Poker I mean Riverstars

AcidJoeAcidJoe
in Online Poker
Further to a post that went up here. WTF is up with stars, I know I lose there but this is just stupid. The river brought the last 6 hands a winner including this one that put me out. I KNOW it will happen but constantly?

This was the first real hand I saw and stayed at the starting stacks by stealing/outplaying after the flop. It was a 180 person sng.

POKERSTARS GAME #5176091983: TOURNAMENT #26033302, $4.00+$0.40 HOLD'EM NO LIMIT - LEVEL V (75/150) - 2006/06/06 - 22:37:04 (ET)
Table '26033302 1' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: Acidjoe (1550 in chips)
Seat 2: cancan0325 (1142 in chips)
Seat 3: TheBigPapa73 (1973 in chips)
Seat 4: Fletch690 (3560 in chips)
Seat 5: travisbikel (7320 in chips)
Seat 6: GuitarTom (720 in chips)
Seat 7: xv_JKlay_vx (4549 in chips)
Seat 8: fillbudge (3985 in chips)
Seat 9: sreda001 (7035 in chips)
sreda001: posts small blind 75
Acidjoe: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Acidjoe [Jc Jd]
cancan0325: folds
TheBigPapa73: folds
Fletch690: folds
travisbikel: raises 300 to 450
GuitarTom: folds
xv_JKlay_vx: folds
fillbudge: folds
sreda001: folds
Acidjoe: raises 1100 to 1550 and is all-in
travisbikel: calls 1100
*** FLOP *** [3c Qs Kh]
*** TURN *** [3c Qs Kh] [9d]
*** RIVER *** [3c Qs Kh 9d] [Ad]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Acidjoe: shows [Jc Jd] (a pair of Jacks)
travisbikel: shows [Ts As] (a pair of Aces)
travisbikel collected 3175 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3175 | Rake 0
Board [3c Qs Kh 9d Ad]
Seat 1: Acidjoe (big blind) showed [Jc Jd] and lost with a pair of Jacks
Seat 2: cancan0325 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: TheBigPapa73 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Fletch690 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: travisbikel showed [Ts As] and won (3175) with a pair of Aces
Seat 6: GuitarTom folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: xv_JKlay_vx folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: fillbudge (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: sreda001 (small blind) folded before Flop

Comments

  • HobbesHobbes
    I hear ya Joe.

    Last night I raised 4x on the button with AJs and got a caller.
    Flop came A77...so I made a pot sized bet.
    Donkey called my raise with T7o.


    Later top 2 pair (blinds 75/150), bet 1500 got called by a gutshot who made his straight.


    Must be the 6/6/6 thing.... :D

    Uggggg. :'(
  • GTA PokerGTA Poker
    I had a good night, I caught an ace on the river once in a 180 man sng and pulled a "negraneau" on some donk raising AJ into my blind, flopping trip 7s on his ass
  • WaterLooserWaterLooser
    Would it have been better or worse if a J hit on the river instead?
  • Big EBig E
    Not sure what you're complaining about Joe? Easy call from travis IMHO and you lost the coin flip?
  • WaterLooserWaterLooser
    Eric, only 1 overcard, so not quite a coinflip, more like 3:1 I think. However, I might make that call too, a lot of weak players (myself included) like any suited Ace.
  • Big EBig E
    WaterLooser wrote:
    Eric, only 1 overcard, so not quite a coinflip, more like 3:1 I think.  However, I might make that call too, a lot of weak players (myself included) like any suited Ace.

    True and I agree...but I'd still call. How about the play Joe made with the Jacks..do you push them here? I might tend to call and see a flop, looking at the pre-flop raise assuming not much of a read on the raiser I think there's a good chance you're behind or looking at a coin flip? I think this is a hand he could have, and likely should have gotten away from.
  • MonteroyMonteroy
    Any chance a seperate forum can be created for people to post bad beat posts. Most poker forum boards eventually do this to allow people to post bad beats to their heart's content without inflicting them on the rest of the readers who got bored to death of these posts long ago.


    "WTF is up with stars, I know I lose there but this is just stupid. The river brought the last 6 hands a winner including this one that put me out. I KNOW it will happen but constantly?"



