Shorthanded poker and cashouts.
Hey all... this is a continuation of an older topic that re-surfaced in ScottyZ's congratulatory thread, so I thought I'd start a new one to keep things straight. It's the crazy story of how I turned $40 into $45K playing shorthanded poker at PokerRoom, so for those of you who have read about it before, or just plain don't care, skip it.
By way of background, in ScottyZ's congratulatory thread, I posted:
Then one day after a deposit I decided to try something a little different. I thought, what the hell, it's only $36, why not make a run at it and see how far it goes. Coincidentally, I happened to be reading HoldEm Poker for Advanced Players at that exact time, and I felt like I was getting a lot out of it. I won't attribute the crazy streak I went on to reading that book, though. It takes a lot of luck to consistently beat limits--shorthanded, no less--that you have no business playing.
As I mentioned, it only took me about a week to get to $1000, which is 20XBB at 25/50. That in itself is not astounding... a good run of cards through the 5/10 and 10/20 levels and you can find yourself with 1K very quickly, especially shorthanded. What is highly unusual to me is the fact that I managed to be so profitable for so long once I got to the site's highest limit, especially towards the beginning when 3 bad hands would have put me back to zero.
When the money really started to come in, I'd play until 5:00am just about every weeknight, then grab 6 hours sleep and head to work. I was like a zombie, but I was prone to laughing a lot, at nothing, by myself. I'd be in the car on the way to work and I'd be killing myself laughing. Same thing on the way home.... I just couldn't believe what was happening to me, and neither could my g/f.
It was a crazy three months...
Due to the Stars and Regina wins this year, I'm in the same boat, where poker winnings are approaching my actual earnings from my 'job'. The reason I mention this is because I think it's important. If the government looks at what is your "primary source of income", you don't want it to be poker. I'd imagine I would get taxed on my winnings if that were the case. However, I don't think that's the only criteria...
The government looks at the level of organization that goes into your gambling when it determines whether or not it's going to tax you. Basically, does it LOOK like it's a job? Do you play at set hours? Do you keep detailed records? Do you have any priveleged information that makes it less like 'gambling'? These are only some of the criteria.
Or, is it something you do that you've been lucky at, and it just happens to be almost as lucrative as your real profession....
To be honest, it's really really vague, and from what I understand, Canadians are very rarely taxed on gambling winnings. I intent to find out for sure before I file my 2003 and 2004 taxes, but from what I've read, I really don't think I'll have to pay.
To finish this monstrous thread off, the reason I stopped playing there is because, as I said, the good times were dying. Crazy players eventually busted out, and were replaced by very solid ones. Also, the stress of winning or losing 5K in one night (yes, both happened....) was getting to be, well, stressful. And I was tired a lot. So, I cashed out what I had left there, and decided to use some of my total winnings to play tournaments. It was a part of poker I'd been ignoring for the most part, and I figured I'd give it a shot. Less money risked = less stress, and that's been the case.
Lately, I've been playing in the 30/60 at Stars, kind of heading back into that world a bit again. It's been going pretty well, and I'll probably play cash games and tournaments for a while, until the swings from the cash games get to be where I'm not having fun anymore. Then I'll probably go to Vegas again....
Thanks for your interest. I'm in tournament hell right now (I've gone a long while without cashing) and it feels good to write about greener pastures.
Regards,
all_aces
By way of background, in ScottyZ's congratulatory thread, I posted:
And NurseHoliday responded:We all have 'real life' financial responsibilities, and it would be unwise to neglect them. I only play semi-high-limit because I've been a lucky S.O.B. in the past year, and my poker bankroll is now a little bit ridiculous. I posted this interesting situation a while ago, but if you haven't read it I'll post it one more time. About a year ago I was playing with a very small online bankroll as well... $1/$2 and $2/$4 games mostly... and one day I decided to take $40 and play exclusively shorthanded poker, moving up in limits as soon as I had 20 X BB. In what will probably remain the most incredible streak of dumb-ass luck in the history of poker, a week later I was playing in the $25/$50 game, and stayed there for 3 months. When it was all said and done, my $40 parlayed itself into a $45K USD total cashout.
That's about it. We all risk what we can honestly, comfortably, afford to risk, and because of those crazy three months, I've been able to risk a lot more, both in tournaments and in ring games. If not for the "shorthanded adventure", I'd still be playing $1/$2 and $2/$4, and I'd be enjoying myself just as much as I do now.
As for losing $200 on one hand, man, I don't blame you for not wanting to know the feeling. It's not good. But like life, poker has its ups and downs, and it'll all work out in the end. Hopefully it'll work out for the better though....
Congrats on your success in the Stars tournaments; it sounds like you're doing very well indeed.
Regards,
all_aces
So, here goes...Hey Aces,
Must say I always enjoy your posts.
