B&M = donkeys
Warning: not much content.
B&M players are awful. I'm astounded how any of them have any money whatsoever. I figure most B&M players original buyin would be gone in a matter of minutes online. Even the bad online players could kill these guys.
If only Brantford was closer...that place is an ATM.
I think the favourite part of my recent session was the old regulars that won't be pushed around by the young guy. I think they see tight and equate that with "I can push this guy around" which makes me laugh and laugh and laugh. When you have a guy that auto limp-3 bets me when I raise with any 2 "to build a pot" when I have a legitimate monster...nice play, you've just succeeded in getting in 4 bets preflop vs the tightest player at the table when they raised...solid poker. Then when they insist on bluffing/semi-bluffing their straight or flush draw to the river every single hand they play (which is a lot), and get picked off hand after hand after hand, so that the most common phrase of the night at the river is "You're good!" ,followed by the angry muck, unable to understand why none of the last 50 bluff attempts in the last 60 hands have worked. I mean you'd think eventually they'd clue in to maybe save the odd bet here or there...
Oh, and then they never EVER play a legitimate monster fast either. Who bets/raises with a set? I end up in a 4 way capped pot with AQc vs these 2 old LAGs that don't like me much and another old guy that at least seemed to pay attention to the table, but had been on a horrendous run and is likely tilting a bit. Flop comes KTx and LAG1 bets, call, I call getting like 18:1 on my gutshot, and other lag calls. Turn is an A which is a tricky card. LAG checks, old guy checks, I take the cautious road and check, other LAG behind me checks it through. Now I'm confused and annoyed I gave a free card. River is a rag but puts 3 diamonds on board (runner-runner). LAG1 bets, old quiet guy now raises. I don't like it and fold. LAG 2 looks pissed and calls 2 cold, and other lag calls. LAG1 to my utter surprise has TT for a flopped set. Old guy shows 65d for the flush and the other LAG shows KK for top set! 2 flopped sets and they manage to get in a total of 1 small bet on the flop and no bets on the turn (vs 2 weak draws in a monster pot no less). The KK guy made some comment after about being afraid I had AA when the ace hit since "I saw a hand like that the other night on TV". OK buddy.
B&M players are awful. I'm astounded how any of them have any money whatsoever. I figure most B&M players original buyin would be gone in a matter of minutes online. Even the bad online players could kill these guys.
If only Brantford was closer...that place is an ATM.
I think the favourite part of my recent session was the old regulars that won't be pushed around by the young guy. I think they see tight and equate that with "I can push this guy around" which makes me laugh and laugh and laugh. When you have a guy that auto limp-3 bets me when I raise with any 2 "to build a pot" when I have a legitimate monster...nice play, you've just succeeded in getting in 4 bets preflop vs the tightest player at the table when they raised...solid poker. Then when they insist on bluffing/semi-bluffing their straight or flush draw to the river every single hand they play (which is a lot), and get picked off hand after hand after hand, so that the most common phrase of the night at the river is "You're good!" ,followed by the angry muck, unable to understand why none of the last 50 bluff attempts in the last 60 hands have worked. I mean you'd think eventually they'd clue in to maybe save the odd bet here or there...
Oh, and then they never EVER play a legitimate monster fast either. Who bets/raises with a set? I end up in a 4 way capped pot with AQc vs these 2 old LAGs that don't like me much and another old guy that at least seemed to pay attention to the table, but had been on a horrendous run and is likely tilting a bit. Flop comes KTx and LAG1 bets, call, I call getting like 18:1 on my gutshot, and other lag calls. Turn is an A which is a tricky card. LAG checks, old guy checks, I take the cautious road and check, other LAG behind me checks it through. Now I'm confused and annoyed I gave a free card. River is a rag but puts 3 diamonds on board (runner-runner). LAG1 bets, old quiet guy now raises. I don't like it and fold. LAG 2 looks pissed and calls 2 cold, and other lag calls. LAG1 to my utter surprise has TT for a flopped set. Old guy shows 65d for the flush and the other LAG shows KK for top set! 2 flopped sets and they manage to get in a total of 1 small bet on the flop and no bets on the turn (vs 2 weak draws in a monster pot no less). The KK guy made some comment after about being afraid I had AA when the ace hit since "I saw a hand like that the other night on TV". OK buddy.
Comments
4 times I got KK, 4 times I lost with KK. Only once to a legitimate AA hand, all the others were crap that should have been folded preflop. 89o, 46s, J3s.
2 times I got AA, 2 times I lost with AA.
3 times I got QQ, 3 times I won, 2 of those times I got quads, the other just a set.
The players were brutally bad, but I just couldn't pry their money away. After many hours I was up only $10.
FYP.
And Mickey, I'm pretty sure you know that I meant generally. I'd expect there's a reason you play almost exlusively B&M right?
And for all those online grinders, go to the B&M every now and then, it's a real ego boost, but also an education in how to make adjustments to different types of games (ie. tight vs. loose, aggressive vs. passive).