    That forum would also allow people to post their tiny sample sized, selective memory "xxxx is rigged" stories all they like to people who enjoy reading them.
  • AcidJoeAcidJoe
    WaterLooser wrote:
    Would it have been better or worse if a J hit on the river instead?

    LOL I actually expected that.

    How about the play Joe made with the Jacks..do you push them here?

    With basically 10 BB left in chips I'm not calling a raise for almost 1/3 of my stack. I'm pushing or folding but that's just me. For me that push is pretty standard. The flop gave him additional outs which is never good.
  • WaterLooserWaterLooser
    Big E wrote:
    How about the play Joe made with the Jacks..do you push them here?

    I agree with Joes comment, this is either push or fold territory. I probably push. He could raise with any A, any K, a smaller pocket pair, if I just call, I have to fold on the flop to almost ANY aggression, especially if there are overcards.

    Question back, what do you do if he limps in instead of raises? Take the flop for free (well not free, but you are the BB)? Raise it up and attack the weakness? I hate small pairs like 5s, etc. but I dislike JJ at a full table mid-tourney more I think. It is too easy to lose it all. On a side note, won me a nice pot today :D Bubble situation however late in a tournament, also another factor here. With 75\150 blinds, probably still lots of people left.
  • Big EBig E
    WaterLooser wrote:
    I agree with Joes comment, this is either push or fold territory.  I probably push.  He could raise with any A, any K, a smaller pocket pair, if I just call, I have to fold on the flop to almost ANY aggression, especially if there are overcards.

    I'm not sure I agree, it's not 1/3 his stack it's closer to 1/5 his stack and although he is around the 10BB mark I'd rather call the raise...now, if I was first in I'd push here for sure but in this case I think I'd just call...but I agree that given that flop or any flop with over cards I'd have to fold to any pressure. Also, without any real read on the raiser who knows what he could raise with but when I don't have a read I usually take the cautious approach and give the raiser credit for a decent hand....so call it weak play, it probably is but I'd still call. Hind sight is always 20/20 and knowing the outcome always makes it easier to justify certain moves...bad play or not, it was my first instinct.
    WaterLooser wrote:
    Question back, what do you do if he limps in instead of raises?  Take the flop for free (well not free, but you are the BB)?  Raise it up and attack the weakness?  I hate small pairs like 5s, etc. but I dislike JJ at a full table mid-tourney more I think.  It is too easy to lose it all.  On a side note, won me a nice pot today :D  Bubble situation however late in a tournament, also another factor here.  With 75\150 blinds, probably still lots of people left.

    Hmm, good question...and it depends on the action after the limp.....I think if more followed suit and tried to limp I'd likely push as the pot would be substantial and I don't like JJ against a large field. I would push hoping to take the pot right then or at least be looking at a coin flip against 1 other opponent, in this case I'd say the pot would justify it.....if the raiser limped and everything else stayed the same then I'd say there's two options, push and hope for the best or limp and see a flop...I don't think I'd raise as it would commit you to the pot sp may as well push and give your opponent a tough decision...at least by limping you can make a bet on the flop to see where you stand, you may win the pot then or if he comes back at you you'll have an exit plan and you can dump and look for a better spot to get your chips in. I honestly can't say what I would do tho...do you think my thinking is way off and too weak/tight?
  • GTA PokerGTA Poker
    You're blaming Joe for getting his money in as a big favourite vs Ace/Ten?????

    Wow, that's just brutal analysis and losing poker. Results-oriented hand analysis makes for losing players.
  • MonteroyMonteroy
    With regard to the actual hand, given the original poster's fairly small stack and the relatively low cost of the tournament (where getting called by dominated hands like A rag, small pair, or KJ is much more likely especially from a gambling type large stack) the all in pre flop push is by far the best plan. If he has AA,KK or QQ then so be it. I do not see the point in calling the raise to see the flop and then act. If the flop has a K or Q it will be frustrating to go check then face a big bet. The only other potential plan is to do a stop and go play of calling preflop then shoving on any flop, but frankly given the stakes of the tournament you may as well not be tricky, just shove as a ton of hands will call that should not.

    The A 10 call is marginal at best and sure it is annoying to lose when that happens, but all you can do is create the favorable situations and hope for the best. Even as a 3-1 favorite you will lose 1 in 4.
  • Flint BonesFlint Bones
    I'm not saying it was a great call but I am not that surprised. A lot of people make that call. Perhaps he had a bad read on you that you were going for a steal.

