chasing or not

nastyhornnastyhorn
in Brick & Mortar Casino Talk
hi there wondering what everyone thinks of this hand ........... it is raised pre flop ........the flop is 9c 10h qs........... the raise has pocket kings and comes out swinging ............ one caller .............. the turn is a 3 of club .............. again the raiser comes out swinging and is called ........... the river is a 5 of clubs ......... the board now had 3 clubs on it ............ the raiser checks and the other player bets ......... he hit a runner runner flush............. so is this chasing ......... or not .......... he says no because he played a 8 4 of clubs........... and off the flop he needed a gut shot j for a str8 ........... he also says that he would not have called if he did not have 2 outs on the flop........ so please tell me what do u all think of this hand .......... is he a chaser or not

Comments

  • specialKspecialK
    lol, chaser for sure, calls on the flop with nothing but a gutshot and runner runner flush draw...
  • 4ceps4ceps
    chaser for sure...a loose one at that.

    what was the raise preflop? if it was substantial (at least 3Xbb) then the caller/chaser was pretty loose in calling with low suited 3-gapper ("but they were sooted!")

    what were the bets on the flop & turn? was this a limit or no limit game? if it was a limit game or no-limit but with a small bet, those calls are expected from loose players.  if the bets were substantial in a nolimit game (let's say pot-sized) then the chaser called with the incorrect pot odds.  that's all the raiser could have done to protect his kings, give the wrong pot odds to the chaser.  if the chaser called a pot-sized bet, that would have been strategically incorrect...but we all know this is poker...you may make the wrong decision, but still get lucky.

    it's very common in low limit games for chasers to stay in no matter what (i've had many a suckouts with high pocket pairs).

    in the overall scheme of things if your chaser called everytime he was in the same situation, then the raiser will win most of the pots.
  • MeistroMeistro
    It really depends on all the details of a hand. It is often correct to call with a gutshot on the flop and almost always correct to call with a flush draw on the turn; it is seldom correct to draw to the idiot end of a gutshot.
  • MetroMetro
    I agree. Not enough information to determine.

    The preflop call seems pretty poor. Unless he is LP or BB and there were many callers preflop. If he is calling from the button 2 bets into a 16+ bet flop he may be hoping to get lucky - if he is BB he may just be calling 1 bet into a big pot.

    After the flop he is drawing to the J - again he may bet calling one bet into a 20 bet pot - pretty good return by this time. HOWEVER, he could be adding dead money - anyone with the K is also looking for the J.

    By the turn he now has a flush out and a str8 - neither nuts - but two decent draws if he figures he is only against a big pair(ofcourse the KK is the worse big pair to be against at this time because they eat up his 4 str8 outs). At this time is now calling the big bet - but I am guessing into a substantial pot.


    If I were already in that deep with 8-4c - i may just call - figuring I could also earn an extra bet on the river.


    Again I am not sure how this hand went down - but I think under the right circumstances this could be a less poor play.

    He may also see the other player as being a loose gun - if he is on a small pair - which - many players will bet until contested he may add a few more outs. If the opponent had 77,66,44 - he now has outs for the clubs, str8, and his 8 - if the opponent had 33,22 - he adds his four as an out. It is hard to know what type of hand he was putting his opponent on.

    If he figured his opponent had AK (not clubs) - he is now worried about any J, K, A. But he has any club, any 8 and any 4.


    Hard to tell what the true circumstances were - without knowing how big the pot was and what the opponent is like.

    I would say generally 8-4s is a pretty bad call - then again if i were BB, and there were 9 callers in front of me - I am probably tossing in my extra bet - hoping for the 888 or 576(my suit flop) :)
  • ChrisWinsorChrisWinsor
    Chaser of draws to a draw... Despise playing against people like that... they always seem to hit bs like that. In the end those players will always give their money away with the low end of the straight so I can sleep well at night.
  • waynewayne
    Hey Nastyhorn....its me...(Terry)...I am the person nasthorn was referring to in her question....And yes i did call her on the flop.....but this is a 5-10 cash limit game....her bet was 10 dollars after the flop...i have a gut shot and a draw draw flush ...If it was just one or the other I would not have called her, but because i had a gut draw and a Draw Draw for a flush I did call her....If it was just a gut draw..I would not have called her...if it was just a draw draw flush, I would not have called her, but because it was both I did call...I got lucky and hit my club on the turn....after the turn of course i was going to call and I hit my club....If this was a no limit game and she bets real big,,NO I dont call...if this is a tournament and she bets big, I dont call, but in a 5-10 limit game I call her. I dont think its that bad of a call for a 5-10 limit game. I would not call this chasing in this kind of game. I am new to the game, only being playing about 6 months, maybe in time I will see this differently. ....

