Stealing/Defending vs. LAG/TAGtards
Disclaimer: I'm not sure where I'm going with this. I think this is more hearing myself think in print than anything.
Background:
Stealing: My stealing/defending ranges lately have taken a real swing. I used to routinely open raise with a wide range on the button/cutoff regardless of who's in the blinds. Lately however I think I've tightened my range of raising in obvious steal positions vs. psycho-aggro blind defenders since it's obvious I'm in a position to steal (however as such, in general I'm opening my capping standards to a 3 bet and I'm generally discounting the strength of the 3 bettor's vs. my open-raise).
Defending: I've opened my 3 betting/calling range immensely. In general I find I'm willing to 3 bet often with any decent A, any pair, any 2 paint. Similarly I'm not averse to defending with hands like 86s, K7o, T8o, etc.
Now I'm contemplating whether my approach is good or bad. Defending with such crap hands while OOP, and actually reducing the range I'll steal with in position. It makes little sense except from the standpoint that I'm getting somewhat better odds to call one bet from the BB vs. putting in ANY money whatsoever into the pot when I'm in position (on a steal).
In general I try to determine what "type" of stealer/defender they are:
1) Weak stealer: The type that will frequently open raise, but then back down quickly in the face of aggression (say vs. a 3 bet preflop/flop lead). In general I find they have a big open raising range, but they back down quickly because of Sklanksy's gap concept.
2) Non-aggro stealer: I tyring to tighten up my defending range here. Just because a 30/4 open-raised on the button doesn't mean he can't (and often will) have 88+, AJ+.
3) LA-P. Generally easy to know where you stand postflop. You can bet a lot of hands for value against these post-flop calling stations.
4) LAGtard (and to a lesser extent TAGtards): You know you MUST showdown anything reasonable here (a pair, A high on some boards). You know they're betting to the river with air often. You will see check-raise and reraise bluffs. These guys won't fold ANYTHING. If they flop anything better than a pair (bottom) expect it to be capped on the flop (or they'll check-raise the turn). Next to impossible to figure out what they have, and even tougher to use a bluff against them, since they'll call/reraise you with weaker hands. I tend to like check-calling the more moderate strength hands, and just playing big hands fast (possibly check-raising turn frequently for value).
I guess the tricky ones are 4) Do you want to play more hands OOP vs. these psycho aggros (since if you make any sort of hand you get paid), or do you simply tighten up your range, and then pummel them with the nuts (since they never fold). (Note: I'm not talking about sensible LAGs that will abandon steals in the face of aggression from a solid player).
An example from the other night of a TAGtard I encountered:
His stats are 15/15/6. In short very TAGish and no real reason to think this guy is getting overly out of line. Except the last 3-4 orbits he's pretty much compulsively open raised the CO or button if folded to him... Finally I get something better than rag-rag offsuit to play back with (yes I know it's a monster but that's not the point).
***** Hand History for Game 4509320787 *****
$5/$10 Texas Hold'em - Tuesday, June 13, 20:13:59 ET 2006
Table Table 96588 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 1: DarthJudas ( $278.50 )
Seat 6: EricStoner_8 ( $160.50 )
Seat 9: LonelySWF ( $226 )
Seat 4: ScoobD ( $380 )
Seat 7: jestercat ( $74.50 )
Seat 8: WDJac ( $297 )
Seat 2: psykok ( $243 )
Seat 10: dkholdem ( $245 )
ScoobD posts small blind [$2].
EricStoner_8 posts big blind [$5].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to ScoobD [ Ad Kd ]
jestercat folds.
WDJac folds.
LonelySWF folds.
dkholdem folds.
DarthJudas folds.
psykok raises [$10].
ScoobD raises [$13].
EricStoner_8 folds.
psykok calls [$5].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2d, 3d, Js ]
ScoobD bets [$5].
just_kit has joined the table.
psykok raises [$10].
ScoobD raises [$10].
psykok calls [$5].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 4d ]
ScoobD bets [$10].
psykok calls [$10].
** Dealing River ** [ 5h ]
pokerdan25 has joined the table.
ScoobD bets [$10].
psykok raises [$20].
ScoobD raises [$20].
psykok raises [$20].
ScoobD calls [$10].
psykok shows [ 3s, 6d ] a straight, two to six.
ScoobD shows [ Ad, Kd ] a flush, ace high.
ScoobD wins $162 from the main pot with a flush, ace high.
So open your range vs. these tards trying to flop "something" and get paid, or tighten up, let them take the blinds frequently, and then just pummel them when you do get a hand?
Thoughts appreciated.
I know plan A is higher variance than B but EV-wise I'm undecided...
