 64s than K7o. Offsuit hands like 92o that have no high card strength, no connectedness, no suitedness, just aren't going to do much for you even against the worst post-flop players in the world since they so rarely connect (and because you're up aganst 6 of them).
My answer is yes, I do almost all the time. Â I know I'm a large dog in the 2/5 games and I throw away well over 90% of them after the flop. Â I personally think the risk reward ratio works. Â In a larger game I generally don't. Â
Scoob says no, doesn't do it and doesn't think you should. Â I guess it comes down to your tolerence for risk and your ability to throw away your hand after the flop. Â Obviously even if you hit somewhat you could be dead. Â A flop of K J 9 with 2 suits makes your 9 2 off l looking real bad. Â Even a flop of 6 7 9 rainbow with your 9 isn't good. Â You need to hit the 9 9 k rainbow flop and get the dude with the k-2 suited raising at you. Â Few and far between but I think it's worth it. Â If you can't throw your cards away after the flop because you have middle pair no kicker or worse then throw them away before the flop. Â
Tommy Angelo said it best. For me to play, I need good cards, or good position.
Is the BB a frequent raiser? If so, I'm folding all of my garbage. If not, I'll generally call any suited garbage or unsuited connectors and gappers if both cards are higher than 8. Against several limpers, small pairs will rarely stand up so I need the possibility of a premium hand.
The only time I'm playing 72o, 82o or 83o is if I'm checking in the BB.
Joe, against as few as 3 or 4 limpers and the BB, you're getting 8 to 1 or 10 to 1 on your money. If you're throwing away 95% of your hands post-flop, I don't see how this pays off over time. The sort of flop you need to see to make a hand wouldn't be terribly attractive to other players, so your implied odds in most of these situations are rather low, I'd think.
I think in giant multiway super loose games ANY unsuited hand can be trouble (KJ, JT, QT). I think they tend to feed the flush draws in those games which are getting great odds to draw (and raise for value) with their hands.
This is pretty close to my SB range in a game like this. I'm probably only playing down to T9o (98o and 87o seem fairly borderline, my opponents would have to be exceptionally bad post-flop to play these).
I agree here, since most flops that hit you hard enough also don't give anyone else a reasonable hand. The exception is the idiot that flops a pair and calls down, but he won't play back at you unless he has a good kicker, is a LAG, or has you beat. I think the problem with hands like 92o is that with 6-7 limpers, there is a fairly reasonable chance that the field has both of your outs dominated. Even when you get that K99 flop, there is a reasonable chance that some idiot is playing a junk hand like Q9o, or 98o and may have you outkicked (yes I know it's fairly low probability that the case trips card is out, but in a big field of limpers, I'm always wary).
Thanks Scoob, I do respect your opinion too. I think this type of discussion makes this forum great as we can disagree and not be flaming each other as on some other forums. Maybe I'd get more value if I didn't play that many hands, however the extra dollar or so to call doesn't bother me much and I seem to get paid off large. I know the early Saturday morning crowd at Rama is super passive and super loose and it's nice to warm up to the better games with their money. I like playing against the guys who have played there all night and are trying to make back their money.
Like I said that's how I prefer to play in those games. And again in a 5 10 or 10 20 I wouldn't even think of it for all the reasons you mentioned.
There "might" be something to be said about the better implied odds you're getting at the 2-5 game since the big bets are more than double the size of the small bet. On a downside, the crappy rake structure of 2-5 sucks (but that's another discussion).