21.00 pre-flop raise

The Prophet 22

Seeing as I took a beating for my pre-flop play in my post "Floping the nuts Part II". I have a question for you, while maybe two. When someone raises you 21.00 in a 1/2 game, what 2 cards do you have to have to make the call? And question 2, what two cards are they playing?

Prophet 22

PS You can make the chip stacks even, time on the table is 1 hour.

ChrisWinsor

all depends, do you mean straight up he raises it by 21? If so he's either overbetting his hand, or is pulling a really dumb bluff. I'd only call with queens or up...

13CARDS

IMO, all other things being equal, with no more information than what is in the OP, I put the raiser on 10-10, J-J or Q-Q. A $21 raise on a $1/$2 game seems to me that he really likes his cards, but does not really want any action, for fear of having them cracked by a weak ace. To call, I need Q-Q, K-K or A-A, unless I have a weak ace that I feel I might want to see a flop with. If the Ace hits, gold! If I miss, muck 'em.

OUT

HP_John

I've seen this often made when there are lots of limpers, then someone will make a big raise to weed out the junk. It doesn't necessarlly mean they don't have a monster, but many people make this move w/ just 99, 1010, AQ in a unraised pot w/ many limpers.

Numerous times I've seen someone make a big open-raise then show a vulnerable hand when everyone folds ie 99, 1010, AQ. In this case, they often don't want action.

A buddy of mine routinely open-raises for $20 w/ AA & KK in a 1/2 game, sometimes he gets great action because they put him on a vulnerable hand. Other times, no one calls.

pkrfce9

It is important to point out this was a pot-size raise. Depending in the person, this could represent any 2 cards. God knows I've played with enough clowns that will do that. But... I'd put the person on more than pure schlock unless they were feeling very happy, that is for sure.

What cards do you need to call? Of course, it depends. Seeing as you were last to act, you can broaden your range. However, you would be out of position for the rest of the hand so this would move me into a narrower range.

Given the stack sizes, you can only win about 10x what you are now calling if go to a showdown. Of course, you could lose a lot more and you may decide to fold later after putting even more in. With A7s, I have to expect you'll have to do a lot better than top pair to win the pot. So 2pr and up is needed. Others have posted some of those odds but I'd estimate your odds at maybe 2 or 3% to hit something on the flop. In other words, JUST SAY NO!

What kind of hands can make this call in the given circumstances. For sure, JJ and up, AK, maybe some stronger suited aces. To go much broader than this, you have to know what range of hands you could be up against.

13CARDS

pkrfce9 wrote:

It is important to point out this was a pot-size raise.

Seeing as you were last to act

Given the stack sizes, you can only win about 10x what you are now calling if go to a showdown.

Where did you get all of this information that was NOT in the OP???

stpboy

I'll take a shot at this.  A typical decent player will make a raise like this with one of two types of  hands:

a) A hand that can cost them some money ie. one that they will have a difficult time folding post flop.  This would include (QQ, JJ and most definitely AK)  I would say that this really reaks of AK in most cases but could easily be any hand in the range of those in brackets.  I'm saying typical because I want to eliminate those players who really overvalue hands such as (AQ, AJ, A10, A9, 99, 88, KQ, KJ etc).  If I was playing against one of those players that overvalue such hands, I would call with any hand above 66/AJ and figure I was racing.  I would lean towards calling with the pocket pairs as I tend to think players that overvalue seem to overvalue A10 and the such more then they do medium pairs.  

b) When last to act with a bunch of limpers in front of them, a typical decent player will seldomly but occasionally make this raise as a complete steal.  I would think if it's a steal the player could really do it with any two cards.  If I felt it was a steal I wouldn't call, I would raise (either preflop or flop).  

To answer your question, what hands can you call with?  The answer is, a hand that can typically beat the player.  What can typically beat a player that will more often than not raise $21 preflop with a premium scary hand, well AA and KK come to mind.  Although in all honesty I would likely call/raise with anything above 99 and this would include AK (not AQ).  

I see players betting obnoxious amounts all the time preflop, you included Brent with very sub-par hands.  I think even the other night you re-raised me with A10 and 88 preflop.  I'm not talking raise, I'm talking re-raise.  The way I play against you is to make sure I go in with the best hand.  This is easier to do if you can get a good read on your opponent and know what their betting patterns typically mean.  

My general point in all of this would be that when you are calling a raise of $21 you need to be going in with a plan.  Is your plan to outplay the opponent?  And if it is, Do you have an established history with your opponent?  What is your table image in regards to that player?  Does the player have the ablitity to fold to you?  
Your plan could very well be to see a flop as you think your racing, hit two pair or better (a set) and you have to figure you're good.  But will you get pair off if you hit two pair?  Either way, I don't think you can go into a hand like this just hoping to flop a hand that you'll only hit 3% of the time.  If your read is that good that you know if you hit an ace or flush then you'll be good.  I'd say it's still not worth it against a typical decent player.  

