10/20 6 max hand
Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)
Preflop: Hero is CO with K :h:, Q :c:. Â
2 folds Hero raises, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.
Flop: (8 SB) 3Â :d:, 9 :h:, 5 :d: (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero calls, Button raises, SB folds, BB calls, Hero calls.
Turn: (7 BB) T :h:(3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, Button bets, BB calls, Hero calls.
River: (10 BB) K
: (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, Button bets, BB folds, Hero calls.
Final Pot: 12 BB
Preflop: Hero is CO with K :h:, Q :c:. Â
2 folds Hero raises, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.
Flop: (8 SB) 3Â :d:, 9 :h:, 5 :d: (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero calls, Button raises, SB folds, BB calls, Hero calls.
Turn: (7 BB) T :h:(3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, Button bets, BB calls, Hero calls.
River: (10 BB) K
: (3 players)BB checks, Hero checks, Button bets, BB folds, Hero calls.
Final Pot: 12 BB
Comments
I don't see having done much differently.
I'm primarily a short-handed player and can tell you that calling there is a losing play.
Most people don't understand that chasing overs is an even worse play short-handed than at a full-table and actually chase more short than they would full.
Thanks. I have been trying to understand playing overcards. What I don't understand though is why it is worse shorthanded. Would pot odds not be the deciding factor? I see six outs plus some kind of backdoor straight. Let's just say 6 outs (and that's even debatable I guess). Because the button called preflop (and I have no real read on him which would help) I have no reason to believe he will raise on the flop (which he does anyway...ugh). Is the first call or the second one on the flop the error?
In general, it is worse shorthanded because in most instances the pots are smaller on the flop than at a full table. Of course, some of it depends on reads...but if you're multitabling sometimes reads aren't too deep.
Looking at this hand in more detail...8sb preflop...in general, you are less afraid of flushes short-handed and more concerned about hitting big pairs.
However, having said that 2 of your 6 outs on the flop are, at least, keeping some players in for redraws to a flush, if not completely killing your hand. So, lets count your 6 outs as an average of 5 outs. I don't even consider this a backdoor straight board as there is a 4 flush out there. So, 5 outs hopefully to the winning hand assuming not AK/AQ out there. Assuming that you are only calling 1 sb and that it doesn't get raised behind you (big assumption as there are 2 players yet to act behind you), you are getting 9:1 on your money as the pot stands (8sb preflop, 1sb on the flop so far) with the liklihood of at least the button coming along having called 2sb cold preflop. So, you are getting 10:1 on a 47:5, or roughly 10:1 shot with the expectation of winning more bets if you hit. So, not a bad call...if you are last to act and can't get raised behind. Getting raised behind makes it a bad call and a losing call in the long-run with 2 players to act behind you.
So, with the raise behind and the bb calling that gives you a total of 12sb in the pot for your 2sb, or 6:1. Not only is this not the correct odds for your hand, the fact that the button flat-called 2 bets preflop and is raising here and that the big blind initially bet out represents that the big blind likely has a flush draw or top pair with an overcard (possibly Q9 or K9), the button may have anything from a set to a flush draw with overs to an overpair TT or JJ to A9. This could leave you drawing dead, could leave you with only 2-4 clean outs, could possible keep you with 6 live outs...overall, in the long-run, this is cutting down your odds again as you are not only playing your hand now but are playing against the possible strength of their hands. Now, once you have but your initial call in the pot it is correct to call one more bet, getting 13:1, but your overall investment of 6:1 is not at all worth it.
Of course, if the table has been playing very passive up until now and this aggression was unexpected then perhaps the initial call was correct. Buttttt, if that is the case then you are still left with the fact that a passive player raised behind you on the flop, likely not good.
I guess what I'm trying to say is muck on the flop...the situation with AK/AQ, especially holding one diamond may be a bit different, but here I don't see any reason to stick around.
You are also in a great position in this hand to be trapped. Many players throw position out the window short-handed, but it is still very important.
That's my take on it anyhow.
Coles Notes version.
First call is bad IMO, second is correct.
Worse shorthanded due to pot odds, yeah.
Yes but some Gametime+ stats would have helped setup this HH nicely. Even just saying "I have no read on the button" would help.
I really need to develop this part of my game. I understand but it takes me too much time to see all this. I guess with many more thousands of hands this becomes second nature.
Allright but again the situation changes if the button is some LP. Aggression Factor stats would be helpful here and could certainly help determine if the call is worth it. I agree though that position is a big factor. Also I would expect that you I shouldn't be surprised to see a raise behind me in a 10/20 SH game. This ain't .50/1.00 full table. :-)
Thanks GTA very helpful. Meistro looking forward to your reply.
I find it highly unlikely that the button has JJ or 1010 due to the preflop action. I am a fairly aggressive player (I imagine I am 30/20 or thereabouts) and I am fairly certain the majority of players three bet those pairs preflop. Since the bet came from the big blind it is less likely (although certainly not definite) that he has Q9 or K9 because he defends with a very large range here. His flop bet is equally large, and could be a good five, any nine, a flush draw, 64, A4, A2, etc, as well as sets, two pair (many players will defend any suited cards in this spot and may be correct to do so), or hands that have me reverse dominated.
On the flop I am getting 9:1 with a hand that I average around 4-5 outs, discounting the times I am behind. This is a close decision absolutely. I also have some implied odds but also some reverse implied odds. I think if I hit my king or queen on the turn I am going to in general make money on future bets as opposed to being ahead enough to call down because of the pot size but not neccessarily being ahead. If I knew it was going to be raised behind me I would definitely fold.
A couple factors influenced me towards the call. It is very unlikely I am against AK or AQ due to the preflop action, as in these games those hands are generally an auto three bet for the vast majority of players.
There is also a small, but appreciable chance that I will get a free card on the turn.
Playing overcards is probably the hardest spot you will get put into in limit hold'em and the ability to maximize your wins with these weak draws is the difference between beating and crushing a game. This board is one of the best boards for overcards. According to Ed Miller the ideal boards for overcards are those that are not extremely co-ordinated nor those that are very dry, rather you want a semi-coordinated board such as this.
One further thought, if you are routinely giving up on the flop with these hands getting great odds you run the risk of getting ran over in these loose and aggressive games. It is somewhat important, from a meta-game perspective, to make this flop call.
On the river I was torn between three lines, bet call, check call, and check raise fold to a three bet. Given that the diamonds missed I felt I could gain an extra bet from a missed diamond bet by checking and since my read wasn't good enough to allow me to c/r-fold I felt check calling was the best option. My opponent tabled K6 of diamonds, and my hand was good.
I never stated my opinion of what to do on the river as I would never get there in this situation. I did feel that when the offsuit K fell on the river that you had a high liklihood of having the best hand. I think that if I pay to get there and hit my hand on the river then I am definitely betting for value in that spot as it is unlikely that any pair is going to fold for the size of the pot at that point (I would certainly call you down with any 9 there).
Well played, but certainly a different line than I would take. I think that folding the flop is the long-term winning play given your position wrt the lead bettor on the flop, but your analysis certainly makes me think about the hand from more angles, which I certainly appreciate.