Forgot to mention it's a lesson in insane amounts of variance. Your monsters will get run down. At the same time, the few times they do hold up will be monstrous pots. And if you're lucky enough to make the odd set...you're looking at multiway capped action with a ridiculous amounts of pot equity (since a ton of the idiots will call you all the way down while drawing dead).Â
Chin up Beanie...I've taken some awful B&M sessions...but on the other hand you'll have some ridiculously good sessions too if you get even a little help from the deck.
I'm actually not too upset by the insanity, just the speed. As you mention, the variance is ridiculous. However, I really believe that over time, I'll end up profitable. However, when you're used to online/multi-table speed, it just seems so long. At the B&M, I was looking at 20-30 hands/hour, while online I get around 200, so it takes a lot longer to "go long-term" at the casino.
Actually, the fact that it was so slow helped me avoid tilting when I kept getting sucked out. I simply reminded myself that my losses would be recoverable in about an hour online
Any comments from B&M veterans on how aggressive to be on the flop/turn when you know you're good but vulnerable, and also that your opponents simply will not fold?
The Rocks know your pain.... We gave up on low limit poker, ie 2-4, 2-5 for the same reasons you describe. Switch to NL... The variance there is bad too, but at least the calling stations pay for it...Just be prepared to re-buy a time or two before you get going. But anytime you think your ahead bet, and only call if you have a good draw and are getting odds for it, no different than on-line but the adjustment for speed is difficult to manage. Most loosen up a lot when going live, resist the temptation, unless you don't mind the variance. Remember live reads are a lot different than on-line where if you are 4 tabling you probably are only playing cat 1 hands and not paying much attention to others at the table.
If you like come with us to Niagara or possibly the live 1/2NL game after the Burlington tournaments.. It's eye opening.
I'm with Larry for the swings. I feel like a yo-yo playing, but usually cash out up at the end. Hopefully that works at the B&M though..
And as far as Larry, I didn't know they offered heads-up at Seneca
We'll let you know when we're planning our next road-trip...
Yeah monsters get beat by crap but I have also taken giant pots for the same reason when the crap loses to the best hand. Variance is large but I beleive it can me managed properly.
This sounds oddly like "LL poker cannot be beaten because there's too many chasers", which of course is WRONG. Now, I will concede that 2-5 might be tough to beat because of the retarded amount of rake taken (although I still think the super-loose makeup of the game makes up for this).
Beanie's point of how LONG it takes to see the long run of B&M is dead on though. 200hands/hr down to 30 (if it's a quick dealer). The speed factor is definitely an annoyance though (especially when card-dead). I too often find my mind wandering, not paying attention to hands I'm not involved in, etc if playing more mundane stakes. I think compensating by playing higher stakes tends to keep me more focused, but it's also slightly irresponsible from a BR perspective.
Be ruthless. Punish the donkeys. Now, of course there are times when you might have a top pair type hand that you might coinsider waiting for a safe turn card to raise to try to knock out a couple opponents when you're facing multiple draws, but it's going to depend on your relative position, your hand, nature of the board, etc. With a set you can just go nuts since your equity is monstrous. In giant multiway raised pots, none of the loose players wants to fold in the giant pot, so you don't ever need to slowplay hands for deceptive purposes. About the only adjustment you might need to make in a live game is that often people will be way more passive than you'd expect. Don't expect a calling station to check-raise the turn with less than a big 2 pair. Of course you'll occaisionaly have the other extreme with people bluffing every other hand, but it's all about figuring out which are the LAGs, LPs, LAPs, and the occaisional old rock that is only raising AA or KK preflop.
Because the good players usually know when they are beat, and therefore fold to you. The 5/10 players at GBH chase absolutely everything, no matter what.
For most players, you're probably right (I agree with you 100% btw). For the newbie player or those on a smaller bankroll...go ahead.
I've recently come to realize that playing similar stakes live as what I play online, leads me to get bored and lose focus live since the game is so much slower (as Beanie mentioned). Playing slightly higher stakes live (wrt BR comfort level) tends to make me pay more attention to the details of the game, rather than just flying on autopilot...
I agree completely with GTA. I play a fair bit in the casino's and in clubs and the adjustment you have to make from table to table is incredible. If the table is loose passive I always see the flop no matter what 9 2 off.... see the flop. When the table is in maniac mode and always capped preflop how many are seeing the flop 3 6 9 and base your hand selection from there. Is there constantly 4 people raising.... what and make them pay more more more. You can get a ton of variance there simply because some guy will cold call 3 raises with 6 4 off because good cards weren't paying him off, because he felt like it, because he folded the previous 5 hands and was bored, because he felt the rest of the table was playing bad, because...... you get the drift.
In a casino people are there to gamble. that's why they are there. They aren't there to sit and fold for 2 orbits of the table because they were dealt crap.