Anyway, before I ramble on more.  I'm wondering what your thoughts were on calling with the A7 preflop?  What was your plan going in?  Perhaps if you would have explained that people wouldn't have jumped all over your call.  

stp

pkrfce9

13CARDS wrote:

pkrfce9 wrote:

It is important to point out this was a pot-size raise.

Seeing as you were last to act

Given the stack sizes, you can only win about 10x what you are now calling if go to a showdown.

Where did you get all of this information that was NOT in the OP???

You have to study this post:

Seeing as I took a beating for my pre-flop play in my post "Floping the nuts Part II".

The Prophet 22

This was meant to be a general question. Playing 1/2 games where people straddle and re-straddle I find this to be an interesting question.

How about .50 in a .25-50 game and someone raises 5.00

How about a 5/10 NL game. 40.00 standard to see the flop.

I would say the average flop that night was a 12.00 call to see a flop. The hand that everyone is talking about is given in the thread "Floping the Nuts Part II"

The woman raised 21.00 which by those involved made it a pot size. I had to put 21.00 into a pot that had 45.00.

Second, I knew the woman I was playing against. She was capable of playing any two cards, as she had raised from her auto straddle 4 times. My thought process was this, I have an Ace and I am probably ahead at this point in time with this card. Now for the most overrated play in poker. Add the suit 7, I can see the flop. I believe this woman to be playing the cards in her hand, not playing me and also has no idea of what I am holding and in reality was looking for a fold and not a call.

Everyone says I am out of position. True enough, I believe I needed to take charge of the hand so I have the chips and am willing to bet. As I said, if need be I will try to out play her. After she re-raised me, I put her all -in before she could get her chips in the pot. And tried to remain strong.

I believe everyone is focused on the flop.
Lets change the flop to rainbow, 6 3 A.

I bet that same pot bet or 50.00. Greg knows me and has played with me many many times and will atest to this. Remember she has Jack 10 spades.
I believe she folds. If she goes all in, I fold, hey I lost 50.00 bucks. Have to work to get that back. That's poker.

I am suprised Folded has chimmed in on this with his 20.00 raise with 4 2. Or Shopsy with his J 2 off suit re-raise of Folded on Monday night.

I know different players who fall in love with A9, 7 8, KQ, 10 8, and if I am playing those players, I know I have to have that hand beat to win the hand because they will generally bet those hands because tehy are in love with them.

Prophet 22

The Prophet 22

Forget previous post,

Any two cards baby!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AcidJoe

I watched on guy go all in on the button with 8 limpers in a $1/2 game with 22. He was called by AJ s (BB) and everyone folded. AJ rivered a J to win. I'm not sure which was a worse play. By the way it was the button first hand he played after buying in for $100

pkrfce9

You are bang on about playing the player not the cards. From the sounds of things, she *is* playing the player, not her cards at all. But so were you.

The problem with A7s is I don't think it is much more than 60-65% favourite against 2 cards good enough to raise into 5 others. You got a miraculous flop indeed and that made your decision much simpler. What if it came 10 high? Say your 7 made middle pair? Then it's lot harder to play.

You brought up the concept of a flop with an Ace. Even if you catch your Ace, that's only about 1 flop out of 5. So 4 times out of 5 you throw away 25 bucks and maybe half the time you hit the ace, you might be good. And when you do hit it, is she foolish enough to pay you off with a worse hand? I don't see the risk/reward here but maybe others can comment on this. But it worked out great and you played her perfectly so kudos to you. Nothing like nailing the table maniac.

I'm curious about the auto straddle. Is this something the table has to agree with? It seems to lead to a lot of high variance play. Probably lots of people like this but I'm sure lots don't as well.

QueenNine

The Prophet 22 wrote:

When someone raises you 21.00 in a 1/2 game, what 2 cards do you have to have to make the call?  Prophet 22

Q9 baby!!

PokerNut2094

pkrfce,

The live straddle or auto straddle is very common in the Detroit casinos and "no", the players at the table do not have to agree with it. I have asked many players who do this as for an explanation as to the advantage they get. There is no good explanation other than it creates a lot of action, but often the live straddle folds to a raise or is involved in a pot with two bad cards. Occassionally, they will wake up with a big hand and get to re-raise or slowplay a monster.

I have seen it many times and I have never seen it result any success for the player doing it

ChrisWinsor

when in rome.....


:2c :7d YA BABY!

AcidJoe

MDSGuy wrote:

The Prophet 22 wrote:

When someone raises you 21.00 in a 1/2 game, what 2 cards do you have to have to make the call?  Prophet 22

Q9 baby!!

Only if it's suited..... then I"m all in

Dave Scharf

Back to the original question...

If I know nothing about the $21 raiser then I probably limit myself to AA through JJ.

There are probably not good implied odds here since the stacks are probably not that big.

Otherwise I need to know a lot more about the player and stack sizes... if we each have $400 I might call with a lot of hands and look to win a big one.

Meistro

This really depends on stack size and how likely opponent is to stack off with top pair / overpair.