Interesting tournament hand?
There is 1000 people left in the $215 tourny on pokerstars. 700 get paid ($315 is 700th, $160,000 is 1st).
You've got 10,000 in chips, the BB is 600.
Dealt red queens in late position.
UTG (9000 chips) min raises to 1200.
MP bigstack (20,000 chips) re-raises to 2400.
Fold to you. There is still the Cutoff, Button and blinds yet to play behind you. You were just moved to the table and have no reads on the opposition.
Do you:
A. Call
B. Re-raise 50% of your chips
C. Re-raise ALL IN
D. Fold
You've got 10,000 in chips, the BB is 600.
Dealt red queens in late position.
UTG (9000 chips) min raises to 1200.
MP bigstack (20,000 chips) re-raises to 2400.
Fold to you. There is still the Cutoff, Button and blinds yet to play behind you. You were just moved to the table and have no reads on the opposition.
Do you:
A. Call
B. Re-raise 50% of your chips
C. Re-raise ALL IN
D. Fold
Comments
i have to say that i would fold... your other options seem a little terrible, either way there are 5 to act behind you (incl. IR) and it's really hard to put IR on any particular hand, but in this situation i have the guy who just reraised on atleast AK so i'm at best in a coinflip here and IR is definately calling or raising...
The UTG raiser may see that both yourself and the MP are still in the pot and just call the 1200 raise. Then, you see a flop and take it from there. (assuming all others fold or call)
BB = 600; bet to me = 2400 and I am folding preflop with QQ in late postion?
I say 'nay'.
I am trying to win that tournament. If the board comes AQ9 rainbow and MP has AA - god bless em, I'm out. If the same board comes and he has AQo - tyvm! If the board shows an A or K with no Q and there is action before it gets to me (as there usually would be), I muck and wait for the next hand.
I don't agree with folding these Qs preflop because the price to pay to see a flop (so far) is not one that to me is more than the hand is worth.
Failing reads this is a push on mondays wednesdays fridays and sundays and a fold on tuesdays thursdays and saturdays....
I would probably push, but I'm reckless...Conceivably the minraise is weakness with a playable but not great hand, and the minreraise is a raise that closes out the blinds without overcommitting himself. What happened?
Calling is a possible problem. I see this a what Harrington describes as the sandwich play situation. If I call here, it costs 1/4 of my stack, and it is quite possible that UTG moves allin, forcing me to follow him or fold. I think if you call you are already pot committed and any additional raises means I am allin. There are still 4 players I have no info about, so it could get even scarier.
Reraising 50% is a mistake IMO. You are definately pot committed in this situation, so moving in would be necessary at some point. May as well do it now, not later.
Allin is an option to consider. My hand is strong, I am short stacked, although not desperate yet. Getting it allin now may make my opponents fold if they are on drawing hand like AK or AQ. I am huge favorite against all pairs except AA and KK. Moving allin also would take away my positional advantage for this hand if I am called, however.
Folding is the smart play in my opinion unless the blinds are going to double very soon. I think there is a better place to make a move than this.
stp
I am fearful of the min re-raise by the big stack. I thnk the raise seems to scream GO OVER THE TOP! of me.
Calling is a mistake. THe UTG is probably going to all in.
Raising 50% is just as good as going all in except it will just prolong it.
All in is what I may do if my gut it telling me you are up against two AK or under pairs.
I have a hard time folding QQ. But in this instance you are most likely running into a better hand.
Honestly I would have probably pushed in. But I do a lot of donk moves.
Personally, I'd fold. Considering the buy-in and how close to the money you are (I assume field was about 5000, so outlasted 80% already), I'd give most players credit for being at least decent. Also, this close to the bubble is usually when everyone tightens up to make the money, or gets a little loose to steal the blinds. The min re-raise by MP isn't enough to be stealing, so I'd give him credit for a monster. If he shows AK I'd be a bit disappointed at folding, but I'm expecting to see AA/KK here. However, that's with time to think - heat of the moment, it's a coin-flip what I'd actually do...
You have roughyl 15 times the BB? With 300 people left you aren't going to finish in the money any time soon, all-in best option. Take the risk going vs AA/KK A/K + JJ or something like that. You can't afford to make this lay down and expect to outlast 300 more people with the blind surely increasing once or twice with in that period.
You have to assume that atleast 50% of the time these players are willing to play for all their chips with the hands they are min raising with.
You are almost definitely assured of not facing players with two undercards to your QQ (ie. 78, etc) or two players with underpairs. More likely is a combination of overpairs, overcards (AK) and possibly one of the players having an underpair (say 99-JJ).
So the basis for folding from the above assumptions
1. If you move all-in you get called by the overpair and overcards and possibly by some of the underpairs but most likely force them to fold. So against the average of the range of hands that calls you here (which is most of the range of hands we have the opponent on) you are not in good shape.