Background:
Stealing: My stealing/defending ranges lately have taken a real swing. I used to routinely open raise with a wide range on the button/cutoff regardless of who's in the blinds. Lately however I think I've tightened my range of raising in obvious steal positions vs. psycho-aggro blind defenders since it's obvious I'm in a position to steal (however as such, in general I'm opening my capping standards to a 3 bet and I'm generally discounting the strength of the 3 bettor's vs. my open-raise).
Defending: I've opened my 3 betting/calling range immensely. In general I find I'm willing to 3 bet often with any decent A, any pair, any 2 paint. Similarly I'm not averse to defending with hands like 86s, K7o, T8o, etc.
Now I'm contemplating whether my approach is good or bad. Defending with such crap hands while OOP, and actually reducing the range I'll steal with in position. It makes little sense except from the standpoint that I'm getting somewhat better odds to call one bet from the BB vs. putting in ANY money whatsoever into the pot when I'm in position (on a steal).
In general I try to determine what "type" of stealer/defender they are:
1) Weak stealer: The type that will frequently open raise, but then back down quickly in the face of aggression (say vs. a 3 bet preflop/flop lead). In general I find they have a big open raising range, but they back down quickly because of Sklanksy's gap concept.
2) Non-aggro stealer: I tyring to tighten up my defending range here. Just because a 30/4 open-raised on the button doesn't mean he can't (and often will) have 88+, AJ+.
3) LA-P. Generally easy to know where you stand postflop. You can bet a lot of hands for value against these post-flop calling stations.
4) LAGtard (and to a lesser extent TAGtards): You know you MUST showdown anything reasonable here (a pair, A high on some boards). You know they're betting to the river with air often. You will see check-raise and reraise bluffs. These guys won't fold ANYTHING. If they flop anything better than a pair (bottom) expect it to be capped on the flop (or they'll check-raise the turn). Next to impossible to figure out what they have, and even tougher to use a bluff against them, since they'll call/reraise you with weaker hands. I tend to like check-calling the more moderate strength hands, and just playing big hands fast (possibly check-raising turn frequently for value).
I guess the tricky ones are 4) Do you want to play more hands OOP vs. these psycho aggros (since if you make any sort of hand you get paid), or do you simply tighten up your range, and then pummel them with the nuts (since they never fold). (Note: I'm not talking about sensible LAGs that will abandon steals in the face of aggression from a solid player).
An example from the other night of a TAGtard I encountered:
His stats are 15/15/6. In short very TAGish and no real reason to think this guy is getting overly out of line. Except the last 3-4 orbits he's pretty much compulsively open raised the CO or button if folded to him... Finally I get something better than rag-rag offsuit to play back with (yes I know it's a monster but that's not the point).
***** Hand History for Game 4509320787 *****
$5/$10 Texas Hold'em - Tuesday, June 13, 20:13:59 ET 2006
Table Table 96588 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 1: DarthJudas ( $278.50 )
Seat 6: EricStoner_8 ( $160.50 )
Seat 9: LonelySWF ( $226 )
Seat 4: ScoobD ( $380 )
Seat 7: jestercat ( $74.50 )
Seat 8: WDJac ( $297 )
Seat 2: psykok ( $243 )
Seat 10: dkholdem ( $245 )
ScoobD posts small blind [$2].
EricStoner_8 posts big blind [$5].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to ScoobD [ Ad Kd ]
jestercat folds.
WDJac folds.
LonelySWF folds.
dkholdem folds.
DarthJudas folds.
psykok raises [$10].
ScoobD raises [$13].
EricStoner_8 folds.
psykok calls [$5].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2d, 3d, Js ]
ScoobD bets [$5].
just_kit has joined the table.
psykok raises [$10].
ScoobD raises [$10].
psykok calls [$5].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 4d ]
ScoobD bets [$10].
psykok calls [$10].
** Dealing River ** [ 5h ]
pokerdan25 has joined the table.
ScoobD bets [$10].
psykok raises [$20].
ScoobD raises [$20].
psykok raises [$20].
ScoobD calls [$10].
psykok shows [ 3s, 6d ] a straight, two to six.
ScoobD shows [ Ad, Kd ] a flush, ace high.
ScoobD wins $162 from the main pot with a flush, ace high.
So open your range vs. these tards trying to flop "something" and get paid, or tighten up, let them take the blinds frequently, and then just pummel them when you do get a hand?
Thoughts appreciated.
I know plan A is higher variance than B but EV-wise I'm undecided...
Comments
Is a hand that is dominated by 2 hands and beaten by 11 others really a "monster"? Just something I have been thinking about lately. Sorry...back to your question...