Why did you decide to focus on shorthanded games? What strategies did you employ? At $25/$50 did you also only seek out shorthanded games?
How many hours/week were you playing as you went from $40 bankroll at $1-$2 up the ranks?
And this is probably a different question for a different thread, but how did you deal with the huge cashout? i.e. is this considered income...do you have to claim it (I totally understand that you may not wish to answer this question).
Thanks,
Nurse
I'd played shorthanded games (1/2 and 2/4) for quite some time there, and was doing well. Not spectacularly well, though. Basically, I'd deposit $36 USD by 900Pay, play shorthanded games, make my way gradually up to maybe $200, and then lose it. Usually this process took a few weeks, and then I'd just deposit $36 again. I didn't mind the fact that I wasn't cashing out... I just looked at it as cheap entertainment. As for why I picked shorthanded games in the first place, I guess at that time there weren't thousands of shorthanded players, so I got to know some of them. This was good for two reasons: I like to chat sometimes when I play and I enjoyed talking with some of them, and I got to know how certain players played.Why did you decide to focus on shorthanded games?
Then one day after a deposit I decided to try something a little different. I thought, what the hell, it's only $36, why not make a run at it and see how far it goes. Coincidentally, I happened to be reading HoldEm Poker for Advanced Players at that exact time, and I felt like I was getting a lot out of it. I won't attribute the crazy streak I went on to reading that book, though. It takes a lot of luck to consistently beat limits--shorthanded, no less--that you have no business playing.
Aggression against the players who I thought were too tight, and becoming a calling station against players who I thought were too aggressive. In a 5-max game, it doesn't take long to figure out who's who. As I've mentioned before, I started calling down a lot of bluffs with ace-high, and winning a lot of pots that way (mostly at the 25/50 game). I know that sounds ridiculous, but trust me, there were some absolute maniacs trying to push anybody and everybody around in that game. You'd think after the tenth time I beat someone with ace-high, they'd stop trying to bluff me, but no. These players aren't around there anymore, and that's why I'm not there anymore, either.What strategies did you employ?
Yes. There was always one table going, and sometimes up to four. Once a week or so a full table game would start up, and I'd play in that if everybody left the shorthanded games.At $25/$50 did you also only seek out shorthanded games?
Waaaaaaaaaay too many. But I was happy.How many hours/week were you playing as you went from $40 bankroll at $1-$2 up the ranks?
As I mentioned, it only took me about a week to get to $1000, which is 20XBB at 25/50. That in itself is not astounding... a good run of cards through the 5/10 and 10/20 levels and you can find yourself with 1K very quickly, especially shorthanded. What is highly unusual to me is the fact that I managed to be so profitable for so long once I got to the site's highest limit, especially towards the beginning when 3 bad hands would have put me back to zero.When the money really started to come in, I'd play until 5:00am just about every weeknight, then grab 6 hours sleep and head to work. I was like a zombie, but I was prone to laughing a lot, at nothing, by myself. I'd be in the car on the way to work and I'd be killing myself laughing. Same thing on the way home.... I just couldn't believe what was happening to me, and neither could my g/f.
When I hit 3K, I thought to myself 'holy shit, I have 3K', and then I cashed out around $1500 I think. LOL. Once again, I'm amazed I didn't lose what I had left in there in about four hands. I eventually developed a system where I'd make it to 12K, cash out 5K, and try to do it again. This meant that every week or two, a FedEx envelope would arrive at my door with a cheque in it for 5K USD. I'd take it to the bank, and deposit it into a new U.S. account. The first couple of times the bank put a 30-day hold on the cheques, and then when I kept coming in, and the cheques kept clearing, they took the holds off them altogether. Nobody asked me where I was getting the U.S. cash from. (As an aside, when I brought in my cheque from the Regina tournament, it said 'Poker Winnings' on it, so if anyone there was curious, I think they've pieced it together....)how did you deal with the huge cashout?
It was a crazy three months...
I don't think I have to claim it, but I'm not 100% sure. I don't like the idea of prison, so if I have to claim it, I will. I haven't filed my taxes from 2003 yet because I am not 100% sure about what is in store for me, and I plan to speak with an accountant about this stuff within the next month. The government won't be penalizing me for the late filing, though, because I'm sure that they must owe me money regardless of whether I have to pay tax on those winnings or not. (I used a bunch of it towards my RRSP's, which as you know is deductable.)is this considered income...do you have to claim it (I totally understand that you may not wish to answer this question).
Due to the Stars and Regina wins this year, I'm in the same boat, where poker winnings are approaching my actual earnings from my 'job'. The reason I mention this is because I think it's important. If the government looks at what is your "primary source of income", you don't want it to be poker. I'd imagine I would get taxed on my winnings if that were the case. However, I don't think that's the only criteria...