2. Calling likely results in any player who has your overpair simply moving in and forcing you lay down the hand. The problem is a player with AK may make the same all-in move, are you still comfortable laying down your QQ after putting 1/4 of your stack in the middle by a player who is moving you off with AK?
3. Raising? you're just making a two step bid to get all your chips in pre-flop, same as going all-in. The only difference is you get to feel nautious about calling off the other 1/2 of your chips, when two guys move in.
When do we get to find out what happened?
The first player could have any hand since we have no reads yet. He could have a pair of nines and the next raiser could have AK. Sure they could have KK-AA but they may not.
Perhaps the first player made a weak bet to signal strength when actually he has a weakish hand that wants to see a flop cheaply. (I've never pulled this move
Either way (and there are plenty more) I would call here and then fold to a raise since that would clarify their hands for me.
This from last week’s blog.
There are 1000 people left in a $215 online tourney on pokerstars. 700 get paid ($315 is 700th, $160,000 is 1st).
You've got 10,000 in chips, the BB is 600.
Dealt red queens in late position.
UTG (9000 chips) min raises to 1200.
MP bigstack (20,000 chips) re-raises to 2400.
Fold to you. There is still the Cutoff, Button and blinds yet to play behind you. You were just moved to the table and have no reads on the opposition.
Do you:
A. Call
B. Re-raise 50% of your chips
C. Re-raise ALL IN
D. Fold
I posted this to PokerForum.ca and UnitedPokerForum.com. Plus several readers responded directly via email. Here is a survey of the results:
A. Call – 7 votes
B. Re-raise 50% of your chips – 0 votes
C. Re-raise ALL IN – 9 votes
D. Fold – 12 votes
I guess we know why it’s an interesting hand – a wide array of answers and a fairly close split.
Here are my thoughts…
One’s opinion will vary a lot according to what you think is “typical†and that will depend a lot upon what sorts of games you usually play in. Your answer may vary according to whether or not you are at the WSOP or you buddy’s garage.
I think there is merit to each of fold, call, or all-in and I would not fault anyone for choosing any of those options.
At a full table QQ will encounter AA or KK 8.4% of the time (thank you Brian Alspach). Our hero's job is to find out if THIS occasion is one of those 8.4% of times. And, I submit that the likelihood is much higher considering that there has been a raise and a re-raise. Once there has been a re-raise, the re-raiser has a fairly narrow range of hands. I note that there are other factors -- the original raiser is early and the re-raiser is not short-stacked. If the re-raiser was very short stacked I would give his raise much less credit.
So, what range of hands will I put the re-raiser on? I probably give him AK, AQ, AA to TT. How does QQ play against this range of hands? QQ is 55% and the re-raiser is 45%. We have a VERY slight edge. I am NEVER shy about an edge this big, get the money in. And, for this reason I do not think that moving in is a bad play. Again, I prefer others.
Are their other factors? Yes. There is an early position raiser. He will, of course, have a much wider range of hands. But, the range of hands that he will call an all-in re-re-raise will by quite small. Probably AK, AA, KK, QQ, JJ and against that range of hands QQ is a slight dog. I do note, however, that if he does call you there will be lots of dead money in the pot.
The biggest factor, to me, is that you have position. I LOVE to call in position in no-limit hold'em. If an ace flops and there is a big bet, I fold. Could he be pushing me off my QQ with a hand like JJ? He could be and if he is, more power to him. I called a re-raise in position and an ace flopped -- if he wants to bet in that spot then his aggression will be
rewarded since I will think that he either has an ace or gives me credit for one. If I flop an overpair then all the money is almost certainly going in. If I run into KK or AA, so be it, but I would have run into them anyway by pushing pre-flop. My feeling is that with position and QQ I still stand to make as much money whereas I will lose less.
Consider the case in which one or my opponents has AK (a pretty good possibility). If I move in pre-flop he is making the correct play by calling (dead money in the pot). But if I call and the flop comes J-7-2 what will happen? He will make the wrong play by betting (good for me, thanks Mr Sklansky) OR he will potentially make the wrong play by check calling or he will check and fold which is OK for me since if avoids the occasions in
which he has AK And it hits the turn or river. How does AK make money against QQ? It gets the QQ all in before the AK hits.
A shocking number of players do not understand “races.†You will hear them say "I didn't want to get in a race." Well, if there is enough money in the pot you MUST take the race. That's called positive EV and it's what poker is all about. The bigger issue is
manipulating the size of the pot so that you do not HAVE to get it all in as a dog if you can help it.
Read this article from Matt Matros from CardPlayer then you should
(http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/archives/showarticle.php?a_id=15093&m_id=65576).
I agree with everything he says. To sumarize: A big stack has a lot of value. Yup. No doubt about it. Should you take a negative EV shot to get it? I don't think so. But, you should take a positive EV shot even when you are a dog.
In no-limit I try to do two things: (a) avoid guessing; and (b) leave myself an escape valve. In this case, moving in is guessing. I think QQ is too strong to fold and I want more information as cheaply as I can get it.