    PS Nastyhorn....PLEASE STOP YELLING AT ME !!!!!!
  • nastyhornnastyhorn
    LOL your outta there
  • ScoobyDScoobyD
    I dont think its that bad of a call for a 5-10 limit game.

    I think he admitted it was a donkey call (sort of).
  • ShtebsShtebs
    How can anyone justify playing 8 4 clubs preflop? Maybe if you were a blind and got to limp in. Short of that this was a bad bad beat and he should never have been there.
    For the record, a draw draw (actually known as a backdoor) 8 high flush isn't really a draw. it's a miracle hand and chasing those will cost you in the long run.
    I'm not trying to be mean, these are just simple poker rules that all decent/good players know and now you know as well. :D

    SRS
  • AcidJoeAcidJoe
    I can justify it, because in the blinds (in limit) I"ll play any 2 suited cards for one raise to see what happens. Especially if the raiser is in late position and known to make moves against my blind. Otherwise I can't justify playing it unless your short chipped and first in..... then it's an all in hand.
  • SOSSOS
    AcidJoe wrote:
    I can justify it, because in the blinds (in limit) I"ll play any 2 suited cards for one raise to see what happens.  Especially if the raiser is in late position and known to make moves against my blind.  Otherwise  I can't justify playing it unless your short chipped and first in..... then it's an all in hand. 

    LOL, just because one of the most aggressive players on here justifies it, doesn't mean it's not chasing...it's 100% certified genuine chasing.

    Any time you contemplate a call with this hand pre-flop, you can assume you're already so far behind that you're chasing. If you hit anything more than a pair on the flop, you've caught up, if not, you're still chasing
  • AcidJoeAcidJoe
    SOS wrote:

    LOL, just because one of the most aggressive players on here justifies it, doesn't mean it's not chasing...it's 100% certified genuine chasing.

    Any time you contemplate a call with this hand pre-flop, you can assume you're already so far behind that you're chasing. If you hit anything more than a pair on the flop, you've caught up, if not, you're still chasing

    I think that's a compliment..... I tend to be very aggressive at times. Besides before the flop I've got 2 cards just like everyone else.
  • jpajamasjpajamas
    If this was limit, expected, especially at lower limits. If this was no limit, shoulda swung harder, make the draws highly unfavourable.
  • magithighsmagithighs
    What's wrong with chasing?  Do you really want players to fold a bad draw?  If the casino was going to get the odds you (the made hand) were getting on every bet would they go broke?  Pay off -- nice hand sir -- maybe even "wow great flop for you, my Ace King sucks and I just couldn't let you steal the pot on the river".  It really sucks getting beat, but it sucks more not getting paid with premium hands.

    Cheers
    Magi
  • RivaflushRivaflush
    i personally just wanna get in on this 5/10 game.....i'm down with people calling a preflop raise with 84... :)
  • MeistroMeistro
    SOS wrote:
    AcidJoe wrote:
    I can justify it, because in the blinds (in limit) I"ll play any 2 suited cards for one raise to see what happens.  Especially if the raiser is in late position and known to make moves against my blind.  Otherwise  I can't justify playing it unless your short chipped and first in..... then it's an all in hand. 

    LOL, just because one of the most aggressive players on here justifies it, doesn't mean it's not chasing...it's 100% certified genuine chasing.

    Any time you contemplate a call with this hand pre-flop, you can assume you're already so far behind that you're chasing. If you hit anything more than a pair on the flop, you've caught up, if not, you're still chasing

    A player I respect greatly on another forum who makes his living playing limit hold'em on the internet says that if one player raises and another player cold calls you can show a profit defending with any two suited. He has hundreds of thousands of hands to back up his 'peter_rus theorum'.

    I'm not sure if he's right but the issue is definitely not clear cut.
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