The government looks at the level of organization that goes into your gambling when it determines whether or not it's going to tax you. Basically, does it LOOK like it's a job? Do you play at set hours? Do you keep detailed records? Do you have any priveleged information that makes it less like 'gambling'? These are only some of the criteria.
Or, is it something you do that you've been lucky at, and it just happens to be almost as lucrative as your real profession....
To be honest, it's really really vague, and from what I understand, Canadians are very rarely taxed on gambling winnings. I intent to find out for sure before I file my 2003 and 2004 taxes, but from what I've read, I really don't think I'll have to pay.
To finish this monstrous thread off, the reason I stopped playing there is because, as I said, the good times were dying. Crazy players eventually busted out, and were replaced by very solid ones. Also, the stress of winning or losing 5K in one night (yes, both happened....) was getting to be, well, stressful. And I was tired a lot. So, I cashed out what I had left there, and decided to use some of my total winnings to play tournaments. It was a part of poker I'd been ignoring for the most part, and I figured I'd give it a shot. Less money risked = less stress, and that's been the case.
Lately, I've been playing in the 30/60 at Stars, kind of heading back into that world a bit again. It's been going pretty well, and I'll probably play cash games and tournaments for a while, until the swings from the cash games get to be where I'm not having fun anymore. Then I'll probably go to Vegas again....
Thanks for your interest. I'm in tournament hell right now (I've gone a long while without cashing) and it feels good to write about greener pastures.
Regards,
all_aces
Comments
Another time you can tell me about your tournament experiences...i.e. Regina, others?
A final question - have the fish really gone away? At first I was afraid of that, but now I wonder....with Poker rising phoenix-like in popularity, will there not be another wave (upon wave) of lemmings throwing their money away?
My online poker playing experience consists entirely of playing various games over the past 2 weeks at stars. My observation - many players treat this like a game of chance - if I win, great, if I lose, that's to be expected. Not many seem to be students of the game - i.e. haven't read a book, haven't played any WilsonSoftware games, don't know pot odds from a pot luck, etc.
In short, I'm embarking on a journey similar to yours last year - with no delusions that I will soon be sitting on 45K !! But I am keen to see how high I can climb on my limited bankroll. I'll keep you posted.
I really do think so. The question is: where are they, and how do we get their money? Wish I knew. Stars is not the place to be for fish, but it is the place to be for well-run, well-attended multi-table tournaments. As for cash games, well, it's no PokerRoom 9 months ago, but I honestly don't know where that might happen again. As you said, WPT/CPT/WSOP/everything else will hopefully make it happen at most sites, at most limits, for a while.
I think now's the perfect time. Enjoy! Just about everyone who posts here has an edge on a lot of players these days, IMHO.
Regards,
all_aces
Cheers,
all_aces
ScottyZ
Thanks Scotty... trips to Vegas usually provide some interesting stories, I imagine, so that stuff pretty much wrote itself. And then I took it and made it much longer than it needed to be...
Regards,
all_aces
http://pokerforum.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=412
http://pokerforum.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=413
http://pokerforum.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=414
http://pokerforum.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=415
http://pokerforum.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=416
http://pokerforum.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=417
ScottyZ
What happens in Vegas, stays on public internet forums.
ScottyZ
Thanks Iron! They're probably a *little* longer than they needed to be, but they make for some good 'I got some time to kill at work' reading. I used to love reading Andy Glazer's (RIP) reports for this reason.
Cheers,
all_aces
I can relate to this.
Ditto! Should be a good time... my g/f is quite excited about the whole thing... (she doesn't get out much...) I'm not that exciting a person to be around, but at the same time, I'm not belligerent. Usually. I don't react well to people chasing gutshots to the river and hitting them, though. This happened to me last night in the $30/$60 and I was disappointed in myself, because I kind of pulled a Hellmuth:
me: roflmao
me: I love people who chase gutshots to the river
him: I had an ace too
me: oh yes
me: that's right
me: you had an ace too.
him: whatever man, go cry somewhere else
me: no thanks I'd rather stay close to you
him: good, so I can take more of your money
me: you'll have to keep hitting gutshots on the river to get it
me: but it seems that you're capable of doing that
him: whatever
me: lol
I later found him at a shorthanded game and apologized. I said I was out of line, and that he rivered me, big deal, it happens all the time. He had nothing to say.
:redface:
But, I rarely lose my cool like that, if ever, so Saturday should be a very peaceful occasion lol.
Regards,
all_aces
ps: Another conversation from the same game:
her: aces, who's your picture of
me: me!
her: you look like a pigeon.
me: lol
me: I enjoy the fact that I look like a pigeon...
her: lol j/k
Although I wasn't trying to pick a picture that makes me look like a fish, it seems to have turned out that way. Sweeeeeet.
Dave = Han Solo?
ScottyZ