    Bad break, Joe.
  • Big EBig E
    GTA Poker wrote:
    You're blaming Joe for getting his money in as a big favourite vs Ace/Ten?????

    no, you're absolutely wrong, I'm not blaming Joe for anything...I'm simply questioning a push with JJ when a player ahead of you has raised. You're implying I know he has AT and based my comments on that which is a ludicrous assumption.
  • GTA PokerGTA Poker
    Big E wrote:
    GTA Poker wrote:
    You're blaming Joe for getting his money in as a big favourite vs Ace/Ten?????

    no, you're absolutely wrong, I'm not blaming Joe for anything...I'm simply questioning a push with JJ when a player ahead of you has raised. You're implying I know he has AT and based my comments on that which is a ludicrous assumption.

    Oh. ok...it sounded like you wanted him to flat call, see a flop without AKQ and then push on the flop. Many people see that as the correct play.
  • AcidJoeAcidJoe
    If I did flat call the raise I would not have hung around after that flop if there was any aggression.

    If there were limpers I'd 50% limp and 50% raise to about $450-500 and try and take it down there. If reraised all in, I probably call. I also probably call my own all in if I was the other dude. I had only been at this table for less than one orbit so I had no real read on the players.

    While some took it as a bad beat post (which in someways it is), I am glad to see the level of discussion going on over this hand. I think all of us find ourselves in this position (approx 10 BB, far away from the $$ and having to do something). I am reviewing the comments and thinking how to incorporate them into my game.

    I started with 1550 a call of 450 is approximately 30% of my chips (not 1/5 someone said). I do realize I had posted 150 blind and the actual call is 300 which would leave me with 1100 chips if I call. Way to many chips just to call the raise in my opinion. I may have done that if I had more chips and still would have been able to fight another fight if forced to fold.

    I also prefer to be the pusher and not the one calling the push, so as not to end up on the rail as I did last night at Bristol.
  • GTA PokerGTA Poker
    GTA Poker wrote:
    Big E wrote:
    GTA Poker wrote:
    You're blaming Joe for getting his money in as a big favourite vs Ace/Ten?????

    no, you're absolutely wrong, I'm not blaming Joe for anything...I'm simply questioning a push with JJ when a player ahead of you has raised. You're implying I know he has AT and based my comments on that which is a ludicrous assumption.

    Oh. ok...it sounded like you wanted him to flat call, see a flop without AKQ and then push on the flop. Many people see that as the correct play.

    I'm NOT saying to flat call is right, what I'm saying is that many people think that is the right play after they lose to the 3 outer on the river. They are looknig at the game incorrectly because they lost and not seeing that getting their money in while far ahead was the right play.
  • Big EBig E
    GTA Poker wrote:

    I'm NOT saying to flat call is right, what I'm saying is that many people think that is the right play after they lose to the 3 outer on the river.  They are looking at the game incorrectly because they lost and not seeing that getting their money in while far ahead was the right play.

    Ok, understand you now...and I agree with you, like I said in an earlier post it's easy to justify a course of action, say calling, when you know the outcome of the hand...and I agree that is a dangerous thing to do as you could end up justifying and adopting poor play.

    Also, Joe, I posted almost 1/5, you started with 1550, 150 was tied up in the BB, you had to call another 300 with 1400 left, between 1/4 and 1/5th of your stack....I guess my point wasn't quite expressed properly....You have 10xBB left, I don't think you're in panic mode yet...what type of read did you have on the raiser, or what range of hands did you put him on....myself if I think the raiser is likely raising with a top ten hand I'm not so sure I want to come over the top with JJ I might choose to call and see a flop.....I am assuming here and giving credit to the raiser for having a top ten hand. Is that looking at this completely the wrong way...I know I am a tight player and sometimes weak...and I need to change that so is my thinking completely flawed, given the assumptions I made is it an easy auto-push in this situation?
  • doctorappledoctorapple
    Well Joe,

    I was waiting to read that a Q came on the turn, then a K on the river.
    That would of made for a good story.
    I see this as a correct raise, correct push, correct call . . .
    I've seen, read, and been a part of much suckier beats.
    I feel your pain though.

    doc
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